How to: Make a Trail Mig (Flux Core) welder - Page 2 - JeepForum.com
Search  
Sign Up   Today's Posts
User: Pass: Remember?
Advertise Here
Jeep Home Jeep Forum Jeep Classifieds Jeep Registry JeepSpace Jeep Reviews Jeep Gallery Jeep Clubs Jeep Groups Jeep Videos Jeep Events Jeep Articles
Go Back JeepForum.com > General Technical Discussions > Fabrication Shop > How to: Make a Trail Mig (Flux Core) welder

Premium LED Lighting by VISION X, Proudly sold at ROCKRIDGBds fox ipf 2.0 racing series shocks now available at rockEngo winches available at www.rockridge4wd.com! Free shipp

Reply
Unread 09-06-2010, 10:49 AM   #16
Jerry Bransford
Do it right or not at all
 
Jerry Bransford's Avatar
2004 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Escondido, California, California
Posts: 60,039
That'd be great and much appreciated, thanks!

__________________
Getting Savvy...

Coolest offroad magazine ever! CRAWL Magazine

When you have a choice, buy American.

Jerry Bransford is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-09-2010, 10:49 AM   #17
sherlocktk
Registered User
1984 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Lake Forest, CA
Posts: 318
OK a few extra pictures.

As promised, the diagram on how to make it a "cold tip" welder. Here I utilize a 24v starter relay. It should have enough current capacity. I have not tested this configuration, but I am confident it will work. The most important factor is to get a starter relay that is sized appropriately to handle the current.

I learned to weld with the hot tip, so even on my cold tip welder I really do not miss that feature. My mind is now hard wired on how to use the hot tip.

Also another picture of the welds, this time wirebrushed so you can see a little better. Did not need the welder on the 33 mile Dusy trail this weekend. I was hoping to need to help Someone else out, but I was totally happy not breaking anything.
batterywelder-wiring-diagram-hot-triggger.jpg   weld-test2.jpg  
sherlocktk is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-09-2010, 11:25 AM   #18
muddy93
Registered User
1987 FSJ Wagoneer 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Templeton, Indiana
Posts: 1,905
I’ve got one of these in the garage, 125 Amp Single Phase Wire Feed Flux Welder - Homier
After reading this thread, I’m seriously considering building one of these “tool box trail welders”.
However, this is currently the only welder that I have at home (I have access to a larger 220v machine, but it’s not very convenient). I really don’t want to give up my only welder, just to have a trail welder.
Here are a couple idea’s/questions that I had, let me know what you think.

What about putting some type of quick connect on the side of the “tool box” for connecting the jumper cables to.
And then, keeping the transformer, and setting it up with some cables that could also attach to the quick connect on the “tool box”. In theory, you could use the welder at home, with it plugged into the transformer. And then, when you head for the trail, just unhook the “tool box” from the transformer, and grab the jumper cables, and be ready for trail welding.

What do you think, would it work?
__________________
maroon 1987 Grand Wagoneer. stock for now...
muddy93 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-10-2010, 11:03 AM   #19
sherlocktk
Registered User
1984 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Lake Forest, CA
Posts: 318
Muddy93:

In regards to the welder listed, based on the price I would suspect the internals are mostly identical to the HF unit, with this unit probably having a larger transformer. But the drive mechanism and motor speed control are basically the same.

If you were to make the welder be "both" you would need a way to disconnect the AC stuff and connect the DC stuff. Inside the welder there are basically 2 seperate circuits that share the same power source.

Circuit one is the one that actually does the welding, basically shorting out the battery.
In your ac welder this is accomplished via transformer. it takes 120v at 20amps and converts to probably 20-30v at 110 amps AC 60hz. a True flux core welder is actually DC, but thoes addtional electronics cost more $$ so we dont get that with the cheapo welder.

Because the transformer is basically a long shorted out wire, hooking up 24v dC directly is probably a bad idea, I expect it would heat up the transformer to a point of making it useless. If it were me I would have a hard disconnect between the two to "switch" from AC operation to DC operation.

Circuit two is the one which makes the motor advance at the proper speed based upon trigger pull.

The motor in this unit is what is called a "universal" meaning it will run on either AC or DC. The speed control in the HF unit I believe is similar to a light dimmer, meaning it only applies AC for a percentage of the full cycle (10-100% of available power) Its power source is the transformer at the 20-30v ac current, and the motor runs on AC. The PWM controller I used is for controlling Motor speed in DC operating range. Agian this woudl require a hard swtich (but much cheaper as it is lower current) or you could get really fancy and hook up a rectifier and small capacator and always use the PWM controller for ac and DC. This is the route I woudl go as you could hard mount the motor speed control in the box easily. It would only require $5 in parts (radio shack has rectifiers and capacitors)
sherlocktk is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-10-2010, 06:14 PM   #20
sherlocktk
Registered User
1984 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Lake Forest, CA
Posts: 318
Muddy93

I just thought about what you were trying to get at with basically having the tool box be the welder and then have a DIFFERENT box that held the transformer. and when you wanted to weld you hook up to the transformer at home and the batteries when out on the trail.

With the addition of a rectifier you can eliminate the stock wire speed controller and use the PWM controller exclusively. (see attached diagram)

The only thing I am not sure about is how large of a capacitor. I am not enough of a EE to help with that. I would just put in a big one and see if it works. (like 1000mf) Many rectifiers are rated for 10 amps or so so this is not an issue. The capicator is there for filtering of the incoming power to generate a more smooth DC current. The rectifier can take either an AC or DC input. The welder will output a AC arc when on AC power and a DC arc when on DC power

When you are at home, hook jumper cables to transformer leads The polarity does not matter. When on the trail hook to the 2 batteries (Polarity matters). It all works the same.
batterywelder-wiring-diagram-ac-dc.jpg  
sherlocktk is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-11-2010, 11:31 AM   #21
muddy93
Registered User
1987 FSJ Wagoneer 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Templeton, Indiana
Posts: 1,905
Sherlocktk,
thanks for the diagram. I might just have to try this.
__________________
maroon 1987 Grand Wagoneer. stock for now...
muddy93 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-11-2010, 11:47 AM   #22
Unlimited04
This post/info=my opinion
 
Unlimited04's Avatar
2004 LJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 23,220
this is a great idea. I've seen a similar thing before - they do make actual "briefcase" wire-feed welders designed to attach to big generator/welders.

here's one:


my buddy has an older model Lincoln kinda like this:

he bought it for a bridge building project...hooks up to a 300A AC/DC gas welder and runs 25lb spools of flux-core, or can be plumbed to Argon/CO2 for MIG operation. i think its even got a switch on the front panel to reverse polarity.

but those are high-dollar items...your solution is much cheaper
Unlimited04 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-24-2010, 05:16 AM   #23
Sportinwood
Registered User
1985 CJ7 
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Utah
Posts: 123
Sherlock
I'm a little confused about one thing in your diagram. Why are you running your ground lead as a positive and your stinger negative? Wont that create a short circuit and arc as soon as you connect the ground clamp to your rig? I could see that being ok for welding on metal not touching your rig but what do you do if you need to repair your own vehicle?
Sportinwood is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-24-2010, 08:01 AM   #24
Kettles
Registered User
2001 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Louisville, Kentucky
Posts: 4,178
The reason the ground is positive, is because flux core uses DCEN (DC electrode negative), where mig uses DCEP.
I think it would depend on if your using the engine battery for welding or not for shorting out, but that is a decent question. Im not an electrical engineer so I wont really attempt to answer it.
__________________
_=====o000o
//__l_l_,\____\,____
l_--\_l__l_/--|lllll|
_.(o)_)__.(o)_)--o-)_)
"Dee", a Patriot Blue 2001 Cherokee Sport 4.0L High-Output Pictures Build Thread
The Rocket Sheep
"Live Free Or Die; Death Is Not The Worst of Evils." -General John Stark
Quote:
Originally Posted by speedbucket View Post
perfect depends on how far away you are when you look at it:D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Millermagic View Post
It's a 4.0 ... as long as there's something in the crank case that isn't coolant I'm sure it will still run forever.
Kettles is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-24-2010, 08:30 AM   #25
Ironworker709
Moderator
 
Ironworker709's Avatar
1995 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Millen Area,Georgia
Posts: 3,281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unlimited04 View Post
this is a great idea. I've seen a similar thing before - they do make actual "briefcase" wire-feed welders designed to attach to big generator/welders.

here's one:


my buddy has an older model Lincoln kinda like this:

he bought it for a bridge building project...hooks up to a 300A AC/DC gas welder and runs 25lb spools of flux-core, or can be plumbed to Argon/CO2 for MIG operation. i think its even got a switch on the front panel to reverse polarity.

but those are high-dollar items...your solution is much cheaper
Have you actualy picked that suitcase welder up and walked around with it???..lol..those boogers are HEAVY,with the 25 lb of wire inside it..plus it needs a source of power to use it,,from another welder..gas or diesel,,kind of defeats the purpose of a portable trail repair setup i would think..lol
We use those suitcase machines(lincolns and millers) on jobs,if up on the iron,we always have the crane send it up to the floor we need and drag it around on the iron with a safety lanyard on it incase it falls off on someone's head below..lol
In this case,,i'd just use the stick welder for the repairs you are using to supply the power to it.
I have a Lincon Ranger 225 on a trailer i use for trail repairs,leave it at the campsite or house nearby where we are trail riding,if something happens,someone goes and gets the machine and brings it,plus can use my Lincoln 180 plugged into the Ranger,it has 110v and 220v plugs as a generator too.

But this thread is about the MINUMUM size someone can use for portability of trail repairs.
__________________
Don't DREAM your life, LIVE your dreams

Never forget 9/11

"Welding is like a woman,Get 'er HOT and Penetrate"

Gotta LOVE a person who knows everything about NOTHING

The only Thing necessary for the Evil to win is a good man to do nothing....

"How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young,compassionate with the aged,sympathetic with the striving,and tolerant with the weak and strong--because someday YOU will have been all of these"....George Washington Carver

Want to know what an Ironworker is and the job scope of a Journeyman?..click here...http://www.ironworkers.org/becoming/careers.aspx
Ironworker709 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-24-2010, 08:57 AM   #26
Unlimited04
This post/info=my opinion
 
Unlimited04's Avatar
2004 LJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 23,220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironworker709 View Post
Have you actualy picked that suitcase welder up and walked around with it???..lol..those boogers are HEAVY
...
But this thread is about the MINUMUM size someone can use for portability of trail repairs.
Yes, they are heavy, and yes i've carried one around before, it sucks.

I haven't seen one of those little wire spool briefcase things yet tho. those look pretty cool, and possibly easy to adapt for trail use...finding one cheap on craiglist would be ideal...otherwise they're kinda pricey compared to the OP's idea.

A Ranger 225 on a trailer isn't exactly a trail friendly repair tool either...thats way more complicated/cumbersome than anything else
Unlimited04 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-24-2010, 09:56 AM   #27
sherlocktk
Registered User
1984 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Lake Forest, CA
Posts: 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportinwood View Post
Sherlock
I'm a little confused about one thing in your diagram. Why are you running your ground lead as a positive and your stinger negative? Wont that create a short circuit and arc as soon as you connect the ground clamp to your rig? I could see that being ok for welding on metal not touching your rig but what do you do if you need to repair your own vehicle?
Correct "Ground" for Flux core welding is Positive, and Negative is the stinger.

I tried switching the polarity to see what happens, it just spits metal balls everywhere, nothing close to resembling a weld.

When welding on your rig, you need to disconenct the vehicle's entire electrical system. (a good practice even when at home) I take the battery out of the vehicle and set it on the ground and borrow an additional battery from someone else in the group. Then I put a blanket over them incase something bad happens and they decide to explode. I think the explosion hazard is less than with stick welding as the current transfered by the wire is less, and the direct short possibilities are smaller. The batteries are 100% isolated from the vehicle's electrical system.

If I had 2 batteries in my vehicle, I would leave them in place, but still disconnect the cables, convert to 24v, and weld up.

Just to be clear the goal of this project was to have a cheap trail mig that was reasonably portable. Cheap being the most important factor. In the orange tool box i use. I have the jumper cables, welding goggles, 15ft extension cord, 4.5 grinder, gloves and goggles. The tool box fits nicely on the floor behind my passenger seat in "unused" territory.

As far as the briefcase welder, (Ready welder is the brand) is designed for trail use, exactly like this. The street price for the base model on that is $500 and goes up from there. I also did not like the spool gun as I felt it would be hard to get that moved around to some of the un-ideal conditions we sometimes need to weld in. The regular gun can get in tighter spaces.
sherlocktk is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-24-2010, 10:05 AM   #28
Ironworker709
Moderator
 
Ironworker709's Avatar
1995 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Millen Area,Georgia
Posts: 3,281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unlimited04 View Post
A Ranger 225 on a trailer isn't exactly a trail friendly repair tool either...thats way more complicated/cumbersome than anything else
lol..i never said it was a "portable deal"..i only stated what I USE because i have it,,i was comparing the need for the suitcase machine needing a welder to run it......and that would be either a gas or diesel engined stick machine,that would be more like toting a jobsite around on the trail...
__________________
Don't DREAM your life, LIVE your dreams

Never forget 9/11

"Welding is like a woman,Get 'er HOT and Penetrate"

Gotta LOVE a person who knows everything about NOTHING

The only Thing necessary for the Evil to win is a good man to do nothing....

"How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young,compassionate with the aged,sympathetic with the striving,and tolerant with the weak and strong--because someday YOU will have been all of these"....George Washington Carver

Want to know what an Ironworker is and the job scope of a Journeyman?..click here...http://www.ironworkers.org/becoming/careers.aspx
Ironworker709 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-24-2010, 10:17 AM   #29
Jerry Bransford
Do it right or not at all
 
Jerry Bransford's Avatar
2004 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Escondido, California, California
Posts: 60,039
Quote:
Originally Posted by sherlocktk View Post
Correct "Ground" for Flux core welding is Positive, and Negative is the stinger.

I tried switching the polarity to see what happens, it just spits metal balls everywhere, nothing close to resembling a weld.
I work with that polarity, of course, with my MIG welder when I use flux core wire. But I recently started trying to get a stick welder going for emergency trail repairs with two automotive batteries in series to give the stick 24v.

A welding book I have had an illustration showing a negative ground going to the work and the stick being positive. So that is how I connected my stick and ground. I had poor results that I blamed on the batteries.

Should I instead make the ground connection to the work + and the stinger connection -? This is with 6010 stick.
__________________
Getting Savvy...

Coolest offroad magazine ever! CRAWL Magazine

When you have a choice, buy American.

Jerry Bransford is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-24-2010, 11:01 AM   #30
Kettles
Registered User
2001 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Louisville, Kentucky
Posts: 4,178
You can stick weld with DCEN or DECP depending on the electrodes, and position, and desired weld characteristics.
6010 is used mainly with it the way you have it set though. If you are not a stick welder (have never stick welded) I would blame yourself for the problems, not the batteries. 6010 is hard to start out welding with without any stick experience; 7018 on the contrary runs very smooth and is easy to clean, and looks better, so I find most beginners like it alot better, 6013 isn't bad either. I can weld either just fine now though.
Jerry, I would recommend practice; striking the arc with stick is not even close to anything MIG related, so your starting from scratch. Not to mention you have to compensate for the rod burning away, which takes practice.
__________________
_=====o000o
//__l_l_,\____\,____
l_--\_l__l_/--|lllll|
_.(o)_)__.(o)_)--o-)_)
"Dee", a Patriot Blue 2001 Cherokee Sport 4.0L High-Output Pictures Build Thread
The Rocket Sheep
"Live Free Or Die; Death Is Not The Worst of Evils." -General John Stark
Quote:
Originally Posted by speedbucket View Post
perfect depends on how far away you are when you look at it:D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Millermagic View Post
It's a 4.0 ... as long as there's something in the crank case that isn't coolant I'm sure it will still run forever.
Kettles is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Thread Tools


Suggested Threads





Jeep, Wrangler, Cherokee, Grand Cherokee, and other models are copyrighted and trademarked to Jeep/Chrysler Corporation. JeepForum.com is not in any way associated with Jeep or the Chrysler Corp.