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Unread 12-27-2011, 07:49 AM   #16
Scooter402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aw12345 View Post
For keeping the nose down with coilovers a center limit strap works wonders.
No reason a wishbone cannot work you can use the wishbone as the lower arm and to upper links if clearance for a upper wishbone is an issue.
A friend of mine uses an upper wishbone in the front on his TJ/LJ 6
Gives good flex and what not, just causes bump steer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aw12345 View Post
A Y link or wishbone would mount 2 points on the frame and the one center point on the axle holding it in place. from there you could still use radius arms to axle to hold it in place.
I understand the premise behind the wishbone setup, but thank you. I am not worried about bump steer, I've got a few ideas up my sleeve for the steering setup once I get the suspension right.

I don't do any climbing/crawling with this Jeep...A limit strap is not needed to keep the front down. I actually do want the front to lift when I stab the throttle off the starting line...helps for weight transfer to the back end to hook harder and take off faster. It actually runs much faster when clearing a pit/track on the back tires like it is in the pic I posted above vs. with the front down because it'll just float across the top...That's actually about 18-24 inches of mud in that picture I have.

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Unread 12-27-2011, 08:59 AM   #17
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A friend successfully ran front and rear y links on his buggy for years without a panhard bar (he has since switched to double triangulated 4 links). I don't see it (a panhard bar) as particularly necessary as long as the y link is strong and well mounted to the frame and front axle. Effectively the peak of the A, at the axle along with the legs of the A at the frame rails provides the lateral location with radius arms locating the front axle front to back. Ford has run radius arm fronts for years with only 2 radius arms and a panhard rod. A good Y link (tying the front axle at the peak of the A and tying to the frame rails at the legs) combined with radius arms would also work fine and like I said it definitely can be made to work off road, without a panhard bar. I don't see the requirement for more than a radius arm with panhard setup, for mud though; and its simpler to make.
Personally I believe you are over-thinking this...

Enjoy!
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Unread 12-27-2011, 09:07 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Joe View Post
Personally I believe you are over-thinking this...

Enjoy!
At this point, I think I may be too... I mean, while the front suspension does need to function, the most important suspension setup is the rear for my application...and looking again at what I want to do with this, the front axle effectively will be in front of the engine. I don't see why I won't have room for a panhard, and I guess I was just wanting to do something "cool and different..."

Although, I do feel the y-link setup you're referring to, once again, is a 3 link wishbone. There's really no way to see what's going to work best until I get out there and start cutting.

I do appreciate everyone's input, and if anyone else still has some insight, lets hear it!
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Unread 12-27-2011, 11:45 PM   #19
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the true name of the "y-link" you are talking about is Radius arm. and yes it requires a panhard.

with only the lowers connecting the frame to the axle, there is nothing to resist lateral movement of the axle.

triangulating the suspension works by creating a triangle using the upper or lower (or both) links between the axle and the frame. with a triangulated link suspension the axle cannot move laterally because the links cannot change length, therefore the angle of the triangle cannot change which means the axle cannot move anywhere.

now if you do not have enough triangulation, IE your suspension is more of a trapezoid then the axle will wander all over the place.

so without triangulation a panhard is used to locate the axle laterally and control its movement. the panhard and drag link must be the same length and parallel or else they will not move in the same radius and you will end up with bumpsteer.

its simple geometry really.
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Unread 12-28-2011, 10:11 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Climbit View Post
the true name of the "y-link" you are talking about is Radius arm. and yes it requires a panhard.

with only the lowers connecting the frame to the axle, there is nothing to resist lateral movement of the axle.

triangulating the suspension works by creating a triangle using the upper or lower (or both) links between the axle and the frame. with a triangulated link suspension the axle cannot move laterally because the links cannot change length, therefore the angle of the triangle cannot change which means the axle cannot move anywhere.

now if you do not have enough triangulation, IE your suspension is more of a trapezoid then the axle will wander all over the place.

so without triangulation a panhard is used to locate the axle laterally and control its movement. the panhard and drag link must be the same length and parallel or else they will not move in the same radius and you will end up with bumpsteer.

its simple geometry really.
I appreciate the clarification on the triangulation, but that was information I was already aware of. The "radius arm-style" y-link I'm talking about is something like this:



with maybe even the short link that comes off of the lower to be permanently fixed to the lower link, rather than having a joint. That short link obviously cannot change length..so with that, although small, amount of triangulation, how would the axle still move laterally? I understand how it does with the traditional radius arm style, that's quite obvious...but with something like this?

I don't mean to keep beating a dead horse here...but I still don't see how this would need a panhard. At any rate, I would probably still use one to keep stress off of the joints/mounts at the frame end. I was thinking about this last night at work. My front axle wouldn't have that much side load on it being a mud racer...that is, unless I rolled it. At that point, I don't think my front suspension would be of major concern.
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Unread 12-28-2011, 12:11 PM   #21
DeconsTructionJ
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the top bars of the radius arms stop the axle from pivoting, to keep your pinion from moving up or down they do not provide adequate triangulation to keep the axle from moving side to side. They will somewhat but not near enough to keep your tires from hitting the the insides of the fenders and making the jeep handle like an absolute toilet.
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Unread 12-28-2011, 01:13 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooter402 View Post
I don't mean to keep beating a dead horse here...but I still don't see how this would need a panhard. At any rate, I would probably still use one to keep stress off of the joints/mounts at the frame end.
Build the suspension then disconnect the panhard and you will see that it is needed. Running it on the rocks, mud or street will make no difference. Then check back into this thread and tell us how we were right
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Unread 12-28-2011, 09:52 PM   #23
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Quote:
Build the suspension then disconnect the panhard and you will see that it is needed. Running it on the rocks, mud or street will make no difference. Then check back into this thread and tell us how we were right


You need a tracbar(panhard) to keep your axle centered under the jeep. That picture above is probably of a rusty's radius arm setup which if you looked at the whole package you'd notice they include a tracbar.
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Unread 12-28-2011, 11:53 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooter402 View Post
I appreciate the clarification on the triangulation, but that was information I was already aware of. The "radius arm-style" y-link I'm talking about is something like this:



with maybe even the short link that comes off of the lower to be permanently fixed to the lower link, rather than having a joint. That short link obviously cannot change length..so with that, although small, amount of triangulation, how would the axle still move laterally? I understand how it does with the traditional radius arm style, that's quite obvious...but with something like this?

I don't mean to keep beating a dead horse here...but I still don't see how this would need a panhard. At any rate, I would probably still use one to keep stress off of the joints/mounts at the frame end. I was thinking about this last night at work. My front axle wouldn't have that much side load on it being a mud racer...that is, unless I rolled it. At that point, I don't think my front suspension would be of major concern.

the triangulation is needed between the frame and the axle. not the links and the axle. the links are the lines of the triangle. there is 0 triangulation between the frame and the axle in that joint.
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Unread 12-29-2011, 10:29 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by jkl View Post
Build the suspension then disconnect the panhard and you will see that it is needed. Running it on the rocks, mud or street will make no difference. Then check back into this thread and tell us how we were right
You got it. I have absolutely no problem admitting when I am wrong. I simply had a thought about this suspension, figured I would ask someone who may know better, and threw a question out there. It may not be anytime soon, but I will certainly come back to this thread and post up my results, right or wrong. I appreciate your help and that of most the others that replied.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssyj94 View Post


You need a tracbar(panhard) to keep your axle centered under the jeep. That picture above is probably of a rusty's radius arm setup which if you looked at the whole package you'd notice they include a tracbar.

Last edited by Joe Dillard; 01-01-2012 at 11:45 PM.. Reason: Clean-up a little.
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Unread 12-29-2011, 11:32 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Scooter402 View Post
You got it. I have absolutely no problem admitting when I am wrong. I simply had a thought about this suspension, figured I would ask someone who may know better, and threw a question out there. It may not be anytime soon, but I will certainly come back to this thread and post up my results, right or wrong. I appreciate your help and that of most the others that replied.
this is advanced fab <snip>

Last edited by Joe Dillard; 01-01-2012 at 11:48 PM.. Reason: clean-up
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Unread 12-29-2011, 03:39 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Climbit View Post
the triangulation is needed between the frame and the axle. not the links and the axle. the links are the lines of the triangle. there is 0 triangulation between the frame and the axle in that joint.
Triangulation of just the links works fine. The problem here is the amount of triangulation vs. the amount of slop in the system. In the example pictured above with the orange links, there's very little triangulation. Judging by what I can see in the picture, there are rubber or poly bushings at at least 2 mount positions, possibly all 6. Bushings add slop unless the movement is constrained somehow. In this particular example, the slop of the bushings plus the limited triangulation will allow the axle to move laterally by quite a bit. Since it is triangulated, the axle will eventually stop, but it'll definitely have a few inches of lateral movement. I can't imagine that'd be good for any usage, especially mud racing at high speeds.

One way to improve the location of the axle would be to eliminate all the bushings for heims. Even then, lack of triangulation makes any slack whatsoever translate into a lot of axle movement, so even the inherent slop of the bolt riding in the heim might be enough to let the axle swing side to side a bit.

In a nutshell: more triangulation or add a trackbar.
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Unread 12-29-2011, 03:45 PM   #28
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this is why i thought this "hardcore" section was a bad idea...

' Swearing, flaming, posting demeaning comments to pound your own chest, slamming, bickering, acting like a child with an attitude and post padding will not be tolerated. ' -joe dillard

i think everyone needs to review the rules.

to comply with the rules;
op you are asking about info on building a custom coil suspension for your jeep that i feel does qualify for the "advanced tech" section. if you knew exactly what you wanted or had all the answers you wouldnt need to ask those who have done what you are seeking. make sure that those you listen to have in fact build one-off link and coil suspensions rather then simply bolted on a tj kit. i have a feeling that this is not the case. look into polyperformance 3 link brackets. its a nice place to start. its not a kit but they will get you started in the right direction. link length, location and configuration all still need to be worked out per vehicle and axle assembly as well as link attachment style. in your application, with little need of massive articulation the panhard is a very viable option and shouldnt be shunned too quickly. i think the only thing that a panhard could be a detriment is mub build-up. a triangulated four link would avoid this a bit, however, they are quite tricky to accomplish on the front end without major reworking of major components. this is multiplied for a daily driver.

personally i think those who have not actually built a link and coil setup from scratch should sit this one out.
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Unread 12-29-2011, 03:54 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cresso View Post
Triangulation of just the links works fine. The problem here is the amount of triangulation vs. the amount of slop in the system. In the example pictured above with the orange links, there's very little triangulation. Judging by what I can see in the picture, there are rubber or poly bushings at at least 2 mount positions, possibly all 6. Bushings add slop unless the movement is constrained somehow. In this particular example, the slop of the bushings plus the limited triangulation will allow the axle to move laterally by quite a bit. Since it is triangulated, the axle will eventually stop, but it'll definitely have a few inches of lateral movement. I can't imagine that'd be good for any usage, especially mud racing at high speeds.

One way to improve the location of the axle would be to eliminate all the bushings for heims. Even then, lack of triangulation makes any slack whatsoever translate into a lot of axle movement, so even the inherent slop of the bolt riding in the heim might be enough to let the axle swing side to side a bit.

In a nutshell: more triangulation or add a trackbar.
the arms pictured are radius arms. like climbit stated, there is NO triagulation incorporated. they arent designed for it or to need it. the little "triangle" you see has nothing to do with centering the axle assembly. makes no difference what method of link attachment you use, without a panhard the axle assembly will move laterally a lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cresso View Post
One way to improve the location of the axle would be to eliminate all the bushings for heims... even the inherent slop of the bolt riding in the heim might be enough to let the axle swing side to side a bit.
unless i have misunderstood your point, this statement leads me to believe you have never incorporated rod ends into a one-off suspension. the slop in the bolt wouldnt allow lateral movement the whole multi-directional function of the rod end itself would. rod ends would allow even more lateral movement then a standard bushing would allow. once again these are radius arms and are specifically designed to be used with a panhard.
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Unread 12-29-2011, 04:41 PM   #30
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A word of advice, when building/buying a radius arm setup, especially for a "mud racer" Choose hard joints like, heims, or johnny joints. If rubber or poly is used youll get some nasty front axle wrap.

My old radius arms had some wheel hop issues, and it sucked. I wouldnt want that on a mud racer.
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