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Unread 11-27-2010, 09:57 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim1611 View Post
According to the video that came with my Miller mig welder pulling is what will give the best penetration. They recommend pushing on thinner materials where there's a danger of burning through. From what I've tried they are correct.
Were they describing using those methods with flux core or solid wire w/gas shield?

Rich

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Unread 11-27-2010, 10:11 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by rixcj View Post
Were they describing using those methods with flux core or solid wire w/gas shield?

Rich
Rich they were using solid wire with gas. My machine will run flux core but I don't use it. Actually I'd rather use my stick welder if the gas method won't work. There are time when the stick is best. Outside in the wind for example, I know flux core will work as well but I'd rather not have the time or expense in switching.

Flux does have it's place however, they all do.
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Unread 11-27-2010, 10:30 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rixcj View Post
You're only supposed to pull, or drag, when using flux core wire.

If you're using a gas shielding, you want to push the gun. This clears a path for you ( the gas removes the comtaminating oxygen ). The bead will also penetrate better, and lay flatter than if you dragged the gun.

Rich
Pulling in ANY wirefeed process penetrates better,i've never heard of "clearing a path" with the gas.as long as the gas is set right there is no problems with contaminations at all.

It does not penetrate better when pushing,when pushing you are riding on top of the puddle,,causing less penetration/heat INTO the base metal,pulling burns into the base metal than fills,pushing keeps the heat on the puddle further away from the base metal.
Pushing is just a better looking flatter bead,but if you know what you are doing you can get just a good looking bead pulling vs pushing AND better penetration.
FACTS..not opinions....
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Unread 11-27-2010, 10:48 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim1611 View Post
Rich they were using solid wire with gas. My machine will run flux core but I don't use it. Actually I'd rather use my stick welder if the gas method won't work. There are time when the stick is best. Outside in the wind for example, I know flux core will work as well but I'd rather not have the time or expense in switching.

Flux does have it's place however, they all do.
The reason that I asked is because, in that particular case of pulling when using sloid wire, I disagree with their recommendation.

Now, I realize that the Miller guys should be at the top of the welding information food chain, but I have been welding for a living since 1974.

I've done nuclear and non-nuclear welding, every method of manual and semi-automatic welding that you can think of, and lots of it. I was a welding instructor for several years at a submarine manufacturer, and at a local college. I'm not trying to impress anyone here, I'm just trying to make a point that I've been well schooled, and based on my experiences, I disagree.

If I was welding two pieces of 16 ga. sheet metal together, at a seam, and I was pushing the gun, and continued to keep going without stopping, I would stand a good chance of eventually blowing through. The gun angle, when pushing, is continually pre-heating the surface ahead of you. Eventually the heat becomes so great, that if you don't stop, you'll blow through. This also means that you're getting great penetration.

So...you have to learn to push the gun, and know when to stop, before blowing through. This way, you get the good penetration, and a strong weld.

I use the "back step" method. This means that (after the pieces are all tacked up) I'll start at about 6 inches from the end of the seam, and weld those (last) 6 inches. Then, I'll start 6 inches behind that bead, and weld up to the start my first bead. Then start 6 inches behind the second bead, and weld up to the start of the second bead. continue in this manner until the weld is completed.

With this method, the heat never gets too great ahead of you. Usually, there's less warping, too.

I originally used the example of 16 ga. sheet metal. I chose that thickness to illustrate the possibility of blowing through. On thicker metal, the odds of blowing through are much less. The backstep method is still good to use on the thicker stuff, like .125, .187, or .250" thick material.

Getting back to the 16, or 18, or whatever thin gauge metal guys use for tub repairs, you actually could drag the solid wire, if you choose to do so. The reason I say this, is because, it doesn't take much to penetrate this thin stuff, and there is LESS of a chance of blowing through. I know it sounds contradictory to my opening example. I was just trying to create a picture of blowing through a piece of metal, and I figured that if you pictured something this thin, you'd get it.

I guess the bottom line is, we all have to experiment, and see what works for each of us, individually. This post is just what I've experienced.

Rich
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Unread 11-27-2010, 10:54 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rixcj View Post
The reason that I asked is because, in that particular case of pulling when using sloid wire, I disagree with their recommendation.

Now, I realize that the Miller guys should be at the top of the welding information food chain, but I have been welding for a living since 1974.

I've done nuclear and non-nuclear welding, every method of manual and semi-automatic welding that you can think of, and lots of it. I was a welding instructor for several years at a submarine manufacturer, and at a local college. I'm not trying to impress anyone here, I'm just trying to make a point that I've been well schooled, and based on my experiences, I disagree.

If I was welding two pieces of 16 ga. sheet metal together, at a seam, and I was pushing the gun, and continued to keep going without stopping, I would stand a good chance of eventually blowing through. The gun angle, when pushing, is continually pre-heating the surface ahead of you. Eventually the heat becomes so great, that if you don't stop, you'll blow through. This also means that you're getting great penetration.

So...you have to learn to push the gun, and know when to stop, before blowing through. This way, you get the good penetration, and a strong weld.

I use the "back step" method. This means that (after the pieces are all tacked up) I'll start at about 6 inches from the end of the seam, and weld those (last) 6 inches. Then, I'll start 6 inches behind that bead, and weld up to the start my first bead. Then start 6 inches behind the second bead, and weld up to the start of the second bead. continue in this manner until the weld is completed.

With this method, the heat never gets too great ahead of you. Usually, there's less warping, too.

I originally used the example of 16 ga. sheet metal. I chose that thickness to illustrate the possibility of blowing through. On thicker metal, the odds of blowing through are much less. The backstep method is still good to use on the thicker stuff, like .125, .187, or .250" thick material.

Getting back to the 16, or 18, or whatever thin gauge metal guys use for tub repairs, you actually could drag the solid wire, if you choose to do so. The reason I say this, is because, it doesn't take much to penetrate this thin stuff, and there is LESS of a chance of blowing through. I know it sounds contradictory to my opening example. I was just trying to create a picture of blowing through a piece of metal, and I figured that if you pictured something this thin, you'd get it.

I guess the bottom line is, we all have to experiment, and see what works for each of us, individually. This post is just what I've experienced.

Rich
You've got some great experience Rich. That's why I maily read on these kind of threads and say very little. Points well taken. As they are with several of guys I see posting on here.
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Unread 11-27-2010, 11:02 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Ironworker709 View Post
Pulling in ANY wirefeed process penetrates better,i've never heard of "clearing a path" with the gas.as long as the gas is set right there is no problems with contaminations at all.

It does not penetrate better when pushing,when pushing you are riding on top of the puddle,,causing less penetration/heat INTO the base metal,pulling burns into the base metal than fills,pushing keeps the heat on the puddle further away from the base metal.
Pushing is just a better looking flatter bead,but if you know what you are doing you can get just a good looking bead pulling vs pushing AND better penetration.
FACTS..not opinions....
Tell those facts to the welding engineers that write up the technique sheets for Electric Boat, the nuclear submarine builders. Our technique sheets require that when we are doing spray mig welding, to hold the gun at a 15 degree backward angle, and push the gun. This is true of any of the welding processes that require a shielding gas.

Do you drag the tig torch when tig welding? That's not recommended, either. You can always get away with dragging, and sometimes you don't have a choice, because of the joint design, but pushing a gas cup IS the recommended method.

The reason that the bead is flatter when pushing, is because it's penetrating the metal deeper.

I, personally, don't just push ahead steadily, I oscellate. I'll push ahead, and penetrate ("excavate" the metal with the heat of the arc), then return to fill the excavation.

But if your methods haven't failed you, stay with them. I'm just throwing my teachings out there. My company has spent well over $100K training me. I know that sounds absurd, but it's true.

Rich
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Unread 11-27-2010, 12:25 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by rixcj View Post
Tell those facts to the welding engineers that write up the technique sheets for Electric Boat, the nuclear submarine builders. Our technique sheets require that when we are doing spray mig welding, to hold the gun at a 15 degree backward angle, and push the gun. This is true of any of the welding processes that require a shielding gas.

I work Nuclear Power plants regularly all over the USA,mainly for Southern Nuclear anymore,also Savannah River Site in South Carolina which is all government work on nuclear technology and old nuclear waste from the cold war as an Unlimited weldor and i have seen VERY few procedures requiring a push technique on any wirefeed,they do have a few on maybe a lighter base metal,but on all heavy base metal its pulled,it maybe different in you're nuclear submarine for some odd reason .

Do you drag the tig torch when tig welding? That's not recommended, either. You can always get away with dragging, and sometimes you don't have a choice, because of the joint design, but pushing a gas cup IS the recommended method.

this has NOTHING to do to with wirefeed,the ONLY reason TIG torch is held in that position at all times is because the way the PROCESS works..burn ,then feed the filler in FRONT,no way to feed the wire from behind without hindering the weldment.....

The reason that the bead is flatter when pushing, is because it's penetrating the metal deeper.
I am sorry my freind,but that couldn't be FURTHER from the truth..it's flatter for the fact you are PUSHING the puddle ahead of the weldment,thus causing it to lay flatter,not penetrating more...lol

I, personally, don't just push ahead steadily, I oscellate. I'll push ahead, and penetrate ("excavate" the metal with the heat of the arc), then return to fill the excavation.

But if your methods haven't failed you, stay with them. I'm just throwing my teachings out there. My company has spent well over $100K training me. I know that sounds absurd, but it's true.

Rich

It maybe different procedures where you work at currently which does NOT make the common knowledge in the welding industry that pulling wirefeed gets MORE penetration than pushing a wrong FACT..it just pain old does NOt work that way...different procedures for different reasons,,type's of base metal,preheat factors,how the base metal reacts to different processes and fillers and heat...etc..but it is STILL a FACT that Pulling wirefeed gets more penetration than pushing,its just common sense and knowledge to any professional weldor.

I've also had uncountable schooling and training and on hands learning since 1978,but that doesnt make facts any different whether i like to pull or push a wirefeed,bottom line is pulling penetrates more than pushing..it's just old school and common knowledge in the industry
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Unread 11-27-2010, 12:56 PM   #38
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It seems that this thread has gotten way off topic from the OP's question.

I for one, have always read and practiced pulling the gun when I need deeper penetration. As noted, it all depends on the object being welded. You cannot always get the gun where you need it and sometimes you have to pull and sometimes you have to push.

The theory is that the front of the arc is hotter and you are putting fresh wire into the front side of the puddle when pulling.

When pushing the gun, the wire is getting fed into the back side of the puddle and therefore will not penetrate as much.

Just my $.02
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Unread 11-27-2010, 01:36 PM   #39
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Yeah, we probably weld a completely different way than the rest of the industry, because our steel ranges from 1" - 6" thick, must pass X-ray and UT testing, so therefore it is unique. Thanks for straightening me out on that!

Rich
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Unread 11-27-2010, 02:24 PM   #40
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Please don't post on here if your going to make fun of me, but me and my buddy where laying some beeds and wanted to see what yall thought.

thanks
^^^^^^This is just a reminder of what the purpose of this thread is. ^^^^^^

OP, I think you've gotten off to a decent start, read what others here have posted and use what works best for you.
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Unread 11-28-2010, 06:15 AM   #41
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It seems that this thread has gotten way off topic from the OP's question.

I for one, have always read and practiced pulling the gun when I need deeper penetration. As noted, it all depends on the object being welded. You cannot always get the gun where you need it and sometimes you have to pull and sometimes you have to push.

The theory is that the front of the arc is hotter and you are putting fresh wire into the front side of the puddle when pulling.

When pushing the gun, the wire is getting fed into the back side of the puddle and therefore will not penetrate as much.

Just my $.02
Yes and i am guilty..but..as always any more i try to stay out of these convos because of the abundance of very knowledgable weldors we have on this forum,but when a person is learning and mis-imformed of a tecnique or process i generaly jump in.
The OP is learning and using wirefeed and was Mis-Imformed that pushing is better penetrating than pulling.
There has been ALOT of GREAT advice,just to have to take it all for what it's worth and research and practice.

One more peice of advice,when buying new wire,never go cheap,it's a night and day difference when running a cheap wire vs good wire.
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"How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young,compassionate with the aged,sympathetic with the striving,and tolerant with the weak and strong--because someday YOU will have been all of these"....George Washington Carver

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Unread 11-28-2010, 06:21 AM   #42
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Yes and i am guilty..but..as always any more i try to stay out of these convos because of the abundance of very knowledgable weldors we have on this forum,but when a person is learning and mis-imformed of a tecnique or process i generaly jump in.
The OP is learning and using wirefeed and was Mis-Imformed that pushing is better penetrating than pulling.
There has been ALOT of GREAT advice,just to have to take it all for what it's worth and research and practice.

One more peice of advice,when buying new wire,never go cheap,it's a night and day difference when running a cheap wire vs good wire.
I'm glad this thread did get Hi jacked for a minute. I have been confused about this issue of push or pull when using MIG with Gas... I have had "people in the know", tell me different opinions. Now I know for sure.
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Unread 11-28-2010, 05:05 PM   #43
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Maybe it's been mentioned but something very simple that does get overlooked in regard to a wire welder, either gas or flux, is to take care of the cord that the wire runs through. It's extremely important. Don't drop stuff on it, drag it through metal chips or get any sharp bends in it while you're welding. That can have an impact of the welds. Just imagine trying to push wire around a tight corner as opposed to a straight line.
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Unread 11-28-2010, 11:13 PM   #44
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Maybe it's been mentioned but something very simple that does get overlooked in regard to a wire welder, either gas or flux, is to take care of the cord that the wire runs through. It's extremely important. Don't drop stuff on it, drag it through metal chips or get any sharp bends in it while you're welding. That can have an impact of the welds. Just imagine trying to push wire around a tight corner as opposed to a straight line.
I had to replace the liner a few weeks ago due to a kink. I wouldn't feed the wire correctly. I thought it was a drive wheel but nope. At least it was cheap around $12.00.
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Unread 11-29-2010, 08:45 AM   #45
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A pretty good explanation of pushing vs. pulling and a hot chick (Jessi Combs) welding to boot:

Jessi Combs teaches us how to lay a bead in "Welding 102"

The tutorial is near the end but it's all good!

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