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Unread 07-23-2013, 09:23 AM   #1
I6CJ7
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water/methanol injection on a carb

Anyone know any info on running water/methanol injection in naturally aspirated engine with a carb?
Im looking for a setup

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Unread 07-24-2013, 08:52 AM   #2
jay-h
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Water injection was historically used to suppress preignition on aircraft during takeoff. Not sure why it would be desirable on a low speed low compression Crawler.
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Unread 07-24-2013, 10:29 AM   #3
I6CJ7
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Going down the highway I'm turning some pretty good Rpms, it effectively cools off the air intake charge creating denser air and as the water mist turns to vapor its sucks up alot heat with it. I believe the water/meth mix dramatically increases that octane level as well. So it raises horsepower, which would be nice when im towing with my jeep, or going up steep grades in West Virginia. And the water/methanol injection cleans all the carbon deposits off the inside ofnthe engine. So I've read... Seems like there is really no downside to trying it, just want to know if anyone has experience with this. And maybe i can hookup it up to vacuum, so at idle there's little to no spray, but it comes on progressively as speed goes up.
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Unread 07-27-2013, 08:31 PM   #4
thantos858
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I6CJ7 View Post
Going down the highway I'm turning some pretty good Rpms, it effectively cools off the air intake charge creating denser air and as the water mist turns to vapor its sucks up alot heat with it. I believe the water/meth mix dramatically increases that octane level as well. So it raises horsepower, which would be nice when im towing with my jeep, or going up steep grades in West Virginia. And the water/methanol injection cleans all the carbon deposits off the inside ofnthe engine. So I've read... Seems like there is really no downside to trying it, just want to know if anyone has experience with this. And maybe i can hookup it up to vacuum, so at idle there's little to no spray, but it comes on progressively as speed goes up.
Octane doesn't increase horsepower at all.
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Unread 07-28-2013, 02:30 AM   #5
I6CJ7
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What i meant was by raising the octane, more timing can be added, thus, slightly more power. The most horsepower would be seen from the water/meth absorbing the heat from the intake and air creating a denser mixture.
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Unread 07-28-2013, 06:15 AM   #6
jay-h
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I6CJ7 View Post
What i meant was by raising the octane, more timing can be added, thus, slightly more power. The most horsepower would be seen from the water/meth absorbing the heat from the intake and air creating a denser mixture.
In theory this is doable. In the early days of very inconsistent fuels, aircraft would use water injection to stabilize combustion temperatures at the extreme loads of takeoff.

Similarly this has occasionally been done in autos, GM had a version in the early 60s. The problem was, to take advantage of the water injection the engine was tuned for it (high compression, spark, cam etc), but since users would forget to keep their fluids up, when those engines ran dry, they cooked. Adding water without recalibrating the engine accomplished nothing.

Over the years cheap aftermarket outfits like JC Whitney marketed aftermarket kits, but they were probably close to useless.

Because of the octane consistency of modern fuels, this is not used any more (I don't think piston aircraft use it either now)

You would be better advancing your spark and upping your compression ration and feed it premium fuel.
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Unread 08-01-2013, 09:49 AM   #7
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A lot of the diesel guys are using it, so are drag racers, turbos inner coolers, outer coolers, blow through carbs.
There are new and better systems out there.
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Unread 08-01-2013, 05:41 PM   #8
I6CJ7
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Exactly, which is why im interested in it. Especially since my CJ feels like it has 20 more hp when its cold.. Before the water heated intake warms up, and the weber starts sucking hot air off the headers..
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Unread 08-04-2013, 05:55 AM   #9
hotrod351
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bought a kit for my high compression 351 cleveland about 30 + years ago. it let me set it to the rpm and amount it would spray. im sure they still sell them. originally a guy used a windshield washer pump with a restrictor in hot rod mag. i remember reading that they keep your cylinders and pistons clean as new. check with jegs or summitt racing.
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Unread 08-04-2013, 11:18 AM   #10
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There is plenty of nice meth injection kits out there like from Snow performance, devils own, AEM etc. They can work from vacuum like you said and are mostly popular in the forced induction world now a days because it does dramatically reduce air intake temps. I think you can achieve what your looking for with your cooler intake, more timing, few more HP and maybe even better gas mileage. Just make sure you do the right water/meth ratio and proper nozzle sizes. I think Peak windshield washer fluid is a mix is 35% meth / 65% water and cheap too, just an FYI, make sure it doesn't have propylene glycol in it though.
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Unread 08-04-2013, 11:29 PM   #11
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Sounds good, now i just need to find a reasonably priced kit to try out!
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Unread 08-04-2013, 11:39 PM   #12
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Then why not rearrange your air inlet stream to draw from outside of the vehicle, instead of underhood? Even drawing the air from the cowl vent box in front of the windscreen can be beneficial - easier than water/MeOH injection, every bit as effective, and no additional system or maintenance required.

It is correct that water/MeOH was used in piston-driven aircraft, it was a way to improve high-altitude performance (with the paucity of air at altitude, you had to "lean out" the mix to compensate. This pushed it close to the LBL - Lean Burn Limit - and resulted in damage due to detonation. By using the water/MeOH fog, the temperature of the chamber was reduced, which allowed the lean mix to be burned.

Using water/MeOH can also reduce the ONR (Octane Number Requirement) of a given engine, as the octane rating is the resistance to ignition. This is why higher-compression engines require higher octane fuel, and why it's effectively useless to run a higher AKI (Anti-Knock Index, the average of the "Motor" and "Research" octane numbers) than required. Octane has nothing to do with the energy content of the fuel.

As far as using it on a bone-stock low-compression engine? No need. You'll be much happier with the results if you draw fresh air into the intake - allowing you to burn more fuel - than with cooling the air charge once it's in the intake. A carburettor won't recognise that the intake charge is cooler - and it won't adapt accordingly. Water/MeOH may yield a slight increase in power on a fuel injected engine, because the ECM monitors intake charge density and adjusts accordingly. However, this is still of limited benefit on a stock, low-compression engine.

Draw in fresh air, you'll be better off.
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Unread 08-05-2013, 08:40 AM   #13
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I agree fresh air would help alot, I'm working on that now. And I'm not saying water/meth is going to be like nitrous..
But it allows you to lean the mixture, run more timing, steam clean the engine. And run lower octane. And the Carb may not compensate on its own, But i can, and would tune it accordingly. Which leaning it out would probably see a small mileage improvement as well. And its just neat to be different, what better engine to work on and try something out than the ole 258? They're near impossible to kill, and even if you did, at least you know what not to do on your expensive V8 or whatever down the road.

I have my whole air/ducting system out right now for line-x and it's amazing the amount of air forced down into the cowl vent.. Like a hurricane! Just driving down the road.
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Unread 08-10-2013, 08:13 PM   #14
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If you want to run cooler air get a snorkel, an then wrap the intake in reflective heat tape inside the hood. You would also reap the benefits of "ram-air" and cleaner, less dust filled air. Coupled with a high-flow air filter like K&N, you'd be getting those at speed increases you are hoping for. Keep in mind that carbs are prone to icing when the temps drop and condensation build-up inside your intake manifold. I agree with the post above. Mill your head a few thousandths, raise your compression, call it a day.
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Unread 08-12-2013, 09:45 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I6CJ7 View Post
Exactly, which is why im interested in it. Especially since my CJ feels like it has 20 more hp when its cold.. Before the water heated intake warms up, and the weber starts sucking hot air off the headers..
Wouldnt a big chunk of the feel be attributed to the choke still being active and running a richer mix then anything else? Same reason lots of old schoolers swap their stock thermostat with a low temp.
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