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Unread 07-26-2010, 11:09 AM   #76
DannyRoark89
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Most have been told that "face welding" is a weaker design that is done to keep costs down... sacrificing strength for profit.
i was snooping on JCR's website and trying to see how they do it, and it looks like that only weld to the surface. would making in 4" wide with but a large radius on the front and welding it on the front and back be the best idea then? if thats the case i will probably continue to do what i do for a while anyway since for me right now its easier to cut 4 1/2" lengths of 3/4" flat bar and just drill a 1" hole in it then to have to try and replicate the radius numerous times. maybe just chamfer the edges on the flat bar? eliminating all the violent corners. pulled the layout for the front bumper portion of the jig today and cross checked my measurements on two other stock jeep and my jeep was with in a 1/16" between the 3 jeeps so i think ill split the difference and go to a 1/32" on the jig.

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Unread 07-26-2010, 12:02 PM   #77
DannyRoark89
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Also been doing alot of research on the CNC plasma tables, really leaning towards the torchmate set up.

Bersk another question for ya, if i were to get the 2'x2' table like you suggested is it easy and or less expensive to upgrade it to say a 4'x4' or a 4'x8? its looking to be around 2000$ for the 2x2 tables but that comes with everything. so in the event of upgrading to a bigger table what really is entailed in doing that? is it just longer arms? or is there some kind of splice you can get for it to upgrade it to a bigger table? or is it a situation were it would be just as cost effective to just buy the 4'x4' and not have to upgrade it for a long while, sorry for sounding like a noob on this but all the research i have done has just come up with different sized set ups nothing about making a smaller one bigger? common sense would tell me though that it would be entirely possible to just add longer arms or axis i guess is what they are called? and what would you suggest for a burn table? i helped my step dad build one for his shop at work on a weekend one time it looked similar to this but not exactly i dont have any pictures of the one we built and this was the closest i found we used 1/2"x1/2" flat stock and the tops were not pointed like the picture shows this is what mine will probably look like, unless someone has got any better ideas they are still using this one at his shop a few years after he retired so its obviously held up to the abuse

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Unread 07-26-2010, 10:27 PM   #78
rmartin
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I can't add much on the fab side since I am barely a novice at that. I can add some on the business side. If you don't do that right, the IRS and the WA Dept of Revenue could get your backside in a sling in a hurry.

If you are serious about going doing this as a business, you should look at the laws in WA, especially those regarding DBA businesses, S-Corps, and LLCs. An LLC will most likely be the most sensible one, especially when considering the liability issues, etc. (When my wife started her photography business a few years ago, I insisted she at least become an LLC for tax and liability reasons ... the most sensible business organization type in AZ). The cost is reasonable and comes off as a business expense on Schedule C at the end of the year. Once she got the LLC, it was a piece of cake to get the IRS EIN and then the state sales tax certificate. The TurboTax Home and Small Biz edition makes it very easy to fill out your Schedule C come tax season. It is even easier if you use Quickbooks to keep track of your income and expenses. Again, all the fees and software costs are expenses on your Schedule C and are netted against your revenue. Same the equipment you buy, although that will likely need to be on a depreciation schedule.

Trying to stay under the radar of the state and feds only works as long as you are under the radar. I would not personally bet my income on it.

Good luck. Your XJ bumpers look great.
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Unread 07-27-2010, 12:07 AM   #79
DannyRoark89
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Quote:
Trying to stay under the radar of the state and feds only works as long as you are under the radar. I would not personally bet my income on it.

Good luck. Your XJ bumpers look great.
thanks for the kind words and i have been looking at all the different options i Have and your right LLC seems to be the right path, i think i have made up my mind though that i will give it 2 months before i deal with any of it though that way i can get a feel of how it will turn out, if after 2 months things seem to be going good then i will commit to a buisness license and yada yada yada but if im not producing the revenue i feel i need to sustain the buisness ill shut her down for a while and re-vamp the game plan, i believe the vendor accounts on here are annual so ill have a year it out and see if right or not, plus im only 21 whats the worst that could happen? still finish college and get a real job again, would like not to because i love working for myself in the job but if need be i can
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Unread 07-27-2010, 04:48 AM   #80
BESRK
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The Torchmate 2x2 doesn't look like it's "expandable". In order to make it bigger, you'd have to lengthen the gantry and make longer rails.

With the larger 4x4 table, the gantry is already 4' long. The railing system (on the TM2) is extruded aluminum with a steel "rail" bolted to the top of it. In order to expand it, you just splice in another length of the aluminum and use longer steel rails.. it's pretty simple actually.

The TM 2x2 isn't designed for "production use".. cutting row after row of brackets. It's meant for prototyping and small runs of parts. However, I know a few guys using it for small production runs. If you can swing it financially, a 4x4 or 4x8 (or even a 5x10) table is the best "bang for buck" for a typical "shop" where you're looking to cut dozens (or even hundreds) of parts at a time. I thought my 4x4 table would be plenty but here it is a year later and I've already purchased the stuff to extend it. Loading and moving heavy sheets of steel is no fun. I want to toss the sheet on the table and pull a "skeleton" off.

While that spike table (looks like some sort of torture table) works, it's alot easier to make a table that uses replaceable "slats" of flat bar. My table uses rows of 3/16"x3 flat bar laying on edge 3" apart. I can get a month or two out of the slats before I flip them over and use the other side.
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Unread 07-29-2010, 12:25 AM   #81
DannyRoark89
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ok so i have firmly decided on the torchmate two set up, comes with everything but the steel i believe is the way i read it and the ability to expand it makes it worth the initial cost i believe IMO and i am leaning towards a thermal dynamics plasma cutter, its cuts 1" and can sever 1 3/4" probably a little over kill but can be useful when that one jobs call for 1" plate! here are some pictures of the JIG almost done, still need to add the pieces to hold the tubing and corner pieces for the rear bumpers, and i haven't decided how i will work the front bumper yet, since there are so many different types of front bumpers i build i think i may just be building them off the brackets for now. all the holes and everything are laid out as perfect as most anyone can get and the entire thing is square top to bottom, and flat as well. would like some opinions and thoughts of what the next step should be on the jig i have ideas in my head but i would like others to compare too.

On a sadder note my company called me back to work starting Monday, but no worries, i just think that the only down side will be only being able to build and sell 3 bumpers a week compared to the 5 or 6 i was originally thinking about, i am thinking one built Monday through Friday once i get off work and 1 on saturday and sunday. or possibly do it as a build it and then post it kind of a deal that way no one has to work around my schedual the up side to this little turn of events is that know that i will have a steady income again i can put money from bumpers straight back into the shop and mainly the CNC setup hopefully soon allowing me to produce the amount of money needed for me to tell my Job good bye!













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Unread 07-29-2010, 04:42 PM   #82
BESRK
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Nice!

You might want to contact Torchmate and ask them if there's a TM customer within driving distance to you that is willing to let you come "test drive" their plasma table. Maybe show you what it's capable of, quality of cut, some of the cool features, shortcuts they use...etc.

Too bad you weren't out here or I'd let you come down and play around on my table...

Speaking of which.. if anyone out here near Virginia ever wants to come play with my TM2 prior to pulling the trigger on one, just let me know and you're more than welcome to come down and take mine for a test drive.
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Unread 07-30-2010, 11:58 AM   #83
DannyRoark89
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that would be a good idea.... isn't the quality of the cut highly dependent on the kind of plasma machine i will be running and not so much the CNC set up? although seeing one first hand besides youtube would be extremely beneficial though i will be picking up a couple sticks on monday and getting started on some bumpers, since its looking like another week till im back at work, once those are sold my vendor account will be up and running, should take a little while to get them done because while building the first bumper i will finish the jig IE the pieces that old up the tube and the corner pieces.

here some pictures of what i have done the last day or so ignore the crappy paint it was used in place of primer, the doors will be colored the same color as the guys B2 here in a few days is what he said.







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Unread 07-30-2010, 02:44 PM   #84
BESRK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyRoark89 View Post
that would be a good idea.... isn't the quality of the cut highly dependent on the kind of plasma machine i will be running and not so much the CNC set up?

It is true that a lot of the cut quality is dictated by the plasma cutter... especially the nozzle/electrode. If they're damaged or worn, the cut will suffer.

However, there are many other factors that also make a difference.. Pierce height, cut height, cut speed (both straight line and radius), amperage, air quality/pressure, backlash (loose table), lead in, and a few other factors.

Keep in mind that plasma cutting leaves a "kerf" about 1/16" wide or so. You have to keep that in mind when drawing out parts with alot of smaller details in them.

One piece of equipment I really like is my Automatic Torch Height Controller. It will pierce nice and high and then drop down quickly to cut height before begining to travel. It also uses voltage sensing feedback to maintain a consistent cut height above the metal... even if the metal begins to warp from the height. Really important when cutting stuff thinner than 1/8" thick.

One thing I like about my Hypertherm is that, following the factory cut chart will usually provide close to optimum cut quality. However, the charts only cover the basic parameters. I keep separate notes on pretty much all the settings so I can duplicate them as needed... or make changes in the proper direction when something's not right.

Being able to trouble shoot a bad cut can be a bit frustrating in the beginning but the process needs to be learned in order to consistenly cut nice parts.
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Unread 08-07-2010, 12:24 PM   #85
DannyRoark89
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sorry guys its been an incredibly busy week, but i was able to make it down to a machine/fab shop were my buddies dad works and i got to see a Torchmate up close and personal it was a 5'x10' setup using a thermal dynamics ultra cut 300 i believe and well needless to say I MUST HAVE ONE!!! the ability to cut parts so easily is almost a must have i believe to be able to turn a profit it was really an incredible expierence to be around something to awesome i cannot wait till i get one now, still think ill start with 4'x4' table and grow from there, but is using cad pretty difficult? i took a class about it way back in the day in highschool and well i failed, haha i dont have alot of patience for computer stuff, but is there another program you can use? or is auto cad pretty much it? and how hard is it to really sit down and learn the program? in highschool i didnt try to learn it at all or even go to class most of the time resulting in a bad grade but it seemed difficult to use, just curious what anyone who uses a CNC machine has to say about that?
thanks guys, and the vendor account is coming soon i promise!
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Unread 08-07-2010, 06:55 PM   #86
BESRK
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If you get the TM 4x4 Small Shop Machine, it comes with their CAD program. Prior to buying mine, about the closest thing to CAD I had used was MS Paint and a little bit of eMachine Shop's free CAD (also easy to use BTW).
I learned to use the TM program by reading the manual and clicking buttons to see what they would do.

Their program is tailored toward 2D plasma cutting and I thought it was pretty easy to learn. Lots of features to help the beginner. It'll do lead ins (so you don't mess up the cut with a "pierce"), auto nesting (helping to minimize waste), and a host of other cool stuff. You can even import a drawing (like a JPEG or GIF) and convert it to a vector drawing so you can modify it for cutting.

Nothing like drawing something like a mounting tab, clicking on "Array", and making rows and rows of the same part... with precision.

Here's a link to a local forum I belong to.. kind of chronicles my plasma cutting adventure. Not sure what's up with all the pics though.. looks like they got all shuffled around somehow. I'll have to go back thru and fix them later. Note: has quite a bit of swearing in the thread...
My New Plasma Table Thread
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Unread 08-08-2010, 02:38 PM   #87
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Yes definitely do it, i really like your work and will def. be interested in one for my own.
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Unread 08-09-2010, 08:24 PM   #88
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You have some nice clean looking bumpers. Good luck with the biz
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Unread 10-05-2010, 11:14 PM   #89
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Hey Danny, Just finished reading this thread. I might be able to help you out. I work with CAD for a living. I've also had several years of mechanical engineering schooling. If you need somebody that can blueprint, produce dimensional drawings, create 3D CAD models, etc.... I'm your guy. PM me, lets talk.
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Unread 10-17-2013, 06:08 AM   #90
DannyRoark89
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Bump bump bump. Its Time for this thread to come back from the dead.

Let me preface with saying I dont need help with the decision anymore. I will be a vendor here on jeep forum in a very short time.

Its been some time since I have posted on jeep forum. Let alone in the fabrication section. Although I troll it daily.

as anyone who is familiar with this thread knows in the midst of my first attempt to become a vendor I was involved in a hit and run accident which resulted in one hell of a life changing experience and an interesting round of stories that usually make their way into a conversation over some cold beers. Ill just give the you guys the synopsis right quick and if you wanna know more well then we should find some beer.

So after accident I was given paim killers which oddly enough I joked about in a post on this thread....I had a torn ligament in my wrist as a result of the accident. I had both medical and auto insurance at the time. 3 doctors recommend surgery for the wrist but neither my personal or auto insurance was willing to foot the bill unless I had a round of steroid shots that proved unsuccessful. So four months after the accident I had my last steroid shot. Finally was able tp schedule a surgery at the auto insurance companys expense. It would be another 4 months till I actually had the surgery and because of the crooked deceitful insurance policies and my own ignorance I wound up 100% financially responsible for more than 80% all my medical expenses. Which was totally not awesome. It was then when I realized how important small business truly is for the country.

Heres where I shorten things up a bit. I Became severly addicted to pain medicine. Luckily I was able to kick the habbit before turning to a harder cheaper alternative. But my life had been thrown into mass disarray on a personal and financial level. And even after kicking the habbit the ride was still all down hill because of what I had done. Wound up living in my jeep for 3 months. Then it broke down and didn't have the money to fix it. 72 hours later it was Impounded and gone from me forever. My stubborn pride had a hard time resorting to something I had never done nor planned on doing and that was to ask my parents for help. They agreed and bought me a grey hound bus ticket to their place in Montana. With a sense of stability and security I was able to really focus on getting a new job and start working my way out of the hole I dug.

Within a couple weeks I was on a plane to Akutan Alaska or as most people who have ever been there call it 'akutraz'. I was there working with a construction contractor 7 days a week 14-16 hours a day for four months. Needless to say I made Enough money to reset my life plus a little extra.

So here I am some 2 years later and I have found that although my goal of running my own business is still the same my Outlook on the world has changed which alters the way in which I pursue my goals.

I came back this forum and thread specifically because I respected the real input and feedback that got bounced around in a civil manner between professional and amateur jeep guys and fabricators.

Since I have been back from Alaska I decided to forgo my next trip up there and roll the dice on myself and my business and my ability to succeed in both. And since I committed to it nearly 12 whole weeks ago things have been going great. We have had more people referred to us from customers than we have had people respond to an add. Its been really hectic for just a 2 man operation and truthfully it wasnt until a month ago when I bought a new xj that becoming a vendor was suddenly something I felt I should be pursuing.

The success we have achieved in such a short time I dont believe will be short lived. And although I don't know the true demon that owning a business can be at times I have found great success in correcting many of the errors I had made when I was 21 that hindered my success in this same endeavor.

However when I was 21 I was the smartest person on the forums, at work and in life in general. I didn't make mistakes, ever. Everyone else was wrong no matter what. Thick headed an arrogant I couldnt accept the fact that someone I built something for would have the audacity to question the quality of my work. I mean hey I was 21 and smarter than everybody. what did they know. And even though I had only 2 customer who had serious issues with a product and 2 who had minor Issues oit of the 86 products I built back then. Im to lazy to pull up a calculator to find out what the percentage is but knowing what I know now if its not 100% of your customers minus 'that one guy' (because there will always be 'that one guy' haha) then the system is flawed. A man is only worth his word and a hand shake on a job well done.

Now that Im now 24 I understand things a little more clearly now. Ive become far less intelligent and find myself learning new things every day and embrace the fact that I have to make a couple phone calls or read online for an hour to figure something out. I make mistakes all the time now and suddenly everyone elses input is important to me and I hope the worlds best fabricator in the history of forever comes to my shop to grade the quality of my work. Id be taking notes like a college student. And while I stand behind my products, their quality and craftsmanship today I also stand by my word to strive for customer satisfaction and that includes 4 unhappy customers from the past. to those 4 people who I believe at least 2 of them to be members of jeep forum I want to offer you the product you originally purchased from me a bumper, rack, sliders or whatever it was rebuilt and made brand new to your exact specifications and attention to detail free of charge in exchange for nothing but my clear conscious in at least making an effort to right the past. ( so if you are one of those 4 people please contact me, and also please refrain from pretending to be one of those 4 people. I remember the people pretty well as far as appearance because I dodged their calls for some time. It would waste my time and just be bad karma headed your way)

Sorry this is getting long but I felt that in order for me to be successful in my future endeavors with my shop and on this forum I had to be honest about who I was, who I am, and who I strive to be. And though the anonymity of the internet is a wonderful thing im not afraid to be honest.

We are a small 2 man operation working 7 days a week just to keep up. We are considering bringing in a 3rd partner who would focus and keep track of our website once it gets finished and on sales and community involvement. Since we offer an on site tractor repair service for alot of the times free for farmers within 15 miles of the shop. I mean who better to be on good terms with than the farmers. The more good we do the more good things happen and we dont want to try and rewrite that formula.

So to start wrapping this up:

I am hoping to receive positive posts with suggestions, tips, questions and discussions about the need to support small business in your local community. However im prepared for the negative comments as well.

If you are one or know one of the 4 people who were unsatisfied with my products please give them my contact information

I am not here to get rich, I am here to provide a service to my community whether local or online, benefiting monetarily comes up a far second to ensuring customer satisfaction and obtaining and keeping the faith in our companies moral reputation.

I will be obtaining my vendor account hopefully Friday, just waiting to finalize our new insurance policy on the shop before we do it.

Our website won't go up till after we get our vendor account on the forum is actived

If you are local to the portland/Vancouver and need/want something built then shoot me an email or txt or call. Even if you have a small budget we would love to try and work something out with you.

I will post pics of the shop and some current projects tomorrow evening since my camera is in the shop.

My name is Danny Roark; Rough Tough & Reliable Fabrication is the name of our company. We design, engineer, and coordinate custom builds. Customer satisfaction is our primary goal. We are a community based company committed to excellence in craftsmanship.

Our email address is: RTRfab@gmail.com
Our phone number is: 360-907-0446

"Without you, there is no us"- Eric Tomorrow
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