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Unread 03-19-2012, 11:24 PM   #31
wushaw
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Kinda like this. 2.5" JJ, 3/4 - 9/16 RuffStuff rod end (jamb nut is 28mm wrench) 1.5"X.250X1" I/D DOM tube.





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Unread 03-20-2012, 01:31 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by addicted2dunes View Post
For your trac bar I recommend bushing mount at the frame and high misalignment spacers on a heim at the axle end. I also suggest bushing mounts on your links at the axle side and Johnny Joints at the frame side.
why do you suggest bushings?

I would not put bushings anywhere in a offroad suspension ever.
bushings are not designed to handle the kind of loads and forces offroad suspensions put on them.

Rod ends and Johnny Joints only. they are designed to travel like an offroad suspension.
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Unread 03-20-2012, 07:52 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Climbit View Post
why do you suggest bushings?

I would not put bushings anywhere in a offroad suspension ever.
bushings are not designed to handle the kind of loads and forces offroad suspensions put on them.

Rod ends and Johnny Joints only. they are designed to travel like an offroad suspension.
Are you kidding me?

Look here:

http://www.polyperformance.com/shop/...t-p-16605.html

http://www.ballisticfabrication.com/...63_p_1646.html

http://www.bluetorchfab.com/Product/...leeve-Kit.aspx

And along with anyone else that fabricates offroad parts. Bushings allow a little flex, unlike any rod end or Johnny Joint. If you rod end everything then you'll have one clanky, loud, uncomfortable riding vehicle when on and off road. You don't want the road noise to transfer from your axle through the frame, stop it with a bushing.

Also, why would you waste the money on the axle side of a radius arm with rod ends? There's no flex there, you're basically solid mounted to the axle. Use bushings.
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Unread 03-20-2012, 08:09 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Climbit View Post
why do you suggest bushings?

I would not put bushings anywhere in a offroad suspension ever.
bushings are not designed to handle the kind of loads and forces offroad suspensions put on them.

Rod ends and Johnny Joints only. they are designed to travel like an offroad suspension.
What you're saying is not true without any parameters. Can you put a Johnny Joint or Rod End everywhere? Nope, not in both ends of an arm if the arm has a bend in it like a Radius Arm or this OP's track bar. Bent arms will fall over if not supported by either a rubber or poly bushing.

There is nothing wrong with a rubber bushing if they are not asked to operate outside of their Range of Motion. If the rubber bushing is kept within its ROM they are arguably better than a ball and socket joint. They control NVH much better, don't wear (much), don't generate heat (much), don't need lubrication or maintenance and they last a very long time. Exceed their ROM and they will not last the day.

The axle-end bushings in a Radius Arm setup only need to be able to rotate a couple of degrees, well within the ROM for a rubber bushing.
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Unread 03-20-2012, 09:41 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by addicted2dunes View Post
Are you kidding me?

Look here:

http://www.polyperformance.com/shop/...t-p-16605.html

http://www.ballisticfabrication.com/...63_p_1646.html

http://www.bluetorchfab.com/Product/...leeve-Kit.aspx

And along with anyone else that fabricates offroad parts. Bushings allow a little flex, unlike any rod end or Johnny Joint. If you rod end everything then you'll have one clanky, loud, uncomfortable riding vehicle when on and off road. You don't want the road noise to transfer from your axle through the frame, stop it with a bushing.

Also, why would you waste the money on the axle side of a radius arm with rod ends? There's no flex there, you're basically solid mounted to the axle. Use bushings.
Put down the crack pipe Paco. You're throwing out blanket statements like no tomorrow. I run Currie JJ's on every end of my suspension--axle and frame + frame end of the track bar for a total of 17. Good luck finding a better driving, better-riding TJ that can tackle some gnarly stuff. And no, I don't run a radius arm front suspension, nor would I be interested in it. But I do agree with you--the axle end of a RA setup can work fine with a bushing. I don't like bushings so naturally, I don't like RA's.
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Unread 03-20-2012, 10:02 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by addicted2dunes View Post
Are you kidding me?
no.
Quote:
http://www.polyperformance.com/shop/...t-p-16605.html

http://www.ballisticfabrication.com/...63_p_1646.html

http://www.bluetorchfab.com/Product/...leeve-Kit.aspx
And along with anyone else that fabricates offroad parts. Bushings allow a little flex, unlike any rod end or Johnny Joint. If you rod end everything then you'll have one clanky, loud, uncomfortable riding vehicle when on and off road. You don't want the road noise to transfer from your axle through the frame, stop it with a bushing.
1. Johnny joints do not transfer much NVH at all, anyone who thinks so has never used a johnny joint. those poly bushings you posted will transfer more NVH to the vehicle than a johnny joint.

2. you posted links to Poly bushings, I would only use those on the uppers in a radius arm, since they do not need to travel much. never on the lowers or the panhard.

Quote:
Also, why would you waste the money on the axle side of a radius arm with rod ends? There's no flex there, you're basically solid mounted to the axle. Use bushings.
there is plenty of "flex" required in the axle side lower mounts, the uppers could be bushings, but not the lowers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ftgiles View Post
What you're saying is not true without any parameters. Can you put a Johnny Joint or Rod End everywhere? Nope, not in both ends of an arm if the arm has a bend in it like a Radius Arm or this OP's track bar. Bent arms will fall over if not supported by either a rubber or poly bushing.
the OP's current arms are bent with a cartridge joint at one end and a rod end at the other. the triangulation of the uppers keep them from falling over, also, running a poly bushing on the upper helps that as well.

Quote:
There is nothing wrong with a rubber bushing if they are not asked to operate outside of their Range of Motion. If the rubber bushing is kept within its ROM they are arguably better than a ball and socket joint. They control NVH much better, don't wear (much), don't generate heat (much), don't need lubrication or maintenance and they last a very long time. Exceed their ROM and they will not last the day.
rubber bushings wear faster than Johnny joints, even inside their ROM, they don't control NVH hardly any better

Quote:
The axle-end bushings in a Radius Arm setup only need to be able to rotate a couple of degrees, well within the ROM for a rubber bushing.
the axle end of the lowers do.


also, the post I responded to was referring to the PANHARD using a bushing, which will certainly see more travel and require more flex than any bushing can handle.
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Unread 03-20-2012, 10:23 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Climbit View Post

the axle end of the lowers do.
If you understand why the caster changes with Radius Arms you would also understand why the axle-end bushings don't need to tolerate much movement.
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Unread 03-20-2012, 10:32 AM   #38
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If you understand why the caster changes with Radius Arms you would also understand why the axle-end bushings don't need to tolerate much movement.


I understand that they do not rotate much, althought the do rotate some, however they also need to articulate, something that will wear out rubber bushings and that poly bushings don't allow much of.
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Unread 03-20-2012, 10:43 AM   #39
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I understand that they do not rotate much, althought the do rotate some, however they also need to articulate, something that will wear out rubber bushings and that poly bushings don't allow much of.
The articulation is allowed for by the frame-end joint. The axle-end just follows along because the whole arm rotates axially at the frame. The frame-end MUST have a spherical joint, for sure, if an RA suspension is to work at all.
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Unread 03-20-2012, 10:50 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by ftgiles View Post
The articulation is allowed for by the frame-end joint. The axle-end just follows along because the whole arm rotates axially at the frame. The frame-end MUST have a spherical joint, for sure, if an RA suspension is to work at all.
there is still going to be some travel at the axle end. that travel over time will wear out a bushing much much faster than a johnny joint.

and in any suspension system other than a radius arm, all the links need to be able to articulate well, so I stand by my original statement that I wouldn't use bushings in an offroad suspension. ESPECIALLY in a panhard.
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Unread 03-20-2012, 11:02 AM   #41
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What you're saying is not true without any parameters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Climbit View Post
other than a radius arm
or on both ends of a bent arm.
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Unread 03-20-2012, 11:21 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by ftgiles View Post
or on both ends of a bent arm.
radius arms, bent arms rod ends all around.

notice the little keepers on the rear 4 link lowers (second pic)...bushings are not the only way





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Unread 03-20-2012, 11:55 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Climbit View Post
radius arms, bent arms rod ends all around.

notice the little keepers on the rear 4 link lowers (second pic)...bushings are not the only way





Grasshopper, you have a lot to learn..... Especially on the pics you posted. If your radius arm is welded solid then it is a triangle shape, correct? When you mount two points of that triangle to a solid object (axle) then only the third point of the triangle will rotate. If you are not running an upper link (just a lower) on the other side then yes, the link can rotate a bit since it is only mounted on one plane.

As far as your trac bar situation...... If you make long RA as you are stating then there will be very little movement of the axle forward and back, enough for a high misalignment spacers on a rod end can handle easily, thus, a bushing mount on the chassis side. I have been running this setup for about 6 years now and come no where near maxing out high misalignments and a bushing'd trac bar, in fact I'd say it moves less (front to back) then 3*
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Unread 03-20-2012, 12:03 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Climbit View Post
1. Johnny joints do not transfer much NVH at all, anyone who thinks so has never used a johnny joint. those poly bushings you posted will transfer more NVH to the vehicle than a johnny joint.
I run Johnny's at the frame side of my RA's..... thank you, they also go clack-ed-e clack, but they weren't built to be quiet, they were built to rotate so I'm OK with that.

See the Johnny's back there.....



See the bushings up there.....



Seems to work well.....



My limiting factory now is the 63" rear leaf springs, don't move enough for me..... But I'll be pulling another leaf from the pack soon.
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Unread 03-20-2012, 12:12 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by addicted2dunes View Post
I run Johnny's at the frame side of my RA's..... thank you, they also go clack-ed-e clack, but they weren't built to be quiet, they were built to rotate so I'm OK with that.
Just Curious.....How old are your JJ's? I run JJ's and only have 5k with a hand full of off road miles on em.
Mine are quiet and yours are not?
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