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Unread 02-06-2011, 08:38 PM   #16
Ironworker709
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1222 View Post
Well I don稚 have any facts in what I知 saying other than no professional chassis builders that I have known or heard of has ever built a roll cage out of pipe.

You keep asking for proof of pipe versus tube for roll cage construction from me but I致e yet to see your proof in the matter either. Show me where a professional builder uses pipe instead of tubing. I知 not talking about Bubba Motor sports up in the hills but long established builders.

We are talking about race vehicles not the construction buildings. Should we then use drywall instead of sheet metal or aluminum?
I still have NOT seen your "explanation" as to WHY tube is stronger than Pipe when they are the same exact material and manufacturing process?...(keep avoiding it)

I wasn't asking for links or "proof"..i was asking you theory as to WHY??

Search many of the forums and professional websites and you WILL find people using Pipe as roll cages succesfully and roll overs where it held up just as good or better than tubing...i won't put the ones in here because it's other competing websites to this one..i think you get the picture.

Oh..and what you call "Bubba Motorsports in the hills"?..those type of people are the ones who actualy have the nuts to prove designs and think outside the box..where did NASCAR and NHRA come from?..did it suddenly "pop up" in a million dollar shop/outfit?....

I am still waiting for the reasoning as why the same exact material and manufacturing processes Pipe is weaker than Tubing in the same manner?

The bottom line AGAIN is...Tube is more Popular for the ease of measurements and availabilty of the "tube" bender dies out there.

Pipe comes in HREW,DOM,4130,4240 along with alot of other alloy and high carbon materials..so PLEASE..explain to me the reasoning for this advice....

You should never use pipe for a roll cage; it is way to brittle and can shatter upon impact. Forget the HF pipe benders and invest in a true tubing bender. Leave pipe to the plumbers where it belongs

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Unread 02-06-2011, 09:08 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironworker709 View Post
I still have NOT seen your "explanation" as to WHY tube is stronger than Pipe when they are the same exact material and manufacturing process?...(keep avoiding it)
Are you blind? Go back a few posts and reread or look what you wrote at the bottom of your last post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironworker709 View Post
Oh..and what you call "Bubba Motorsports in the hills"?..those type of people are the ones who actualy have the nuts to prove designs and think outside the box..where did NASCAR and NHRA come from?..did it suddenly "pop up" in a million dollar shop/outfit?....
Come on already.


Anyhow, I値l still build my cages with tubing and you go with pipe. To each his own.
This is turning into a shouting match and I知 kinda at a disadvantage as far as how I should respond. You go your way I値l go mine.
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Unread 02-06-2011, 09:18 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironworker709 View Post
...It is ALWAYS an option as long as it is the right material,there is NO WHERE in the NHRA or IHRA class books that says "roll cages and chassis MUST be Tube ONLY"....it only explains it HAS to be DOM or Chromoly an how many points the cage must be made in..
From the NHRA website:
...The rollbar must be constructed of minimum 1 セ inch o.d. x .118 inch wall mild steel tubing, or 1 セ x .083 chrome moly tubing, and must conform to the following diagram:...
http://www.nhraonline.com/contacts/tech_faq.html

It's probably best to say generally pipe is rated for internal carrying temperature and pressure where as tubing is for structural construction.
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Unread 02-07-2011, 07:45 PM   #19
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pipe is also not sized so there could and is thin spots and is not always round as tube is sized so the ID and OD are the same over the length....
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Unread 02-08-2011, 11:19 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tangotag View Post
From the NHRA website:
...The rollbar must be constructed of minimum 1 セ inch o.d. x .118 inch wall mild steel tubing, or 1 セ x .083 chrome moly tubing, and must conform to the following diagram:...
http://www.nhraonline.com/contacts/tech_faq.html

It's probably best to say generally pipe is rated for internal carrying temperature and pressure where as tubing is for structural construction.
it actualy means "TUBULAR" shape..not square or rectangular...etc...which INCLUDES pipe dimensions because pipe is a tubular shape

So i didn't start another arguement for those who know nothing of what they talk about but just read alot of internet myths and opinions..i went right to the source and emailed a question to the NHRA website Tech

Emailed this at noon today while i am on lunch hour in my office at work to tech@nhra.com word for word....

Can anyone use pipe for the roll cage as long as it is pipe..like say 1 1/2" pipe which has an outside measurement of well over 1 5/8"?

There seems to be the on-going arguements all over the place about the same exact material and manufacturing process of pipe vs tubing and the only actual difference is the way it is made for measuring purposes..pipe being inside diameter measurements and tube being outside measurements.

I was wondering this because i have access to a lot of Chromoly and DOM piping much cheaper than it would be to go out and buy Tubing,i am an International Ironworker by trade/career and can get the pipe on discounts through my company i work for and i have hands on and training experience in the actual difference in the piping and tubing.

I know the rule book says"tubular"..but pipe technicly falls under the tubular category since it is round and not square or rectangular


Here is his answer emailed back at 12:55 EST......

It makes no difference as long as it meets our minimum requirements of 1 5/8 O.D. and .118 wall thickness for mild steel, .083 for cm.



Pat Cvengros



Pacific Division Technical Director



(626) 250-2295



Are you an NHRA member yet? JOIN NOW!





I meant no insults by saying people don't know anything of what they speak of..its just the nature of the internet to "assume" because someone said something in a forum.

I am just an Un-bias opinionated person through and through 100% and laugh so many times when i see internet warriors make other people beleive they are "masters" at what they TRY to talk about and mis-lead info to those who don't know,but yet i DO have personal hands on expereince in this arena since i have been ironworker since 1978 and have worked in structural,ornamental,piping and countless other fab shops as a fitter..welder..rigger...hangin iron on actual structural buildings where PIPE is commonly used to for "structural" purposes...etc and etc.

So i laugh so HARD when people on the internet claim "pipe is WEAK" when the true facts and "common sense" tells you the same exact type of material and prosesses are used but one is made for inside measurements and the other is outside measurements.

And a lil info for those saying HREW is NO GOOD..DOM starts out as HREW..then drawn over a mandrel to flatten the welded seam out for a more consistant strength area.

ALL of it starts as the same exact materials as a Plate..then rolled into a tubular shape and welded..but others continue more processes for a different usage in different purpoes..and PIPE is made the same exact way as Tube is made...common sense.......................
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Unread 02-08-2011, 11:21 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1222 View Post
Are you blind? Go back a few posts and reread or look what you wrote at the bottom of your last post.


Come on already.


Anyhow, I値l still build my cages with tubing and you go with pipe. To each his own.
This is turning into a shouting match and I知 kinda at a disadvantage as far as how I should respond. You go your way I値l go mine.
If i am blind..then everyone else must be too because there is NO explanation or proof to where you say pipe is weaker than tube and is brittle....you just beat around the bush..so to speak....
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Unread 02-08-2011, 11:35 AM   #22
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And by the way..as i've explained i grew up more or less on the drag strip because my father was engineer for the Chrysler Assembly plant in Newark, Delaware and he taught me things as a youngin about building performance engines,chassis and suspensions he should not have because it got me into alot of trouble driving machines on the street that i should not have been driving with 500+ ponies on street tires..lol

And i did see personaly MANY Pipe Tubular chassis's and roll bars NHRA approved at Englishtown and Cecil County...so instead of just "saying" it..i emailed the source..an NHRA Tech............

Bottom line is..pipe is more than acceptible for a roll cage in a jeep or 4x4's as long it is HREW or DOm or better..Chromoly...now if i was in a vehicle with a chance of rollover of 200+ MPH..it would definetly be Chromoly.

The welds and diagnal configuration is actualy what makes the difference in strength in cages and chassis's.

I was always "down" on the factory roll cages jeep has in the YJ's and TJ's because of how thin they actualy are until recently..i've seen a few with just a few added braces take some pretty serious roll overs and just bend a little..and less than a year ago a fellow pipefitter who works with us alot lost his son in a roll over in TJ because he had no seat belt on,but the factory cage held Impressivley well in a 50+ MPH roll over.

Sooo..thats just an example of how Un-bias i really am..because i always argued that the facvtory cages wouldn't hold up to anything and was there just for looks more or less..until i seen it with my own eyes....
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Unread 02-08-2011, 11:41 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 95_YJ-pos View Post
pipe is also not sized so there could and is thin spots and is not always round as tube is sized so the ID and OD are the same over the length....
What BS forum did you read that in?
..Pipe again is the same exact thing as Tube..just different sized....Pipe in high pressure and high heat applications have to go through a stringent traced manufacturing process from the day it was made until it arrives at the site in several applications and Quaility Control standards..if it was uneven through the pipe..it would be impossible to get an even weld through an Xrayed weldment...

To the OP..sorry for gettin WAY off subject in you're thread but i just get tired of reading false info on this subject and many other subjects..my opologies
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Unread 02-08-2011, 11:41 AM   #24
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Common sense would tell you typical steel pipe can't be brittle or shatter on impact. It's used to carry steam, high pressure natural gas, and other fuels. Imagine a 2" suspended high pressure gas pipe shattering in a warehouse because someone banged it with a forklift? Which happens often. The space would fill with gas in minutes.
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Unread 02-08-2011, 01:28 PM   #25
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the only pipe I have experience with is black iron pipe, used for propane water etc....in my use it is not round, like DOM tubing is, I know this from making parts in the lathe, and when they say DOM tube is 2" (tube is measured od pipe id like i think you pointed out) , the DOM is much more accurate when measured with dial calipers than the black iron pipe Ive worked with, when they say pipe is 2" (id) it is more than 2". I live in a small town so Ive never run accross the DOM pipe you mention. The benders would require different dies for this no? (dont know, never used a bender)
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Unread 02-08-2011, 02:10 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkers View Post
the only pipe I have experience with is black iron pipe, used for propane water etc....in my use it is not round, like DOM tubing is, I know this from making parts in the lathe, and when they say DOM tube is 2" (tube is measured od pipe id like i think you pointed out) , the DOM is much more accurate when measured with dial calipers than the black iron pipe Ive worked with, when they say pipe is 2" (id) it is more than 2". I live in a small town so Ive never run accross the DOM pipe you mention. The benders would require different dies for this no? (dont know, never used a bender)
Yes, they make different dies for pipe and tube.
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Unread 02-08-2011, 06:17 PM   #27
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Ironworker is right and all those who who are arguing against him are wrong. The part about pipe being brittle and possibly shattering was particularly amusing. Do your research. Good examples and proof he provided.

Now back to the actual topic , hopefully.
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Unread 02-08-2011, 07:25 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkers View Post
the only pipe I have experience with is black iron pipe, used for propane water etc....in my use it is not round, like DOM tubing is, I know this from making parts in the lathe, and when they say DOM tube is 2" (tube is measured od pipe id like i think you pointed out) , the DOM is much more accurate when measured with dial calipers than the black iron pipe Ive worked with, when they say pipe is 2" (id) it is more than 2". I live in a small town so Ive never run accross the DOM pipe you mention. The benders would require different dies for this no? (dont know, never used a bender)
I think this is where most people get the Mis-conception..you are comparing DOM tubing to what i assume is schedule 40 HREW..(I really don't THINK you are trying to machine cast iron pipe,which is actualy what black iron pipe is)

If you was to compare DOM mild steel Pipe with DOM mild steel tube...or HREW mild steel Tube with HREW mild steel Pipe..there would be no difference in the quality.

The BIG Mis-Conception is some people who just don't know automaticly THINK since the word "pipe" is being used it is a cast iron pipe and not mild steel or a higher quality...you can't even attempt to bend cast iron..it'll snap like a toothpick.

monkers...i was NOT insulting you,just clarifying why you seen a difference between DOM and HREW..for that matter it applies to both tube and pipe
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Unread 02-08-2011, 08:19 PM   #29
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didnt take it as an insult....i dont work with it enough and never heard of dom pipe......we have black iron or galvinized lol.....its not cast iron , its steel, but its not even close to round or the size it is called....we dont use it for anything critical anyway lol
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Unread 02-08-2011, 10:52 PM   #30
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Here is pipe bent to a 90 degree bend using a Hossfeld Bender and a 180 degree pipe die.
It reminds me we need to get our hydro rig back working on our shop's Hossfeld, it's been in a box for about 20 years. Now that I see how it should work.
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