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Unread 10-25-2012, 07:33 AM   #466
82JeepCJ7
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Anyone can weld on a bench. It takes a real welder that can lay on his back in the mud and weld the bottom of a pipe, contort themselves into positions that are not natural in a pipe rack, or hang off the side of a structure and run a perfect bead every time.

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Unread 10-25-2012, 10:53 AM   #467
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Anyone can weld on a bench. It takes a real welder that can lay on his back in the mud and weld the bottom of a pipe, contort themselves into positions that are not natural in a pipe rack, or hang off the side of a structure and run a perfect bead every time.
If you're a good mirror welder, you can avoid some of the challenging physical positions.

Rich
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Unread 10-25-2012, 01:15 PM   #468
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Oh yea.. Done a few of those. The one that sticks in my mind was a natural gas line in the basement of the boiler house on the Navy base-Whidbey island. Basically had to crawl back a tunnel, over a pipe, and weld on a cap. 100% X-ray. Passed 1st time. I was sweating that one.
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Unread 10-25-2012, 03:00 PM   #469
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Originally Posted by Ironworker709 View Post
I'd love to be there and myself and that other "old man" run consistant passes compared to the whip and then do a cut and Xray and/or acid etch test and see which one penetrated deeper...and i'm bettin he runs those straight consistant passes without undercut too............

That other "old man" apparently has alot more time behind the hood and knowledge since he's the only one who chooses to run it the correct way...

I know..myself and several other "old men" deal with bull headed youngins all the time..."that old guy don't know what he's talkin about!..do it my way..it's easier!".......they tend to forget we've been through all that mess over and over and learned the hard way too.......while those young future "master weldors" were playing with their matchboxes and crawling up curtains...

No gripes here..facts are facts..and internet theories are....theories.......

And by the way..you can Spray Transfer in all positions now with a pulse machine...its now a required A.W.S. test for welding in all these new nuclear plants being built..its called Pulse Spray with Duplex wire......pretty cool process to run once you learn the animal.....i have one of those international AWS cards in my back pocket right now as of June of this year...
Actually he was the worst welder in the shop, , but that doesn't prove my point either. But funny you should say that.

Haha, yes with a pulse machine, but try conventional spray overheard and have fun with your shower.

I think I should mention that I'm not actually saying that you're wrong, but more that you're exaggerating how much less penetration you're getting with whipping. If it were that bad, I can tell you we'd have a lot more excavator attachments coming back with cracked welds.

Cheers.
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Unread 10-25-2012, 04:19 PM   #470
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Lookin good!
Wasn't expecting that haha.
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Unread 10-25-2012, 04:22 PM   #471
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 82JeepCJ7
Anyone can weld on a bench. It takes a real welder that can lay on his back in the mud and weld the bottom of a pipe, contort themselves into positions that are not natural in a pipe rack, or hang off the side of a structure and run a perfect bead every time.
You sound like a rig welder.
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Unread 10-25-2012, 04:27 PM   #472
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Originally Posted by andrewmacc View Post
Actually he was the worst welder in the shop, , but that doesn't prove my point either. But funny you should say that.

Haha, yes with a pulse machine, but try conventional spray overheard and have fun with your shower.

I think I should mention that I'm not actually saying that you're wrong, but more that you're exaggerating how much less penetration you're getting with whipping. If it were that bad, I can tell you we'd have a lot more excavator attachments coming back with cracked welds.

Cheers.
Your answers keep getting more conflicting as it goes...

First it was you can not run Spray Transfer without whipping it and prevent undercut......then say an old man runs consistant straight passes in your shop..then all of a sudden he's the worst and no longer works there... what CAN say is..(again)..
if you can't run spray transfer straight and consistant without undercut..then you need more time behind the hood.........

It's no exageration at all..NONE...even the most min-ute deeper penetration and less stress in the weld can easily make or break a weld in any situation...especialy on frame and suspension components on a vehicle that is daily driven in the public...you apparently don't realise the stress and beating those components take even on a daily driver soccer mom's car endures.

You have the right to "think" all you want and do things "youre way"..that's fine,but don't be giving the 1/2 way advice to these people here learning... the "1/2 way" advice...we prevent that here in JF..........

It's fine if you want to say"i do it this way and i "get by" doing it that way because my company allows it...but to say doing it the correct way is over exaggerating is the wrong advice........
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Unread 10-25-2012, 04:36 PM   #473
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Originally Posted by 82JeepCJ7 View Post
Anyone can weld on a bench. It takes a real welder that can lay on his back in the mud and weld the bottom of a pipe, contort themselves into positions that are not natural in a pipe rack, or hang off the side of a structure and run a perfect bead every time.
There isn't enough time in the day for me to begin telling the bad positions i've been in the past 30+ years in boilers,condensors..bellow work..coal burner and nuke plant work..concrete plant shutdown work,chemical plants,paper plants...etc etc...all i can say is..you get pretty proficeint in bad positions after a while..lol

I think the nastiest was in a few incinerator plants...and the nasteist smell i ever endured was inside welding and patching/repairing an animal incinerator exaust tube at the Brandywine DuPont facility in Delaware where they incinerated dead aminals after they was finished their experiments on them....i never puked so much in one day in my life.....
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Gotta LOVE a person who knows everything about NOTHING

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"How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young,compassionate with the aged,sympathetic with the striving,and tolerant with the weak and strong--because someday YOU will have been all of these"....George Washington Carver

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Unread 10-25-2012, 06:04 PM   #474
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I used to work for the local county solid waste division. Yea... I've welded in some pretty smelly locations....

I used to work as a pipe fitter and welder. I did a lot of turn arounds at the refinerys. 45 days of 7-12 shifts. Made a lot of money but didn't have time to spend it.
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Unread 10-26-2012, 12:19 AM   #475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironworker709 View Post
Your answers keep getting more conflicting as it goes...

First it was you can not run Spray Transfer without whipping it and prevent undercut......then say an old man runs consistant straight passes in your shop..then all of a sudden he's the worst and no longer works there... what CAN say is..(again)..
if you can't run spray transfer straight and consistant without undercut..then you need more time behind the hood.........

It's no exageration at all..NONE...even the most min-ute deeper penetration and less stress in the weld can easily make or break a weld in any situation...especialy on frame and suspension components on a vehicle that is daily driven in the public...you apparently don't realise the stress and beating those components take even on a daily driver soccer mom's car endures.

You have the right to "think" all you want and do things "youre way"..that's fine,but don't be giving the 1/2 way advice to these people here learning... the "1/2 way" advice...we prevent that here in JF..........

It's fine if you want to say"i do it this way and i "get by" doing it that way because my company allows it...but to say doing it the correct way is over exaggerating is the wrong advice........


Nothing conflicting about my answers, you're just looking too hard and putting words in my mouth.

Perhaps my choice of wording was extreme, fine. I'll concede that on poor word choice. Obviously you can run spray without whipping. I shouldn't have said that you're invariably going to have undercut, but with how we've set up, a small whip is the chosen technique in our shop, and has never once been an issue. Ever. We had one bucket come back that was cracked all over, but that was a ridiculously extreme case - even the cutting edge itself cracked. It was used to dig straight into a mountainside because for whatever reason explosives were not allowed that week. Don't know why.

And what you should have paid attention to is that I wasn't using the example of the old man as a point in my favour, and I said so. It just so happened that he ran stringers and was still the worst welder there, which is why I thought it was funny you said that. Nothing weird about that. (And yes, he no longer works there. He was laid off. Also nothing weird about that.. not sure why you're picking up on that as something weird..)

Anyhow, I don't see this discussion going anywhere but back and forth. If you'd like you can PM me.

Also, for a more official note, I'm attempting to locate where whipping doesn't conform to applicable code. If I'm wrong, I'll tell you that I'm wrong, and with a cherry on top and no hard feelings.
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Unread 10-26-2012, 07:32 AM   #476
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 82JeepCJ7 View Post
I used to work for the local county solid waste division. Yea... I've welded in some pretty smelly locations....

I used to work as a pipe fitter and welder. I did a lot of turn arounds at the refinerys. 45 days of 7-12 shifts. Made a lot of money but didn't have time to spend it.
I'm still on one of those "runs" at the moment,started working 7-13's with GE-APM at a local nuke plant in Georgia beggining of september,transfered right into another nuke with them here in north Alabama,still working 7-13's+ every night..only a few days off in between these 2 and still have a few weeks left here and they are already askin me to go to another after this one until december....gotta love the money,but like you said..no time to spend it....
Even being a Boss everywhere you still work on your tools with GE,even the Engineers and superintendants do so its really not much easier,just the money and per deim and bonuses are much better...lol..

I still have to weld test and qualify as advanced or higher rigger at all these plant sites,but in all honesty..i don;t know if i'd feel right watchin all my guys have fun and me just standin there watching them...lol
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Don't DREAM your life, LIVE your dreams

Never forget 9/11

"Welding is like a woman,Get 'er HOT and Penetrate"

Gotta LOVE a person who knows everything about NOTHING

The only Thing necessary for the Evil to win is a good man to do nothing....

"How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young,compassionate with the aged,sympathetic with the striving,and tolerant with the weak and strong--because someday YOU will have been all of these"....George Washington Carver

Want to know what an Ironworker is and the job scope of a Journeyman?..click here...http://www.ironworkers.org/becoming/careers.aspx
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Unread 10-26-2012, 10:26 AM   #477
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Im with ya there. Where I am now I am the shop foreman. I keep getting yelled at by the GM because I am in there cutting, welding, fitting, etc.
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Unread 10-30-2012, 04:55 PM   #478
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Im still relatively new. I've had my Hobart Handler 210 for a little less than a year now and havnt welded too much with it yet up until recently. I had a Hobart Handler 140 for about a month before the 210 but sold it because I wanted to be able to weld thicker than 1/4"

One of my first successful welds with my Hobart 140 with 1/4" steel. This thing passed the hammer test with flying colors



One of my first welds with my Hobart 210 with 1/4" steel. One heating setting above ^^^^



One of my first decent looking vertical uphill welds. I have the wirespeed turned down a good amount. I realize I need to pause slightly on the sides more.


Another vertical uphill practice weld. Don't mind the weld on the left, I was experimenting with different wire speeds and they were too high and the weld globbed up. The one on the right was with a wire speed i was comfortable with. I am still working on my uphill technique, and realize I have some undercut on the sides but oh well.

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Unread 10-31-2012, 12:01 AM   #479
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Im still relatively new. I've had my Hobart Handler 210 for a little less than a year now and havnt welded too much with it yet up until recently. I had a Hobart Handler 140 for about a month before the 210 but sold it because I wanted to be able to weld thicker than 1/4"

One of my first successful welds with my Hobart 140 with 1/4" steel. This thing passed the hammer test with flying colors



One of my first welds with my Hobart 210 with 1/4" steel. One heating setting above ^^^^



One of my first decent looking vertical uphill welds. I have the wirespeed turned down a good amount. I realize I need to pause slightly on the sides more.


Another vertical uphill practice weld. Don't mind the weld on the left, I was experimenting with different wire speeds and they were too high and the weld globbed up. The one on the right was with a wire speed i was comfortable with. I am still working on my uphill technique, and realize I have some undercut on the sides but oh well.

You're doing a pretty good job! It's good that you're practicing uphill vertical welding. Many guys weld their vertical downhill...BAD IDEA!

You want to make sure that your metal is ground shiny clean, no rust, mill scale, etc.

For vertical-up short arc welding, I turn my heat down, considerably. So, if I was welding 1/4" steel in the vertical-up position, I might set the machine at the setting that I might weld 1/8" thick steel with, in the flat position. This is just a basic guideline.

Vertical welds, done uphill properly, are among the strongest welds out there. So, although the machine settings are lower for vertical than for other positions, there will be adequate penetration. Vertical-up welding is typically a little slower process than flat welding, and deposits a fairly meaty bead.

It also takes quite a bit of practice to master. Try widening your beads a little more than what you've been doing. Like you said, you have to hold the sides a bit longer. I weave across the middle fairly rapidly, but not so fast that you "leave the puddle". If you weave across the middle too slowly, the crown of the bead will be high. The middle of the bead sort of gets "double metal", because of the weaving.

So....establish the weld, weave to one side...hold it for about 2 seconds. weave across and upwards on a slight diagonal, at a fairly fast pace, to the opposite side...hold it for about 2 seconds. Continue on like this for the length of the run of the bead.

These are just basic guidelines. The machine settings, amount of "side hold", and the speed of weaving "across the middle", as well as how much diagonal spacing between the weaves, are what will determine the appearance of the bead. I forgot to mention that the angle of the mig gun. It has to be angled upward, about 15 - 20 degrees from being "horizontally level".

There's no substitute for practice! It's a very rewarding feling when you finally master "vertical-up"!

Rich
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Unread 10-31-2012, 07:34 AM   #480
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Good advise Rix. When I do a vertical, I never pause in the middle, just the sides. The amount of time I pause is dictated by how metal is deposited.

All passes done with 1/16" E71T1 and 75/25 gas.


Triple pass vertical.
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