$30 TJ Fold Down Tailgate (and stuck torx bolt removal) - Page 6 - JeepForum.com
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Unread 04-12-2011, 12:31 PM   #76
NalinMFG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coyote_94yj View Post
Oh, now that is a good idea. When I armor up my Jeep I think I will replace the ones I have now with hood hinges or door hinges.

Thanks Cooter.
door hinges= detachable tailgate

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Unread 04-12-2011, 01:09 PM   #77
coyote_94yj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigertrack1600m View Post
door hinges= detachable tailgate
Very true. I like the way you think.
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Unread 04-12-2011, 02:26 PM   #78
Cooter92YJ
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So, would you make both halves of the door hinges have 3 bolts, or leave them as they are- three on one half and two on the other? And probably what 1/4" nutserts?
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Unread 04-12-2011, 02:58 PM   #79
rlockwood
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigertrack1600m View Post
door hinges= detachable tailgate
ehh.. a tj's door hinge puts the pin into a single shear in this application, i'm not sure it'll hold up to much weight.
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Unread 04-12-2011, 05:11 PM   #80
rnorma1
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Use 3 then!

I like the removable tailgate idea!
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Unread 04-12-2011, 08:51 PM   #81
coyote_94yj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooter92YJ View Post
So, would you make both halves of the door hinges have 3 bolts, or leave them as they are- three on one half and two on the other? And probably what 1/4" nutserts?
No. Use 5/16 nutserts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlockwood View Post
ehh.. a tj's door hinge puts the pin into a single shear in this application, i'm not sure it'll hold up to much weight.
I would have to disagree. The amount of weight it would take to shear the 3/8" treated steel rod in the hinge is a lot. The shear strength of a 3/8 threaded rod is about 4000 lbs. The hinge pin is a lot stronger than a piece of threaded rod.

Plus you have to consider that the load will be distributed between 4 points(2 hinges and 2 cables) Those cables will go long before the hinges will. Besides that it's a jeep tailgate. What are you going to be loading on it that will weigh that much?
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Unread 04-12-2011, 09:29 PM   #82
rlockwood
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Less worried about the pin shearing, more worried about the hole it sits in wallowing out from a cantilevered load only being supported on one side.

I'm not saying it won't work, and it probably will work great at first. Just that the hinge wasn't designed to function with weight on the pin, so I would question its longevity.
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Unread 04-12-2011, 09:39 PM   #83
coyote_94yj
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Add a 3rd screw in the centered between the two already there. I have 4 fasteners in the ones I'm running now and I can jump up and down all day long on mine and I weight 185. What are you going to be putting on the tailgate that is going to weight that much?
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Unread 04-13-2011, 12:01 AM   #84
rlockwood
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coyote_94yj View Post
Add a 3rd screw in the centered between the two already there. I have 4 fasteners in the ones I'm running now and I can jump up and down all day long on mine and I weight 185. What are you going to be putting on the tailgate that is going to weight that much?
You appear to be using a hinge that supports the pivot pin on both ends, correct?

Remember, i'm mostly just busting balls here, as again-- I bet the door hinge would work great. I still believe my argument is valid however. The orientation of a beam, cantilevered beam (i.e. a standard TJ door hinge) or supported beam (i.e. the hinges you're currently using) has a HUGE effect on the beams ability to resist bending. Feel free to research the euler-bernoulli beam equation to figure out just how much that rod can support.

Besides, how often is having a removable drop down tailgate REALLY going to come in handy? Probably a larger factor to keep in mind is.. if you leave the nut off the end of the bolt as most do with their door hinges, it will have a much larger likelyhood of working itself out while you rattle down the highway. If you leave the nut on the end of the bolt, then it really doesnt save you much time (when you decide to go 'tailgate-less') over a double shear setup, right?
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Unread 04-13-2011, 01:31 AM   #85
coyote_94yj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlockwood View Post
You appear to be using a hinge that supports the pivot pin on both ends, correct?

Remember, i'm mostly just busting balls here, as again-- I bet the door hinge would work great. I still believe my argument is valid however. The orientation of a beam, cantilevered beam (i.e. a standard TJ door hinge) or supported beam (i.e. the hinges you're currently using) has a HUGE effect on the beams ability to resist bending. Feel free to research the euler-bernoulli beam equation to figure out just how much that rod can support.

Besides, how often is having a removable drop down tailgate REALLY going to come in handy? Probably a larger factor to keep in mind is.. if you leave the nut off the end of the bolt as most do with their door hinges, it will have a much larger likelyhood of working itself out while you rattle down the highway. If you leave the nut on the end of the bolt, then it really doesnt save you much time (when you decide to go 'tailgate-less') over a double shear setup, right?
If you don't want to use a door hinge that's great. I could really care less about the euler-bernoulli beam equation. AGAIN, it's just a Jeep tailgate. When, if ever, will it see enough weight to matter if it has a door hinge on it or not. And how can a closed and latched tailgate rattle loose?!?! It's not possible. Can you lift up and remove your doors while they are closed?!?! I didn't think so.
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Unread 04-13-2011, 08:50 AM   #86
rlockwood
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Because the pin would sit horizontal, it is no longer secured by gravity it could rattle loose. I've carried numerous loads in the back of my jeep over 500 lbs. If I switch to a drop down tail gate, those loads would need to rest on the tailgate while being loaded. I doubt I'm the only one who sometimes uses their jeep as a small truck.

Once you put your idea on a forum, its no longer "just a jeep tailgate." Before I knew better, I blindly followed recommendations of others online only to wind up worse off. People often show up with excellent ideas that are half cocked or prone to eventual failure and fail to note their downfalls. My only interest is to make the best project I can, and am only looking out for others who are interested in the same.

Anyhow, if you use the door hinges, get back to everyone in a year or so, if be genuinely curious how it works out.
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Unread 04-13-2011, 01:50 PM   #87
coyote_94yj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlockwood View Post
Because the pin would sit horizontal, it is no longer secured by gravity it could rattle loose. I didn't think that would be a difficult concept. I didn't say the gate would rattle loose.
First, sorry for getting pissy last night. My daughter's becoming a teenager and starting to act like it so I wasn't in the best mood.

We must not be on the same page because I'm not seeing it. I'm trying to understand how it can rattle loose. The pin itself is pressed into the top half of the hinge so the pin itself cannot rattle out. The pin does slide into the lower part of the hinge which is held down by gravity in it's normal configuration. The lower half of the hinge would be secured to the body tub so it isn't going to move unless the fasteners come loose. The top half of the hinge is secured to the tailgate so it isn't going to move. The tailgate in the closed position can't move because it is recessed in the body. It can't shift to the right to allow the pins to slide out of the lower hinge pieces because there is Jeep body in the way. What parts are you referring to that would rattle out specifically? The hinge pin itself is pressed into one side. Are you talking about the two halves separating? The entire tailgate would have to completely shift to the right 2" for them to become separated. It can't do that because the door fame is in the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rlockwood View Post
I've carried numerous loads in the back of my jeep over 500 lbs. If I switch to a drop down tail gate, those loads would need to rest on the tailgate while being loaded. I doubt I'm the only one who sometimes uses their jeep as a small truck.
Yes, I do too. BUT it's going to take over 4000lbs(2 tons) to shear those pins. That is a lot to load into a Jeep. The frame is only rated at 1/4 ton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlockwood View Post
Once you put your idea on a forum, its no longer "just a jeep tailgate." Before I knew better, I blindly followed recommendations of others online only to wind up worse off. People often show up with excellent ideas that are half cocked or prone to eventual failure and fail to note their downfalls. My only interest is to make the best project I can, and am only looking out for others who are interested in the same.
Very true and I don't blame you.

There is one issue that does need mentioning. If the nuts aren't on the pins and the tailgate is down it is very possible for the tailgate to rattle off or get knocked off. All you'd have to do is lean on the wrong side and its done.
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Unread 04-13-2011, 02:12 PM   #88
rlockwood
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I suppose rattle isn't the proper word, perhaps "work" is more fitting.

As weight is applied to the end of the pin, the hole its pressed into will work its way to becoming a taper. A it taper. The pin will start to become wobbly, and eventually be able to work its way out. A double shear is preferable in this situation because the support on the opposite end simply doesn't allow it to happen.

And yes, I'm at work with nothing else to do but check jeep forum constantly.

I do like the idea of using stock oem jeep parts, I'm just not convinced they would work for me. I also wonder about their cost effectiveness, after all, what does a set run from the stealer? For what its worth, the cj tailgates with drop down hinges are all double shear, and I'm guessing its no coincidence.

I can't help but ask, where along the pin does the 4000lbs need to be placed to shear it? And how much force and leverage would be required to bend it 5°?
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Unread 04-13-2011, 06:18 PM   #89
coyote_94yj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlockwood View Post
I suppose rattle isn't the proper word, perhaps "work" is more fitting.

As weight is applied to the end of the pin, the hole its pressed into will work its way to becoming a taper. A it taper. The pin will start to become wobbly, and eventually be able to work its way out. A double shear is preferable in this situation because the support on the opposite end simply doesn't allow it to happen.
OK, now that makes sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rlockwood View Post
I do like the idea of using stock oem jeep parts, I'm just not convinced they would work for me. I also wonder about their cost effectiveness, after all, what does a set run from the stealer? For what its worth, the cj tailgates with drop down hinges are all double shear, and I'm guessing its no coincidence.
Oh, I wouldn't buy from the dealersh*t. I'd find someone parting out a Jeep or go to a wrecking yard to get hinges or get some aftermarket ones like from Steel Horse. Much cheaper that way. A set of CJ hinges might work for you better. For me personally the door hinges will be more than enough. Ya, I'll have transmissions and transfer cases and such on mine but I weigh more than anything that'll be on there so it will only have to support my weight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rlockwood View Post
I can't help but ask, where along the pin does the 4000lbs need to be placed to shear it? And how much force and leverage would be required to bend it 5°?
Well for the pin to shear the two hinge pieces would have to be butted together and the shearing would take place in the pin at the point where the two hinge pieces meet. The two hinge pieces would act like a pair of cable cutters. As far as bending, I don't think the pin would bend if the hinge pieces were all the way together, it would just shear. If you didn't have the nuts on and the tailgate shifted so there was a gap between the hinge pieces it would probably bend but I don't know what it would take to bend the pin. I don't have a spare set of hinges to test. I do have a press at work that I could try it out on. Also I think the farther the gap(the more the pin is visible) the easier it would be to bend the pin.
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Unread 04-18-2011, 05:53 PM   #90
NalinMFG
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i think im going to make a "tramp stamp" and weld these on:

...be a lot cheaper than OEM hinges, stronger, and greasable.
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