110v welder able to burn spring perches? - Page 3 - JeepForum.com
Search  
Sign Up   Today's Posts
User: Pass: Remember?
Advertise Here
Jeep Home Jeep Forum Jeep Classifieds Jeep Registry JeepSpace Jeep Reviews Jeep Gallery Jeep Clubs Jeep Groups Jeep Videos Jeep Events Jeep Articles
Go Back JeepForum.com > General Technical Discussions > Fabrication Shop > 110v welder able to burn spring perches?

Grizzly Lockers available at Rockridge4wd.comThe ULTIMATE "Selectable" Locker System! BroughYukon Ultimate 35 axle kit for c/clip axles with Yukon Zip

Reply
Unread 09-24-2010, 09:57 AM   #31
Ironworker709
Moderator
 
Ironworker709's Avatar
1995 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Millen Area,Georgia
Posts: 3,336
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgmrdc View Post
actually (not disagreeing with what you are saying) the Lincoln 135 is rated for 5/16 with .035 flux core... so technically, 1/4 is plenty doable...
True....BUT..as a i stated before..why put a machine at it's limit when using it for things that are safety related where it MIGHT work fine?..or worse yet..give a false sense of confidence that it is safe?.

This subject has been tackled,argued,one way to the other back and forth all over the net and in person,,but it always boils down to the people who DO weld and fabricate for a living are the ones who disagree TOTALY that these 110v machines are sufficeint for anything past 1/4",no matter what the "advertised" potential for a 110v machine for the sales pitch...for a GOOD reason.

When you use .035 wire on a 110v machine,you will have to turn it up as high it will go to get good penetration AND be able to keep up with the heat needed for .035..as i've heard from some who just don't know..turning the wire speed down to "seemingly" make it a hotter pass is a mis-conception..turning the wire speed down only causes the wire to burn off further away from the weldment,causing the heat to be FURTHER way from where it NEEDS to be,IN THE WELDMENT...not above it.
I don't care what anyone suggests about the wire speed,there is only one RIGHT wire speed according the heat being used in the machine and size wire being used..
...too much speed causes the wire to burn IN the puddle,this causes several problems..a fill that LOOKS like its filled,but yet only burned in a little but the extra wire that is being burned is just laying on top of the actual weld where it was actualy "burned in".
Not enough wire speed will cause the wire to burn BEFORE it gets to the needed area needing the penetration,it will cause the puddle to lay high on the weldment,causing very little penetration where needed..it's just laying there..it looks "pretty" because it MAY lay flatter,but it's conceiving to the untrained eye because underneath it did not penetrate INTO the base metal.
All your heat is generated at the VERY tip of the wire/rod being used..so that spot right there HAS to be where the penetration is needed..and with a 110v machine it is MUCH more critical to get that just right,for the fact it just plain old does not generate much heat for thicker material...a 220v is more forgiving,especialy for the amatuer because it generates ALOT more heat to get a BIGGER area of heat and "burn in" and fill,so that insures someone who doesn;t do it every day as a career has that much more insurance that they will get a much better weldment that will hold up...

Bottom line AGAIN..i just plain and simple will NEVER say"sure it's ok,because you have nothing else to use,go ahead and use it,it'll be just fine buddy!"
..i'm a bottom line type of person and NEVER sugar coat,whether it's my family,,freinds or even my worst enemy..i am un-biased when it comes to people and opinions..i never take a side just because he/she is my freind,if i did,,i would be a liar just to take a side to be a freind,and that's not gonna happen with me...

__________________
Don't DREAM your life, LIVE your dreams

Never forget 9/11

"Welding is like a woman,Get 'er HOT and Penetrate"

Gotta LOVE a person who knows everything about NOTHING

The only Thing necessary for the Evil to win is a good man to do nothing....

"How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young,compassionate with the aged,sympathetic with the striving,and tolerant with the weak and strong--because someday YOU will have been all of these"....George Washington Carver

Want to know what an Ironworker is and the job scope of a Journeyman?..click here...http://www.ironworkers.org/becoming/careers.aspx
Ironworker709 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 09-24-2010, 02:14 PM   #32
Ironworker709
Moderator
 
Ironworker709's Avatar
1995 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Millen Area,Georgia
Posts: 3,336
Here's a GREAT read and pictures of actual penetration in a few different techniques while welding with wirefeed
These pictures he took clearly shows the REAL penetration as i was trying to explain in here...

Notice on ALL the downhill methods,( i've also been involved in many debates of that VERY POOR method too)there is little to no penetration no matter what heat setting,,and he's using a 220v Miller 251...
You get the same results using a 110v machine on thicker materials,,very LITTLE penetration but sure is a nice looking weld to the eye!

Mig Welding Techniques - for vertical welding - uphill, downhill

This is just give an idea to those who don't know the REAL factor of penetration,not just because it LOOKED good to the eye,you need penetration INTO the base metal itself.....as i was TRYING to explain already.
__________________
Don't DREAM your life, LIVE your dreams

Never forget 9/11

"Welding is like a woman,Get 'er HOT and Penetrate"

Gotta LOVE a person who knows everything about NOTHING

The only Thing necessary for the Evil to win is a good man to do nothing....

"How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young,compassionate with the aged,sympathetic with the striving,and tolerant with the weak and strong--because someday YOU will have been all of these"....George Washington Carver

Want to know what an Ironworker is and the job scope of a Journeyman?..click here...http://www.ironworkers.org/becoming/careers.aspx
Ironworker709 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 09-24-2010, 03:40 PM   #33
Jim1611
Web Wheeler
 
Jim1611's Avatar
1985 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,655
Here's something else to consider with the lower amperage welders. I will not argue that many things can be welded with them at thier highest settings that will hold just fine. But... They all operate with a very short duty cycle. Turn them up at the high amps and you may find yourself getting to stop in the middle of a weld that needs to be burned in. Starts and stops make cold spots in the welded joint and they will not be as strong as they should be. You can work around this by not trying to weld everything all at once.

Welding anything that needs to hold together for safety sake is serious business and should be treated as such. I think we all have seen way too many comments on here about people tyrying to skimp and get by.

Sometimes these debates make me miss PRC.
__________________
www.crabtreetool.com (Crabtree Shackle Hangers)

My build thread
http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f8/ji...build-1093702/
Jim1611 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 09-24-2010, 04:14 PM   #34
Kettles
Registered User
2001 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Louisville, Kentucky
Posts: 4,177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironworker709 View Post
Notice on ALL the downhill methods,( i've also been involved in many debates of that VERY POOR method too)there is little to no penetration no matter what heat setting,,and he's using a 220v Miller 251...
I dont want to get involved in this debate, I did want to mention I don't know what the argument FOR downhill welding could be anyway... Vertical up welding is one of my favorite types, and I think they look better than any v-down, atleast when you know how to run one (as I do).

I suppose the only possible v-down is better with mig argument would be a non structural outside corner, or something like that, with no loads ever.

Back to the screaming about 110
__________________
_=====o000o
//__l_l_,\____\,____
l_--\_l__l_/--|lllll|
_.(o)_)__.(o)_)--o-)_)
"Dee", a Patriot Blue 2001 Cherokee Sport 4.0L High-Output Pictures Build Thread
The Rocket Sheep
"Live Free Or Die; Death Is Not The Worst of Evils." -General John Stark
Quote:
Originally Posted by speedbucket View Post
perfect depends on how far away you are when you look at it:D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Millermagic View Post
It's a 4.0 ... as long as there's something in the crank case that isn't coolant I'm sure it will still run forever.
Kettles is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 09-24-2010, 05:08 PM   #35
Ironworker709
Moderator
 
Ironworker709's Avatar
1995 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Millen Area,Georgia
Posts: 3,336
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kettles View Post
I dont want to get involved in this debate, I did want to mention I don't know what the argument FOR downhill welding could be anyway... Vertical up welding is one of my favorite types, and I think they look better than any v-down, atleast when you know how to run one (as I do).

I suppose the only possible v-down is better with mig argument would be a non structural outside corner, or something like that, with no loads ever.

Back to the screaming about 110
There has been several arguements on different forums and in person i've been involved in where some people THINK running a downhill is just as good as a vertical with good burn in because they can't run a good looking vertical.
__________________
Don't DREAM your life, LIVE your dreams

Never forget 9/11

"Welding is like a woman,Get 'er HOT and Penetrate"

Gotta LOVE a person who knows everything about NOTHING

The only Thing necessary for the Evil to win is a good man to do nothing....

"How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young,compassionate with the aged,sympathetic with the striving,and tolerant with the weak and strong--because someday YOU will have been all of these"....George Washington Carver

Want to know what an Ironworker is and the job scope of a Journeyman?..click here...http://www.ironworkers.org/becoming/careers.aspx
Ironworker709 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 09-24-2010, 08:44 PM   #36
dodger889
Registered User
1989 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: mi
Posts: 4,161
Some one mentioned duty cycles. This I under a great deal about. I have seen in this forum every one give what they think is right or wrong. When it says 20% duty cycle that does not mean 1 minute of work time then 20 minutes of cooling off. Actually it's one minute of work and 5 minuted of cool cool down time or multiples there of to about a max of 10 minutes of straight max load. So in the home usage I could not see someone welding for that long at max rating. That is a percent of an hour to be used work time under full load. Even the 220v unit that every one is all over are 30% duty cycles at full load. Which are what most home shops have in them. So with a 30% unit you could weld for 18 minutes out of every hour at max load. Here another little bit of information. Now you could get a 20% and 30% up in time with longer up time at max load periods by increasing the air flow over the electrics and lager heatsinks inside. Why do the manufactures do not this cost. Seeing how IRONWORKER as seen consumer models and industrail (trades) models. He should have noticed the weight differences between the two.
__________________
A 89 yj with a 4.0 aw4 sye out of an 92xj. Now the hard part is done time to get it up in the air just a bit. Working on 8.8 with 3.73 and lsd for the rear. and new D30 hp with 3.73 .
For those who have not figured this out I'm old school but can handle the new too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigsquat View Post
im just cheap, and cheap makes you creative.
dodger889 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 09-24-2010, 08:49 PM   #37
dodger889
Registered User
1989 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: mi
Posts: 4,161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironworker709 View Post
There has been several arguements on different forums and in person i've been involved in where some people THINK running a downhill is just as good as a vertical with good burn in because they can't run a good looking vertical.

Dumb question how can you see the puddle welding down hill vs uphill?? Gravity does not always have advantage sometime it's a hindrance.
__________________
A 89 yj with a 4.0 aw4 sye out of an 92xj. Now the hard part is done time to get it up in the air just a bit. Working on 8.8 with 3.73 and lsd for the rear. and new D30 hp with 3.73 .
For those who have not figured this out I'm old school but can handle the new too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigsquat View Post
im just cheap, and cheap makes you creative.
dodger889 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 09-24-2010, 09:04 PM   #38
Ironworker709
Moderator
 
Ironworker709's Avatar
1995 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Millen Area,Georgia
Posts: 3,336
Quote:
Originally Posted by dodger889 View Post
Some one mentioned duty cycles. This I under a great deal about. I have seen in this forum every one give what they think is right or wrong. When it says 20% duty cycle that does not mean 1 minute of work time then 20 minutes of cooling off. Actually it's one minute of work and 5 minuted of cool cool down time or multiples there of to about a max of 10 minutes of straight max load. So in the home usage I could not see someone welding for that long at max rating. That is a percent of an hour to be used work time under full load. Even the 220v unit that every one is all over are 30% duty cycles at full load. Which are what most home shops have in them. So with a 30% unit you could weld for 18 minutes out of every hour at max load. Here another little bit of information. Now you could get a 20% and 30% up in time with longer up time at max load periods by increasing the air flow over the electrics and lager heatsinks inside. Why do the manufactures do not this cost. Seeing how IRONWORKER as seen consumer models and industrail (trades) models. He should have noticed the weight differences between the two.
What does the weight of a machine have ANYTHING to do with a 110v vs 220v in comparison to good penetration,,which is what i THOUGHT this thread was all about???..ummm..was i supposed to give everyone the weight and size of all the different machines here too?..you are REALLY confusing me now...

You are REALLY reaching now.......
__________________
Don't DREAM your life, LIVE your dreams

Never forget 9/11

"Welding is like a woman,Get 'er HOT and Penetrate"

Gotta LOVE a person who knows everything about NOTHING

The only Thing necessary for the Evil to win is a good man to do nothing....

"How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young,compassionate with the aged,sympathetic with the striving,and tolerant with the weak and strong--because someday YOU will have been all of these"....George Washington Carver

Want to know what an Ironworker is and the job scope of a Journeyman?..click here...http://www.ironworkers.org/becoming/careers.aspx
Ironworker709 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 09-24-2010, 09:08 PM   #39
Ironworker709
Moderator
 
Ironworker709's Avatar
1995 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Millen Area,Georgia
Posts: 3,336
Quote:
Originally Posted by dodger889 View Post
Dumb question how can you see the puddle welding down hill vs uphill?? Gravity does not always have advantage sometime it's a hindrance.
Another one that is really reaching out...who said anything about seeing the puddle in a downhill??..i ONLY explained the difference in the 2 methods and which have 100% more penetration....which would be running UPHILL...

Holy Kamoly dude!...get a grip...... please.....
__________________
Don't DREAM your life, LIVE your dreams

Never forget 9/11

"Welding is like a woman,Get 'er HOT and Penetrate"

Gotta LOVE a person who knows everything about NOTHING

The only Thing necessary for the Evil to win is a good man to do nothing....

"How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young,compassionate with the aged,sympathetic with the striving,and tolerant with the weak and strong--because someday YOU will have been all of these"....George Washington Carver

Want to know what an Ironworker is and the job scope of a Journeyman?..click here...http://www.ironworkers.org/becoming/careers.aspx
Ironworker709 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 09-24-2010, 09:28 PM   #40
BESRK
GROUND POUNDER
 
BESRK's Avatar
1980 CJ5 
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newport News, VA
Posts: 12,274
I normally only run a weld downhill on thin stuff like sheetmetal.. where you don't want a lot of penetration anyway. When MIG welding downhill, I can see the difference in the way the puddle flows. It sort of tries to run over the metal below it (for lack of a better way to describe it).. kind of like a lava flow..

As for a welder's weight used for comparing duty cycle..etc. Keep in mind, there are a lot of inverter based welders that don't weigh very much at all.. but will run full throttle with really good duty cycle..
__________________
'80 CJ5 w/AMC360, T176, D44 w/Detroit 4.56, RE 4" YJ lift and 35s..

Ground Pounder Fab


Lower 2

Guardrail

Down Schoolbus

Slickrock Tellico

Save

Crozet

More Crozet
BESRK is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 09-24-2010, 11:27 PM   #41
wushaw
Rockin jeep
 
wushaw's Avatar
2000 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 8,163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironworker709 View Post
Here's a GREAT read and pictures of actual penetration in a few different techniques while welding with wirefeed
These pictures he took clearly shows the REAL penetration as i was trying to explain in here...

Notice on ALL the downhill methods,( i've also been involved in many debates of that VERY POOR method too)there is little to no penetration no matter what heat setting,,and he's using a 220v Miller 251...
You get the same results using a 110v machine on thicker materials,,very LITTLE penetration but sure is a nice looking weld to the eye!

Mig Welding Techniques - for vertical welding - uphill, downhill

This is just give an idea to those who don't know the REAL factor of penetration,not just because it LOOKED good to the eye,you need penetration INTO the base metal itself.....as i was TRYING to explain already.

Thanks for the link, I will have to try that method.
wushaw is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 09-24-2010, 11:34 PM   #42
schitzangiggles
King of Macastan
 
schitzangiggles's Avatar
1993 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Rigby, Idaho, Macastan (Idaho)
Posts: 6,169
This thread has inspired me. I think I will mosey on over to the aviation forum and argue how to repair AC with some guys that do it for a living, wish me luck!
__________________
"Axeheads are supposed to be sharp, but you are one blunt tool."
FLynes



If you love wealth more than liberty,the tranquility of servitude more than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains sit lightly on your shoulders and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.
-Samual Adams

A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you have.
Thomas Jefferson

Calling Illegal Aliens "Undocumented Immigrants" is like calling drug dealers "Unlicensed Pharmacists"

Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
"No one provokes (attacks) me with impunity".


"Your right, the Tea Party and the OWS are the same, just like the America Revolution and the French Revolution were the same. The only problem is the American Revolution ended with Liberty, Freedom, Justice for all and a shining light upon a hill. The French Revolution ended with lynchings, guillotines, murder and socialism. So yeah, I could see how one could confuse the two..."

Mac Wilson
schitzangiggles is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 09-24-2010, 11:49 PM   #43
mistertierney
Registered User
1998 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cloverdale, BC
Posts: 150
The bloody axle is held on with the u bolts anyway. It's not like the axle is gonna come flying out from under the jeep, tumbling down the highway, crashing into the innocent family minivan if your welds break?

Put the sucker in there. Tack it all up. Pull it out, wire wheel all the dirt, rust scale and oil off. Next rotate the axle into a position where you can hit the perches with a nice slow hot uphand. Crank the heat and give it your favorite weave style on the way up and call it a day.

Look, i'm just a punk kid with a shiitload of welding expirience (industrial and at home) I would have no doubts that your lincon 140 can burn those perches on solid.
__________________
nick
mistertierney is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 09-25-2010, 12:15 AM   #44
schitzangiggles
King of Macastan
 
schitzangiggles's Avatar
1993 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Rigby, Idaho, Macastan (Idaho)
Posts: 6,169
And you argue with certified welders who have done it for a living for years...
If you think Ubolts will hold anything in place under load (braking, swerving etc) you are sadly mistaken.
Do what you feel comfortable doing, just hope you don't kill any one I know.
__________________
"Axeheads are supposed to be sharp, but you are one blunt tool."
FLynes



If you love wealth more than liberty,the tranquility of servitude more than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains sit lightly on your shoulders and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.
-Samual Adams

A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you have.
Thomas Jefferson

Calling Illegal Aliens "Undocumented Immigrants" is like calling drug dealers "Unlicensed Pharmacists"

Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
"No one provokes (attacks) me with impunity".


"Your right, the Tea Party and the OWS are the same, just like the America Revolution and the French Revolution were the same. The only problem is the American Revolution ended with Liberty, Freedom, Justice for all and a shining light upon a hill. The French Revolution ended with lynchings, guillotines, murder and socialism. So yeah, I could see how one could confuse the two..."

Mac Wilson
schitzangiggles is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 09-25-2010, 12:17 AM   #45
wushaw
Rockin jeep
 
wushaw's Avatar
2000 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 8,163
Quote:
Originally Posted by schitzangiggles View Post
This thread has inspired me. I think I will mosey on over to the aviation forum and argue how to repair AC with some guys that do it for a living, wish me luck!
While your there ask em how does Skydrol feel on tender parts of the body

Quote:
Originally Posted by mistertierney View Post
The bloody axle is held on with the u bolts anyway. It's not like the axle is gonna come flying out from under the jeep, tumbling down the highway, crashing into the innocent family minivan if your welds break?

Put the sucker in there. Tack it all up. Pull it out, wire wheel all the dirt, rust scale and oil off. Next rotate the axle into a position where you can hit the perches with a nice slow hot uphand. Crank the heat and give it your favorite weave style on the way up and call it a day.

Look, i'm just a punk kid with a shiitload of welding expirience (industrial and at home) I would have no doubts that your lincon 140 can burn those perches on solid.
You do have a point on U bolt spring perches.
wushaw is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the JeepForum.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid e-mail address for yourself.
Note: All free e-mails have been banned due to mis-use. (Yahoo, Gmail, Hotmail, etc.)
Don't have a non-free e-mail address? Click here for a solution: Manual Account Creation
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.


Thread Tools


Suggested Threads





Jeep, Wrangler, Cherokee, Grand Cherokee, and other models are copyrighted and trademarked to Jeep/Chrysler Corporation. JeepForum.com is not in any way associated with Jeep or the Chrysler Corp.