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Unread 12-16-2011, 08:54 PM   #16
teknics
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It all depends on when youre setting your methanol to go. Cars-wise i'm into rx7s, the detonation-while-boosting-kings. Methanol injection got popular and its huge on the turbo rotaries now.

Are you planning on running an actual 50/50 of water/methanol or are you using washer fluid (so you cant be 100% sure on mix %s, and before anyone asks yes washer fluid actually does work its just that most contain unknown %s, winter mixes tend to have less water obviously)

Im somewhat familiar with the snowperformance kit, but all i've run is coolingmist setups personally so I'm not sure on snow's controllers and tuning abilities.

I'm also new to jeep piggybacks etc so if i ask what seems basic/stupid questions its just because of lack of specific knowledge for your setup.

If youre tuning on a dyno obviously you're gonna want a datalogging setup. Methanol can greatly reduce the amount of fuel needed, if you tune on pump gas, then throw on a meth kit you'll run rich when it kicks on. It also obviously cools IATs.

Without an intercooler i'm guessing you'll have significant "on-time" for your meth kit to control IATs. If snow's meth controller is capable of it, you should be able to tune your meth injectors almost the same as fuel injectors. Meth will also lower your EGTs nicely.

edit: Just noticed you said you'll be running at 5psi and above. What i would do is drive around and check out your IATs and also I don't if your computer or other equipment can, but check where/when your fuel injectors are highest in on-time or where youre reaching high into the % of output of the injector (dunno if this would be a problem on your setup, but i've come close to maxing out 1680cc injectors). When youre IATs are hot and/or your injectors are staying open for a long time that's where you'll want to focus your meth injection with "blending" before that actual point.

You can run 100% methanol as well, easiest place is to find a race shop that sells sunoco race fuels. There's some downsides (more corrosive to aluminum than a mix, you won't want it sitting inside your truck in case of fire, etc) but there's a major upside of max performance of the system and making tuning it easier as you will always have the same ratio of methanol and not be guessing (they also sell a 55 gallon from sunoco so you dont have to travel to get more).

Overall having a nice meth injection kit and some dyno tuning time can help save your motor, help make bigger HP, and save you some gas (altho thats balanced by the cost of meth)

As for intercoolers it really depends on your IATs, as for lag it's all about limiting turns in the pipes and getting a well designed IC core and properly flowing end tanks on it. I have an FMIC on both my rx7s, i get a total of 1psi pressure loss, you can make up for it by turning your boost up, the turbo will work harder but your engine winds up seeing the same boost but colder. Top mount probably wouldnt be a bad idea, youre working with 7-8lbs with a to4e. I was running that same turbo on my rx7 (at 12-15lbs) at first through the stock intercooler just fine with great IATs, so you wouldn't need some crazy huge 3 row FMIC. Look up Mazda RX7 Turbo2s (1987-1991) and try to find a stock IC and you'll see what kind of sized IC you could probably get away with.

hope i helped somehow lol, any questions feel free to ask, anyone want to make corrections feel free i sort of started rambling so im sure i messed up somewhere.

Also i have a feeling i wrote all this out about tunable meth injection and you might be running just the "boost/vac switch" kit. in which case forget what i wrote and just set it to a psi and watch your iat, egt and afr.

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Unread 12-16-2011, 09:36 PM   #17
funshootin1
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Goin to run 50-50 mix. But I'm told most windshield washer fluids are 70-30 and can be spiked up to 50% via pouring in a couple bottles of heet brand gas line antifreeze per gallon.
Splitsecond is the fuel - timing unit I'm using. Model ftc-019 b. Basically a laptop tuneable setup with tables for timing and fuel.
I'm using a innovate wideband and have pretty much street tuned it...af ratios are pretty good with a little rich- then lean stumble right as I transition to positive pressure ..like low - mid 14s afr for a minuscule moment under certain loads / throttle position ...tiniest hiccup but its there, so a proper dyno session is in order.
In low range it never comes up, always consistant afr's in the mid to high 13s. Until the water Meth goes in I'm not hitting the dyno cause a retune would cost me 125$ an hour so I'm tuning it once, creating several maps so I have options and I can always make changes or go back to my baseline map..
Running 36# Injectors using stock pump ect. EBay external waste gate and some no name bov. The whole deal was a budget type build using leftover stuff from buddies incomplete projects. Ran the heck out of it this summer and am very happy overall but boy do you notice the power difference once the weather got cooler.
Used to run Turbo mopars - glhs - glh omnis - Daytonas and had lots of fun..ran a ghetto fabulous homemade water mist setup on one of the non intercooled glh omnis at 14-# of boost, noticeable seat o pants power gain and I'm sure those valves and piston tops were nicely steam cleaned LOL
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Unread 12-16-2011, 09:48 PM   #18
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I've got 60- 100- 175- 225 ml.per min nozzles for the snow kit. It comes with a basic adjustable pressure switch to activate pump .
Goin to start small and work up from there I guess.
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Unread 12-16-2011, 10:08 PM   #19
teknics
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funshootin1 View Post
Goin to run 50-50 mix. But I'm told most windshield washer fluids are 70-30 and can be spiked up to 50% via pouring in a couple bottles of heet brand gas line antifreeze per gallon.
a 50/50 mix is good as the extra water acts as an anti-detonation component.

I know it'll prob cost a fair deal but it wouldnt hurt to buy a bulk of washer fluid concentrate and send some out to be tested, probably 3 samples from 3 seperate containers unless its a drum. Of course going that far is normally for when youre pushing the limits.

Quote:
Splitsecond is the fuel - timing unit I'm using. Model ftc-019 b. Basically a laptop tuneable setup with tables for timing and fuel.
No experience with it, im sure its fairly similar to most out there.

Quote:
I'm using a innovate wideband and have pretty much street tuned it...af ratios are pretty good with a little rich- then lean stumble right as I transition to positive pressure ..like low - mid 14s afr for a minuscule moment under certain loads / throttle position ...tiniest hiccup but its there, so a proper dyno session is in order.
[quote]
With our cars we tune for mid 11s afr under boost, remember we're detonation-kings lol, some guys play around with getting to 13-14's under boost but they live dangerous. You'll be fine with your setup staying close to stoich. Innovate LM1 im guessing? Thats my preferred setup, love it. Your hiccup probably is just a steep change in fuel at 0psi. All you need to do is "blend" the fuel a bit. What you're feeling is the sudden change in injector on-time, your injector will lag a bit from sudden changes. So you smooth it, adding a little incrementally over the few cells before 0psi. This will make you run a bit rich while still in vacuum but it's a matter of efficiency vs comfort. I'm not sure of the resolution of your fuel maps and the RPM increments, the more you have the smoother you can make it.

It will definitely be easier to tune it on the dyno, but generally after a dyno tune you'll need to still adjust it for street driving

Quote:
In low range it never comes up, always consistant afr's in the mid to high 13s. Until the water Meth goes in I'm not hitting the dyno cause a retune would cost me 125$ an hour so I'm tuning it once, creating several maps so I have options and I can always make changes or go back to my baseline map..
Running 36# Injectors using stock pump ect. EBay external waste gate and some no name bov. The whole deal was a budget type build using leftover stuff from buddies incomplete projects. Ran the heck out of it this summer and am very happy overall but boy do you notice the power difference once the weather got cooler.
Certain ebay parts can be great if you take your time to go over it and not just trust it out of the box. People build 400-500hp rx7 with ebay turbos, w/g everything. What is the type of wastegate? HKS replica? We have problem with the pistons siezing in the cylinder, good idea to check it once in a while for smooth opening/closing when cold and hot. If it does sieze it can be repaired easily so its not much of a big deal as long as you dont overboost when it happens. As for ebay BOVs, i hate when people buy fancy ones for $400, its a piston on a plunger (or it should be, diaphragm ones fail often and can make a vac leak) I prefer the turboxs RFL or it's ebay knockoff. simple design and does its job nicely.

Quote:
Used to run Turbo mopars - glhs - glh omnis - Daytonas and had lots of fun..ran a ghetto fabulous homemade water mist setup on one of the non intercooled glh omnis at 14-# of boost, noticeable seat o pants power gain and I'm sure those valves and piston tops were nicely steam cleaned LOL
When i started using Methanol it was amazing how i could go comfortably past the gas limits. Lots of turbo guys are doing great with E85 as well. Cant beat that turbo feeling. I currently have an 89 rx7 turbo2 with a T78 turbo (1.15 exhaust a/r, .96 intake...IIRC) and puts around 600hp to the rear wheels. It's a never-ending project though, disassembled more often than assembled. Had a 94 rx7 with a custom to4z pushing 25psi and 520hp on "race tune" and 20psi detuned DD tune.

I'm also fairly good at street and dyno tuning, tune all my own cars and friends cars. RX7s require a lot more trickery in tuning. We have primary/secondary injectors and have to tune the "switch over" and to run high boost we wind up running 850cc primary injectors making idle tuning and low rpm tuning a pain.
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Unread 12-16-2011, 10:46 PM   #20
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I know you put out the FMIC, for the reasons of lag and also mud, so what about this?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/intercooler-...item45ff5614db

Get that, louver the hood, and put a set of fans or even some ducting to it, and you will never worry about running out of W/M mix. Never understood the Nitrous or water meth thing in a DD - they are consumables, and you will run out when you don't expect it unless you are always refilling. As an FYI, the top of a late 80's F150 air cleaner housing fits these top mounts like they were made to. Some dryer ducting to the front, and you will have plenty of air. This is what I had in my Ranger before I got my FMIC.

As for your mud issues, what makes the difference if mud plugs up the FMIC or the radiator? I would rather have the FMIC plugged, since if there is a gap between the rad and the FMIC you will still get some cooling. Otherwise, just put some window screen behind the grill to catch the mud.

As for lag, having a proper sized turbo for minimal lag normally you would not rally feel the difference with or w/o the FMIC. I went from a TMIC like in the ebay listing above to a Volvo FMIC from a 740 and never noticed the difference. I would think that unless you are going for E.T and such, you would never notice it. Even the drag guys are taking the TMIC from their cars and mounting the FMIC for the benefits. Try a T3/T4 hybrid, get some faster spool, and a FMIC.
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Unread 12-19-2011, 12:43 AM   #21
LilSteve97TJ
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Idk if you've ever checked out 4bangerjp but they have a 30 page thread about turboing. I've wanted to turbo my 2.5l tj for the longest time so I'm definitely keeping an eye on your build/progress.

Chris Durhams blue jeep that runs a turbo 2.4l, kinda a mix with the pt cruiser motor and the tj, runs a air to water inter cooler very successfully. Being as on the trail you won't get enough air for the air to air to work well the air to water is what I'd always had planned on.
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Unread 12-19-2011, 12:17 PM   #22
funshootin1
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Yeah man, 4bangerjp has a ton of resources for Turbocharging Jeeps.
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Unread 01-02-2012, 02:51 AM   #23
242much
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MONSooNmonkey View Post
^ That lagg would be HORRIBLE.
FMIC are ok at higher boost levels and RPM's.

HE could do a top mount intercooler though he might have to turn his intake 180 degrees.
I imagine that a top mount intercooler would be the most practical with a mudding vehicle like a jeep.
i have to disagree with the monkey. a laminova air/water intercooler would allow you a lot of flexibility in packaging your charge piping. if you're dead set on running water/meth, remember that the methanol DOES burn, and will make your slightly rich condition a bit more rich. without getting TOO in depth with the specific tune of your vehicle, you can do a couple different things when running water and methanol.


more timing, same boost

pros: more power everywhere, cleaner burn, lower exhaust temps

cons: slightly more lag due to an exhaust mixture that's more completely burned. and if your water/meth system takes a ****, you're more likely to have issues with knock due to advanced timing.

same timing, more boost

pros: more boost, duh. more power after the turbo spools. depending on the turbo, this may allow you to run in a more efficient area of the compressor map, giving more hp per psi.

cons: higher exhaust temps because your wg is staying closed, more stress on the motor because you're running more pressure. if your water/meth system takes a ****, you're still pretty boned.


what i would recommend is based on your component selection. if you have a dual stage boost controller, there are water methanol controllers that will activate your second stage when the water/methanol is active. they also have flow meters that verify your water/meth mix is actually flowing, as well as being able to detect a clogged nozzle and if the pump dies. benefit is, if there's a problem with your meth injection in the middle of a WOT pull, it'll cut off the extra boost, and you'll just run a little rich until you fill up the meth tank again. if you're interested, i've got lots of spare time and would be glad to answer any questions about component selection you might have. pm me tho, i'm not on jf as much as i used to be.
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Unread 01-02-2012, 05:59 AM   #24
funshootin1
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Will do 242, I'm currently broken the hasty rear Axel swap I did 2 summers ago finally ate it ...pinion bearing went poof ...Axel filled with chocolate milkshake LOL ...ehh, it was a spare Cherokee 8.25 I had laying around and had no business under a tj anyway
The 8.8 is under the Jeep. Just odds n ends to finish it but time has been hard to come by...
Once fully roadworthy it's goin to a local shop that's highly recommended ( Injection connection in horsham pa) for a long series of dyno tuning sessions to develop a couple different tunes I can load or change to .. . When I get close to that point I'll be p.m. ing you for sure. .

I'd like to thank everyone for thier help thus far. This silly project wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for folks like yourselves and all the other sites sharing thier ideas ..
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Unread 01-04-2012, 01:55 AM   #25
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i'll be here man. o yea, pix or it didn't happen
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good grief, just buy the Rubicon.
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