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Unread 01-26-2011, 08:59 PM   #61
EZAces
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pikes_Peak_Trailers View Post
I cannot thank you enough for those pics. If you did them just for me, I def owe you a six pack.

Ok....here's one more and I think it may be most important question:

When do you know when you need to double pass? Do you only go by the guidelines in the welder manual or are there other clues/facets that provide the answer?

I multi pass any joint that is critical and thicker than 1/8th....like here the tongue/keel of my trailers join the chassis. But I do this out of being paranoid more than anything else. My single passes have very good penetration but I multi anyway.

So, when do you know when to multi?
You want your weld to be atleast the thickness of your material

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Unread 01-26-2011, 09:42 PM   #62
Krochus
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You want your weld to be atleast the thickness of your material
I disagree with this as a simple rule of thumb. IME there's way too many variables in play to make such a blanket statement. I make welds all the time on engineered members that aren't a fraction of the thickness of the members being joined

A couple of reasons not to make a huge weld would be...

You can greatly weaken your base metals if you apply too much weld and therefore heat.

Excessive joint distortion

Depending on the weld direction you can create stress risers that will induce a possible failure point.
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Unread 01-26-2011, 10:49 PM   #63
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I weld some. TIG mostly,these days. Stainless, black, aiuminum, titanium, it seems thats all the customer wants anymore.
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Unread 01-27-2011, 12:04 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pikes_Peak_Trailers View Post
I cannot thank you enough for those pics. If you did them just for me, I def owe you a six pack.

Ok....here's one more and I think it may be most important question:

When do you know when you need to double pass? Do you only go by the guidelines in the welder manual or are there other clues/facets that provide the answer?

I multi pass any joint that is critical and thicker than 1/8th....like here the tongue/keel of my trailers join the chassis. But I do this out of being paranoid more than anything else. My single passes have very good penetration but I multi anyway.

So, when do you know when to multi?
It pretty much becomes a gut feeling thing. Personally, if I built a trailer, I doubt that there'd be any joint where I'd run more than a single bead. That's because after welding all these years, I know that my single mig bead isn't going to fail.

Welding is a TRADE, and like all other trades, it takes a long time to master. Some people can learn to "run a bead" fairly quickly, but to master welding, it takes a long time. With experience, you'll figure out when to perform multiple pass welds.

Rich
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Unread 01-27-2011, 01:05 AM   #65
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It pretty much becomes a gut feeling thing. Personally, if I built a trailer, I doubt that there'd be any joint where I'd run more than a single bead. That's because after welding all these years, I know that my single mig bead isn't going to fail.

Welding is a TRADE, and like all other trades, it takes a long time to master. Some people can learn to "run a bead" fairly quickly, but to master welding, it takes a long time. With experience, you'll figure out when to perform multiple pass welds.

Rich
Thanks Rich. Knock on wood but I have never had any weld fail. I have bent trailer axles, bent couplers, etc. but the welds have held up on my test trailers and on my client's. Considering the the possible side effects of me not making a proper weld, I take it very seriously. I have done as many tests as I am able to perform (short of Xray, etc.) to test the penetration, strength etc.

I understand the "gut feeling" aspect but I am looking for any sort of quantifiable instruction for when to run mult passes. Most of my metal is 1/8 and I use single pass 98% of the time. When I weld the 3/16th keel to the 3/16th front joist, I use multi pass, with attention not to overheat.

D.
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Unread 01-27-2011, 01:08 AM   #66
Pikes_Peak_Trailers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krochus View Post
I disagree with this as a simple rule of thumb. IME there's way too many variables in play to make such a blanket statement. I make welds all the time on engineered members that aren't a fraction of the thickness of the members being joined

A couple of reasons not to make a huge weld would be...

You can greatly weaken your base metals if you apply too much weld and therefore heat.

Excessive joint distortion

Depending on the weld direction you can create stress risers that will induce a possible failure point.
Thanks for the comments.

So, when do you know when to multi pass?

Other than what my machine(s) booklets say, there does not seem to be a consensus. I am not trying to start any sort of argument; rather learn from folks who have been doing this longer than I have and are more skilled at it.

Dave.
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Unread 01-27-2011, 01:31 AM   #67
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Quote:
So, when do you know when to multi pass?
When you need to make a weld bigger than you can make in one pass as outlined in your weld procedures as per the weld size specification set forth in the prints by the engineer.

See what you're asking is more of a materials strength and engineering question. At the end of the day we're just welders it's not our place to make important engineering decisions at the business end of a stinger. Now obviously after being in the fab business for awhile you tend to learn and remember what size weld it takes for what (only so much is ever new) just from repetition. But without someone somewhere having done the stress and load calculations you wouldn't have anything but a big pile of guesswork.
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Unread 01-27-2011, 01:39 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by mg2000xj View Post
What is this? Art?
Looks like injection mold repairs. Welding up areas that are either worn, damaged or need to be changed due to a design change, tolerance change or machining error in the mold. The area that is welded is then re-machined to the correct or new specifications.

Am I correct there Joe?

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Unread 01-27-2011, 09:03 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krochus View Post
When you need to make a weld bigger than you can make in one pass as outlined in your weld procedures as per the weld size specification set forth in the prints by the engineer.

See what you're asking is more of a materials strength and engineering question. At the end of the day we're just welders it's not our place to make important engineering decisions at the business end of a stinger. Now obviously after being in the fab business for awhile you tend to learn and remember what size weld it takes for what (only so much is ever new) just from repetition. But without someone somewhere having done the stress and load calculations you wouldn't have anything but a big pile of guesswork.
I couldn't have said it better!

Rich
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Unread 01-27-2011, 10:47 AM   #70
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ive only welded once with sleaves and i caught on fire so i go T-shirts
ive caught on fire three time while welding sleave listed bofre ember went in boot and lit sock, and i was doing overhead welding and didn't notice i was on fire till my friend through watter on me
welding jackets work real good and depending on what you get they are cheap
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Unread 01-27-2011, 11:06 AM   #71
Pikes_Peak_Trailers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krochus View Post
When you need to make a weld bigger than you can make in one pass as outlined in your weld procedures as per the weld size specification set forth in the prints by the engineer.

See what you're asking is more of a materials strength and engineering question. At the end of the day we're just welders it's not our place to make important engineering decisions at the business end of a stinger. Now obviously after being in the fab business for awhile you tend to learn and remember what size weld it takes for what (only so much is ever new) just from repetition. But without someone somewhere having done the stress and load calculations you wouldn't have anything but a big pile of guesswork.
I wonder what percentage of fabricators on this board and the other Jeep/buggy sites have a certified PE design/evaluate each weld?

For now, I will follow what I have been doing: 1) Follow the instruction manuals that come with me machine re: multi-passing based upon thickness and other factors 2) refer to the various welding school books that I have 3) continue to do random destructive tests and 4) spend 3-4hrs / day melting metal.

Dave.

P.S. To the TS - sorry for taking this off topic.
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Unread 01-27-2011, 11:21 AM   #72
Krochus
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Quote:
I wonder what percentage of fabricators on this board and the other Jeep/buggy sites have a certified ME design/evaluate each weld?
Very few, I know I don't.

But again after awhile you learn what needs what without the beifiet of plans sometimes by trial and error when something fails. I know several folks who had to keep rebuilding and changing a part of their buggy before they finally figured out how to make it last. But the consequences of your rock sliders breaking up isn't on the level of magnitude of importance as something that involves the public safety of possibly hundreds or thousands of people at a time.

Now If I were in your shoes I would have a trailer tongue assembly submitted for destructive testing. Because one day you might find yourself in a courtroom where your day might go a whole lot better if you can say (and back up with documentation) that this unit can and has been DESIGNED to withstand X load from Y direction before failing.

perhaps continuation of this would be best for another thread as we're starting to get a ways OT
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Unread 01-27-2011, 12:00 PM   #73
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Pretty new to welding - probably 30 minutes total welding time under my belt.

Edit: Material is 3/16". Welder is a Hobart Handler 140, .030 flux core.

Here's the best I can muster:
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Unread 01-27-2011, 12:24 PM   #74
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^ Thats a great bead for 30 minutes of welding experience.
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Unread 01-27-2011, 06:10 PM   #75
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Great idea for a thread, one of the best ive seen
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