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Unread 11-08-2012, 02:03 PM   #121
9703tj
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Ttb ftw!

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Unread 11-08-2012, 02:08 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy02 View Post

The biggest disadvantage that I see with IFS is component strength. While IFS can be made to survive through the torture that most of us put our vehicles through, it is very cost prohibitive. As more and more rock race teams move towards independent suspensions, I believe we will see that begin to trickle down to our level
And how long will that take when looking at stuff like this:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/gener...-ifs-diff.html

"ballpark" price in the $15-20 range. That's $15-20,000. Nice, but likely never in my sights.

If you hadn't seen it already, from this rig here:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/gener...acer-ever.html

Wicked cool stuff there if you're into that kind of thing. Unfortunately very high dollar. Still very cool seeing what is possible in the right hands, even though I'll never own something like that.

Best of Luck,

Mike
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Unread 11-08-2012, 02:51 PM   #123
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Tube is tube is tube-maybe so, but it isn't quite that simple. Pick your joint size then decide on type of tube, weights, material makeup, aluminum or steel, heat treated, desired strength, etc. Do NOT overlook bung size and dimensions and what it will take to fit to the tube if you need them. Don't forget this additional cost either for bungs and nuts-they add up quick with 14 joints... My 1.25" shank JJs are attached to 1.75" .188 wall 4130 heat treated chromo tube which required machining out the inner ID of the tube enough to fit the 4130 bungs before they could be TIG welded fully and plugged as well before final heat treat. That's an extra step that could have been avoided with bigger diameter tube and/or thinner wall. Strength comes at a price and the more you add, the more it goes up. Decide what you want and how you want to go about getting it done-lots of ways to do this but it's a LITTLE more involved than what tube appears to be on the surface.
Let me clarify my "tube is tube" statement. I'm not saying that all tube is the same and that it doesn't matter because the issues and properties you mention make a HUGE difference. All I meant was that I haven't seen radical price differences between vendors on identical amounts of matching material alloys/lengths; this is dissimilar to the cost divergences I've seen on identical brackets, joints and other sundry supplies. I think this is due to the fact that the tubing is a base material with a reasonably standard cost, across the board...but I can't be sure. Also, the tubing isn't a huge cost compared to the other items.

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Ttb ftw!
I've got a busted Bronco with one of those if you want to play with it.
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Unread 11-08-2012, 03:22 PM   #124
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Let me clarify my "tube is tube" statement. I'm not saying that all tube is the same and that it doesn't matter because the issues and properties you mention make a HUGE difference. All I meant was that I haven't seen radical price differences between vendors on identical amounts of matching material alloys/lengths; this is dissimilar to the cost divergences I've seen on identical brackets, joints and other sundry supplies. I think this is due to the fact that the tubing is a base material with a reasonably standard cost, across the board...but I can't be sure. Also, the tubing isn't a huge cost compared to the other items.



I've got a busted Bronco with one of those if you want to play with it.
I'm pretty sure the Bronco TTB was a dana 35/44 or visa versa. I'm thinking more along the lines of the F250 TTB, upgraded with Dana 60 parts. There's a Juggy on PBB running a custom TTB front axle and it's pretty slick. I can't afford anything like it or the others being discussed, so I'll stick with my solid axles for now.

For what it's worth though I ran an 89 Bronco on 39's with 4.56 gears open in the front and wheeled the crap out of it with no failures.
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Unread 11-08-2012, 03:24 PM   #125
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Ttb ftw!
I was wondering what that meant, so I googled it and found this.

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Unread 11-08-2012, 04:37 PM   #126
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For what it's worth though I ran an 89 Bronco on 39's with 4.56 gears open in the front and wheeled the crap out of it with no failures.
Well there you have it, then. You can build yourself a buggy with this one and everyone will go home happy.
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Unread 11-08-2012, 04:55 PM   #127
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Well there you have it, then. You can build yourself a buggy with this one and everyone will go home happy.
Sorry, I already have an HPD60 stowed away in the garage for my next round of upgrades.
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Unread 11-08-2012, 05:07 PM   #128
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Sorry, I already have an HPD60 stowed away in the garage for my next round of upgrades.
Oh well...I guess I'll have to save the 5.8 for something else. Darn.
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Unread 11-08-2012, 06:01 PM   #129
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Oh well...I guess I'll have to save the 5.8 for something else. Darn.
Boat anchor?


























































































































































































J/K!
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Unread 11-08-2012, 06:43 PM   #130
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Would you mind elaborating on this a bit? Some good tech here and civil discussion that isn't found elsewhere. If nobody else minds, I'd appreciate a few more comments on this.

Thanks,

Best of Luck,

Mike
its kind of hard to describe without having seen it first hand. but look at it this way - so when you have weird antisquat numbers and you hit the gas, part of the torque is transferred into your suspension and the body squats right?

now imagine you've got an independent suspension that is driven, and infront of one tire you have a rock that is larger in height than the rolling face of the tire, so ultimately the tire is going to have to be pressed into the rock for it to climb the face of the rock and then roll ontop of it.

with an live axle the suspension is either being pushed or pulled into the frame as the axle shaft loads torque and applies it to the tire. with an double A arm suspension, the arms are being torqued back. one side is planted while the other is being pulled. the axle shaft turns and because of the geometry it starts forcing the suspension to squat or rise depending on how and were the torque is applied (front vs rear etc). that squat or rise is happening because of the applied torque, which is coming form the transmission.

so in turn the transmission is not only applying torque to the tire, which is in a heavily bound state, its also applying torque to the springs and the shocks. lets say that the vehicle this IFS/IRS suspension is on is sporting something like a 3.0 coil over supplemented by a 4.0 bypass shock each with some pretty dope valving. that pair of shocks alone is going to necessitate 200lbs minimum to even start to drive the piston. there is SO much fluid and nitrogen in that shock that no amount of valving is going to change fluid dynamics. then you have the springs which are probably going to be something like a triple rate 50 over 250 over 350lbs/in (just throwing numbers out)

the numbers start adding up

so - end result is that the automatic transmissions that IFS/IRS rock buggies use get REALLY stupid hot really fast because of all the load that is placed on the torque converter and clutch packs.

its just an inherent part of the independent suspension, kinda like how a quadra-coil inherently needs sway bars. theres an explanation, just not one that is easy to grasp or visualize.
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Unread 11-08-2012, 08:48 PM   #131
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Boat anchor?
It's a good package that can be placed low and further rearwards, but it's also - sadly - not street legal here.

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so - end result is that the automatic transmissions that IFS/IRS rock buggies use get REALLY stupid hot really fast because of all the load that is placed on the torque converter and clutch packs.
Okay, so, there's increased "backfeed" into the transmission because of the increased independence of the suspension; I can make that make sense. Am I showing any degree of comprehension or am I retarded? It sounds like the tranny has to fight more because the suspension itself allows more loading and resistance simply by factor of the permissible movement and - therefore - binding.
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Unread 11-09-2012, 06:06 AM   #132
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Correct

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Unread 11-09-2012, 07:13 AM   #133
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Spyder-nicely done, makes perfect sense and yes, I've seen it (perhaps why your explanation makes so much sense?)

Thanks for the explanation-I kinda thought that might be what you were referring to, but wasn't sure.

Best of Luck,

Mike
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Unread 11-09-2012, 07:25 AM   #134
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Hmmm... kind of makes me wonder why IFS guys with automatics aren't running larger coolers. Thinking of it in terms of the transmission load, I can see how everything could get retarded hot in short order.
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Unread 11-09-2012, 07:34 AM   #135
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Hmmm... kind of makes me wonder why IFS guys with automatics aren't running larger coolers. Thinking of it in terms of the transmission load, I can see how everything could get retarded hot in short order.
They have a live rear axle generally, kind of negates it. It's pushing the front end around

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