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Unread 09-22-2010, 10:02 PM   #16
schitzangiggles
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Unread 09-23-2010, 05:24 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by schitzangiggles View Post
It never ceases to amaze me the guys that will argue welding do's and don't's with guys that do this stuff for a living. It would be like me telling my flight instructor with 5,000 + hrs that he doesn't know WTF he is talking about with stall recovery because I stayed in a Holiday Inn last night and my home built AC hasn't had the wings fall off yet in 10hrs of flight time.

Taking shortcuts on a safety item/system is a sure fire way to ensure a less than favorable out come. If something ever does break loose resulting in an accident, you had better hope that they over look the shoddy welds. If the accident results in a fatality better believe the State Police and the Ins. Co. are going to be looking at everything with a fine tooth comb. Is saving $60-$100 dollars worth that? Criminal negligence and the civil liabilities would seem to out weigh the "easy fix".
But hey, I slept in a Holiday Inn once or twice, what do I know...
I'm not arguing with anyone nor am I discounting them either. But people have to understand. It's not what you have it's how you use it that can make the difference. Just because the pro's in here think that their way is the only way to weld. Just that a welder is going to do the same weather it's 220v or 110v at the same amperage. Granted the 220v welder will be able to do a long weld at one time vs the 110v welder. Now I would like to know that the pro's that weld in here for a living what amperage that they weld at when welding perched on a axle. First of all you still have only a certain thickness of materiel on the perch itself. That is all the strength you are going to have for strength. Which I have not seen to be no thicker than 1/4 inch being (most are 3/16 inch) welded to a tube that is about 3/8 inch thick. Too much is as bad as too little.
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Unread 09-23-2010, 07:19 AM   #18
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Let's not get all ruffled up fellas.. we're just having a discussion/debate.

I don't tell people what to do.. I tell them what I would do (at least that's what it sounds like in my head ).

There are numerous areas on a Jeep that I would have no problem welding with a 110v welder, suspension mounting points are normally not on that list. Granted, I can say that because I do have a few 220v welders (stick, MIG and TIG) but even when all I had was a 110v wire feed, I tacked perches on and dragged the axles to someone with a 220 to have 'em burned in.

Eventually I saved pennies, sold parts, did side jobs, and sneaked money from the wife's purse so that I could run down to Lowe's and buy a Lincoln Tombstone on sale for $199.
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Unread 09-23-2010, 11:15 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by dodger889 View Post
I'm not arguing with anyone nor am I discounting them either. But people have to understand. It's not what you have it's how you use it that can make the difference. Just because the pro's in here think that their way is the only way to weld. Just that a welder is going to do the same weather it's 220v or 110v at the same amperage. Granted the 220v welder will be able to do a long weld at one time vs the 110v welder. Now I would like to know that the pro's that weld in here for a living what amperage that they weld at when welding perched on a axle. First of all you still have only a certain thickness of materiel on the perch itself. That is all the strength you are going to have for strength. Which I have not seen to be no thicker than 1/4 inch being (most are 3/16 inch) welded to a tube that is about 3/8 inch thick. Too much is as bad as too little.
But in order to get the same amount of penetration on the axle tube (being thicker and acting as a heat sink drawing the heat out of the weld and into the rest of the tube) you have to use more heat. Destructive testing your welds (welding some scrap together then either cutting it apart to look for inclusions, porosity and penetration or pulling them apart by hammering or in a press) will teach you a lot about your welds and the process you are using. A 120v Welder simply cannot generate enough heat to reliably get the penetration in the thicker materiel. I can tell you with absolute certainty that welds that look textbook perfect if not burned in with enough heat or using the wrong technique will fail. Click on that link and scroll down near the bottom to see some welds that looked great, but when sectioned (cut so you can see "through" the weld) just how poor they really were. When I was an Iron Worker I saw some welds that looked like they should be in a text book, but the only problem was there was not enough penetration into either side and failed testing at very low stress levels because of not using enough amperage on the weld and poor technique/incorrect process. I developed sensitivity to the fumes from welding or I would still be doing that.
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Unread 09-23-2010, 12:11 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by schitzangiggles View Post
But in order to get the same amount of penetration on the axle tube (being thicker and acting as a heat sink drawing the heat out of the weld and into the rest of the tube) you have to use more heat. Destructive testing your welds (welding some scrap together then either cutting it apart to look for inclusions, porosity and penetration or pulling them apart by hammering or in a press) will teach you a lot about your welds and the process you are using. A 120v Welder simply cannot generate enough heat to reliably get the penetration in the thicker materiel. I can tell you with absolute certainty that welds that look textbook perfect if not burned in with enough heat or using the wrong technique will fail. Click on that link and scroll down near the bottom to see some welds that looked great, but when sectioned (cut so you can see "through" the weld) just how poor they really were. When I was an Iron Worker I saw some welds that looked like they should be in a text book, but the only problem was there was not enough penetration into either side and failed testing at very low stress levels because of not using enough amperage on the weld and poor technique/incorrect process. I developed sensitivity to the fumes from welding or I would still be doing that.
OK the question is still unanswered How many amps are would you be using to do the welding like perches on an axle???

And what wire size that is what I precluded in what I posted ..030 wire will not carry the amps has in the .035 wire would. You would be surprised how much stronger a weld will be just because of the right size wire or stick thickness .

Even on 220v welder you are not using the max amps to weld with grant you are pushing a 110v welder to the limits of output but it can be done.
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For those who have not figured this out I'm old school but can handle the new too.
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im just cheap, and cheap makes you creative.
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Unread 09-23-2010, 06:10 PM   #21
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schitzngiggles is dead on.....

You just simply do NOT get anywhere near the amperage/heat on a 110v welder,just because a 110v welder CAN burn .035 wire,does not mean it's gettin the heat to penetrate the axle tube,welding anything like that i crank my Lincoln 180 up as high as it will go and compensate the wire speed for the fill to make sure i am getting the best possible burn in/penetration.

I've had a 110v Lincoln 135 Pro Mig,,and used it for a few years before going with a 220v Lincoln 180 Pro Mig..there just is NO comparison to the heat difference in the 2.

I've even tryed to weld 3/16 with that 110v machine as hot as it would go,the penetration was VERY poor,it liked to lay the weld on top and crown way too much..so i never speak of "textbook" or "internet knowledge"..i've been there..done that..tryed it,,cut it apart just to see the penetration..and it FAILED as far as any real penetration.
The only way you MIGHT get a good solid weld from them with 3/16 or thicker is a good preheat.

This is why i NEVER recommend a 110v welder for suspension or any safety related welding,i weld for a living,30+ years..and even i couldn't get sufficeint penetraion with them for anything like that..

But for welding around the house..fixing riding mowers,,lawn chairs and tables,maybe a truck bumper...etc etc..it worked OK.

Just because you can actualy bevel a base plate and fill the weld 100% does not mean it had got ANY kind of REAL penetration..this is THEE most important part of a weld,,not the "pretty looking" welds,no matter what it looks like,if it didn't penetrate,,it's useless.
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Unread 09-23-2010, 06:35 PM   #22
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Well ****... I guess my Jeep should have broken into a million pieces then... ALL done by my HH140:





Would I love to have a 220v welder? You bet! And if I got one I would probably grind out all my weld and hit them again just for peace of mind.... but for the meantime I'm fairly certain mine are "good enough."


Would I recommend others do the same? No... I don't know how well they can weld.

FWIW all the critical things, I bevelled heavily, and made 2 to 3 passes at full heat... all VERY slow.

And for the axle tubes, I used a MAPP torch to heat up the tubes to at least get rid of the "cold" for a little better penetration.

Put 1200 miles on it, wheeled it a little bit and now daily driven.

So I won't say that a 110v CAN'T be used to put some spring perches on by someone that knows how to use it and make up for the welder's inadequacies, but I would recommend a 220v if possible.


My $0.02.
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Unread 09-23-2010, 08:05 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Ironworker709 View Post
This is why i NEVER recommend a 110v welder for suspension or any safety related welding,i weld for a living,30+ years..and even i couldn't get sufficeint penetraion with them for anything like that..

But for welding around the house..fixing riding mowers,,lawn chairs and tables,maybe a truck bumper...etc etc..it worked OK.

Just because you can actualy bevel a base plate and fill the weld 100% does not mean it had got ANY kind of REAL penetration..this is THEE most important part of a weld,,not the "pretty looking" welds,no matter what it looks like,if it didn't penetrate,,it's useless.
Well with your statement there. I guess I should remove the tabs I welded for tow bar on the front of the jeep. Which as already logged a few thousand miles on it.

OH by the way I weld these tabs on a piece of 1/4 inch C channel They are 3/16 thick flat steel. In fact I did one just to check my work and method to try to break it off with just a single pass on both side. I broke the flat bar off above the weld after beating on it for about 30 mins bending it back and forth.

Like I said if you know what you are doing and know what the limits of your equipment then you will not have a problem. Oh this was with a 110v hh140 plugged into it's own 110v plug Not on a 30 amp circuit not running any thing else. This is where maybe I can get a little more stability out of a 110v welder. Oh I could care less what the weld looks like.

And since you did make the statement you have been welding for 30 yrs. I will call you on that one. Because you cranked your welder all the way up but never said what welder you are doing this with and how many amps you are welding at. What wire size Because at 180 + amps you are more than likely causing yourself and other a disservice by causing metal to change to a very brittle piece of junk.
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A 89 yj with a 4.0 aw4 sye out of an 92xj. Now the hard part is done time to get it up in the air just a bit. Working on 8.8 with 3.73 and lsd for the rear. and new D30 hp with 3.73 .
For those who have not figured this out I'm old school but can handle the new too.
Quote:
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im just cheap, and cheap makes you creative.
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Unread 09-23-2010, 08:56 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by dodger889 View Post
And since you did make the statement you have been welding for 30 yrs. I will call you on that one. Because you cranked your welder all the way up but never said what welder you are doing this with and how many amps you are welding at. What wire size Because at 180 + amps you are more than likely causing yourself and other a disservice by causing metal to change to a very brittle piece of junk.
180 amps does NOT cause mild steel to turn to a "peice of junk"...

i already explained it's wide open..Lincoln 180 Pro Mig..10 GAUGE 90 foot cord,.035 hard wire..and fluxcore.

Mild steel can NEVER be "tempered"..if that's what you are TRYING to assume by putting too much heat on it..it's actualy the opposite,,mild steel never gets "brittle" in any welding or heat process,it gets 'softer".

I've welded PLENTY of mild steel with 200+ amps under procedures..brittle?...lol..that makes no sense to me at ALL

I'll weld some scrap 1/4" tomorrow with the 180 Lincoln WIDE open..with fluxcore and hard wire..and take plenty of pics..lets see how it turns out?..

And call bull on my 30+ years?..i geuss you COULD be right there..because it MIGHT be longer..since i started it as a career in 1978 in Wilmington Delaware out of local 451 Wilmington Delaware right out of high school as an apprentice..but before that?..my father was an engineer for the Chrysler Assembly Plant in Newark Delaware and ALWAYS had a few rod projects in the shop and i learned to stick weld at 15 in that garage/shop..so i geuss that would put it at ..what?..35 years or so?...I'm 50 in december..do the math...

Bottom line is..folks ALWAYS get upset i don't recommend a small amped 110v welder for safety related welds,...go for it...do what you want!..i don't care..but you'll NEVER see ME agree with what is the NOT the truth.....and these are PROVEN facts..not opinions...the only proven things otherwise..is SOME people get away with it with preheat..yes you beveled it and filled it 100%..but the FACT still lays there that that low of an amperage did NOT get sufficeint penetration INTO THE BASE METAL as a 220v machine WILL get....did you not read that web page Schitsngiggles posted?..those are ACTUAL photos of poor welds xrayed and cut..but they looked good on top!..

Lets Both call it tomorrow..i'll weld a peice of 1/4" scrap with my 220v..you do it with a 110v...then cut them both with a bandsaw so we can CLEARLY see the penetration on both...take pics of all the process...so we can BOTH see right HERE the actual penetration of both.....

Lemme know if the "game is on" tomorrow...have a nice night
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Unread 09-23-2010, 09:03 PM   #25
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I don't tell people what to do.. I tell them what I would do....
I love that! ^^ That would make a great signature! That's what these forums are all about.

Personally, I find that my 110v wire welder does great up to 1/8" steel... any bigger than that, and I'll break out my 220v stick welder.

However, if I didn't have a stick welder, I think I could do a pretty good job welding spring perches with a 110v wire welder... but that's just me, and only on my own equipment.

For what it's worth, BESRK seems to know his stuff, and he'll tell it to you straight... if you've got someone like him around who will burn it in with high power, you should probably do that.
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Unread 09-23-2010, 10:19 PM   #26
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Well with your statement there. I guess I should remove the tabs I welded for tow bar on the front of the jeep. Which as already logged a few thousand miles on it.

OH by the way I weld these tabs on a piece of 1/4 inch C channel They are 3/16 thick flat steel. In fact I did one just to check my work and method to try to break it off with just a single pass on both side. I broke the flat bar off above the weld after beating on it for about 30 mins bending it back and forth.

Like I said if you know what you are doing and know what the limits of your equipment then you will not have a problem. Oh this was with a 110v hh140 plugged into it's own 110v plug Not on a 30 amp circuit not running any thing else. This is where maybe I can get a little more stability out of a 110v welder. Oh I could care less what the weld looks like.

And since you did make the statement you have been welding for 30 yrs. I will call you on that one. Because you cranked your welder all the way up but never said what welder you are doing this with and how many amps you are welding at. What wire size Because at 180 + amps you are more than likely causing yourself and other a disservice by causing metal to change to a very brittle piece of junk.
And here is where you lost it...
You should get some classes and some more practical knowledge to fully understand what you just said...
Just because you haven't had a failure yet, doesn't it isn't going to happen. My Uncle would load @80 or so 120lb bales of hay in the back of his 84 ranger PU. He never had an accident or broke the frame, but I am pretty sure people would think he was nuts for doing it (seriously, it looked so 3rd world).
You are arguing with guys that do this for a living. Who understand the process, the ins and outs of welding enough to CONSISTENTLY deliver a safe product. Talk to a lawyer about the liability you incur by using a welder that cannot realistically do the job you are trying to do if you are ever involved in an accident.
Click on the link I posted up and see what a craptastic weld looks like, you know the "pretty" one that has no penetration.
You have to use enough amps/power/heat to get the job done, that will vary from axle to axle and tab to tab and piece to piece. You will use different settings for vertical, overhead, etc and even then the pieces being welded will dictate another change in settings.
But even when you finally said that you preheat to get rid of some cold, most people would read your post and think, heck with my 90amp HF welder can weld me a moon buggy... Not safe at all, because they will not understand everything else that is needed for a good and safe weld.
I have been on the trails with guys that "knew best" and swore up and down that their HF 140 amp welder was OK to weld the control arm to the cross member right up to the point it snapped of and jabbed a hole through their floor board, or had their front end decide it wanted to be @ 30 inches further back than when it was welded. That happened on a gravel road @ 5 min after we got off of the highway headed for some rocks. No one is trying to beat you up, we just want to make sure every one is going about it the correct way.
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Unread 09-24-2010, 06:38 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by schitzangiggles View Post
OK I have looked through this website. Most of it has to do to robotic welding from what I have seen. And poor decisions made of manufactures. First thing I would have to say I can out think any robot out there. Second I can correct how I do something myself with outside intervention. Having be shown how to weld by experts in the field of welding. Third I have a standard that is better than excepted by manufactures.

Now to say I not only look at one side of what I have welded but the back side also. Being sorta self taught does have a lot of advantages because you learn through your failures. I know what my limitation are. Also know the limitation of my equipment. Have stated this before.

I'm sorry I should have stated the too much amps in welding changes the strength of the steel. My bad sue me. Brittle or softer is there any great differences both equals the same results FAILURE at some point. There is a fine balance between the two. Just enough to keep from doing either is not that great of a secret.

Has for the challenge I would be more than to oblige to it. But at the present moment my welding equipment is in storage and I'm on the road. I bet that you could do both with using the two different welders or setting your own welder to max and then set to only 140 amp range. Using your normal welding practices and then setting up as I have said using flux core at 135-140 amps setting.Setting for your wire speed to get the sizzle sound. You might be surprised at your results. Like I also state that one might think if doing multi passes when welding with only a 110v welder.
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im just cheap, and cheap makes you creative.
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Unread 09-24-2010, 06:58 AM   #28
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you guys under estimate the power the those little linolns put out... with flux core they get plenty of penetration.

my entire jeep is built useing the lincoln 135 with flux core, and so is my buddys XJ on 38s



set the welder on "D" and wire speed between 2 and 3, make a wide slow pass and you wont have any problems. Still have yet to tear anything off my 8.8 or any weld for that matter in two years of wheelin and over 20,000 daily driven miles.

that being said, i consider myself a very proficient welder considering my younge age (22). Ive worked in fab shops since HS doing everything from structural, Aluminum and sanitary stainless... If your not, then i would tack em on and let a professional weld em on... with the 110 welders it as much indian as it is arrow so just be confident youre a good shot
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Unread 09-24-2010, 09:08 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by dodger889 View Post
Now to say I not only look at one side of what I have welded but the back side also. Being sorta self taught does have a lot of advantages because you learn through your failures. I know what my limitation are. Also know the limitation of my equipment. Have stated this before.

This right here is EXACTLY what we are TRYING to get across to those who just plain don't KNOW..just "looking" at a weld has NOTHING to do with TRUE penetration.Penetration means it is gettin INTO the base metal,not just filled completly through the weldment and filled,Take a look at that link again and study the cross sections of "pretty welds" and see how the penetration is actualy MINIMUM penetration into the sides of the weldment INTO the base metal itself


Has for the challenge I would be more than to oblige to it. But at the present moment my welding equipment is in storage and I'm on the road. I bet that you could do both with using the two different welders or setting your own welder to max and then set to only 140 amp range. Using your normal welding practices and then setting up as I have said using flux core at 135-140 amps setting.Setting for your wire speed to get the sizzle sound. You might be surprised at your results. Like I also state that one might think if doing multi passes when welding with only a 110v welder.
As for the challenge..COOL!

I love a good challenge!..and i am a VERY un-biased opinion type of person.
The process will be a 1/4" filled with no pre heat,beveled and filled 100%,as many passes as you like but no further on the top side than just getting a good fill.

Pictures have to be taken of the prepared weldment before the weld is done,from top,,and from the side where it is tacked together,this way we can see the base metal thickness and gap of the bevel before the process is done.
Then it will be cut,a band saw,,or a cut off wheel on a grinder,i'll use my Milwaukee Portaband,this makes a very clean cut to see the actual "burn in" on penetration on the joint.

This cut will be made cross ways,so we can see how much actual penetration it got...i think YOU will be surprised at the actual results,,if all done "honestly"

My whole point is..i have never givin ANY advice to say it is ok to use a less inferior peice of equipment to do a job that MIGHT get me by on safety related issues.

As an example of exactly what we are takling about...

I am sittin on a beam,ready to weld a moment weld on the iron,this guy over near me is welding deck and 1/4" inch pour stop angle iron and some bridging to the bar joists..he only has 3/32 7018,or some 3/32 7014,and maybe a handfull of 3/32 7011,this machine is set HOT for all the 3/32 so he doesn;t have to keep changing the heat on the machine down below..
My moment weldment is 1" steel,with a 1/8" gap beveled,structural steel(A32 Mild steel).I'm 10 stories up in the air,i feel lazy and don't feel like going down to a machine on the ground or another floor where there is an 8 pack machine setup and run leads to my area,so ...would I use a 3/32 just to "get'rdun" and fill it out?...NO,there IS enough heat in that setup to sufficinetly burn a good 3/32 rod,but not NEAR enough heat to get a good "burn in" ..or penetration on that 1" base..so i will have to go get some 5/32 rod,or a suitcase wirefeed with .056 fluxcore,set the machine up for the rod or wire,and weld away.
I've seen over and over.."pretty welds",,but yet when the QC guy comes up and does an ultra sound test on that weldment,FAILED....why?..that ultra sound will find the difference in the base metal and the weldment itself and was shown clearly he did NOT get enough penetration INTO the base metal..this is the same exact situation when using a 110v machine on 1/4" or more,i wouldn't even use it for 3/16" or more..but thats just me,i've seen the actual results in tests done on welds..Ultra sound..cut and bend..Xray..etc.

Bottom line is,,why use a machine that is at it's limits or past it's capability of what it was designed for on anything..let alone that something relies on peoples lives....Not ME buddy...

It's just plain impossible to get as much heat generated in a 110v machine to even compare to a machine that is double that to get good penetration..a 220v or more....

And that link where you said all those welds are done by robotics?..take another look ..only SOME of them mentioned are done in a manufacturing atmosphere with robotics.

Let me know when we can get this goin..i'll even go borrow my old 110v Lincoln 135 from my buddy ironworker i sold it to and do the same exact process with it compared to my 220v Lincoln 180.
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Unread 09-24-2010, 10:22 AM   #30
cgmrdc
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1988 MJ Comanche 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
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actually (not disagreeing with what you are saying) the Lincoln 135 is rated for 5/16 with .035 flux core... so technically, 1/4 is plenty doable...
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