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Unread 11-05-2012, 08:42 PM   #106
cycleguy04
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By the way, I was playing some Dirt 3 on my PS3 last weekend and I got to looking at the suspension on the buggy class rigs. Very similar to some of the custom coilover setups I've seen on here. I am very tempted to go that route. Handling would be great, but would I run into street legality issues?

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Unread 11-05-2012, 08:55 PM   #107
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Hey maybe some of those books are chilling in the library
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Unread 11-06-2012, 10:10 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kodiak17
Hey maybe some of those books are chilling in the library
I doubt it... they're a bit specialized. I'll make a list later and post some links.

In regards to the question of coilovers: there's no issue with legality that I know of, but you really need to read "The Coilover Bible" before you lean that way.
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Unread 11-07-2012, 06:30 PM   #109
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ultimately, the best suspension option is independent front and rear - the issue you come into is loading the transmission, because now the transmission is moving the suspension too.

fact.
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Unread 11-07-2012, 08:39 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyder6 View Post
ultimately, the best suspension option is independent front and rear - the issue you come into is loading the transmission, because now the transmission is moving the suspension too.

fact.
Right, you are. Upon closer inspection of the front of buggy class rigs (which one does not see regularly in a video game), I noticed they are independant front suspension. Like this.



And other applications like this.



But ye ol' solid axle is still used in competion. Like this.



For simplicity, lets just stick to the latter.

On another note. I've been digging deeper into the proucts that Artec offer, just for sh*ts and giggles (and for the fact they're stuff is just so damn beautiful) and I've notice thay have a 4-link kit. It comes with tubing that the customer cuts to length and threads for control arms and all the associated bracketry and heim joints.



My questions are: Is the kit worth the $900 pricetag and should I opt for a heim joint with bushings?
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Unread 11-07-2012, 08:59 PM   #111
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Heims are lame. Johnny joints are where it's at


16 Johnny joints will cost around 700 alone

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Unread 11-08-2012, 07:08 AM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyder6 View Post
ultimately, the best suspension option is independent front and rear
You paint with a wide brush......

In most cases, I'll take solid axles over independent. With that said, I've not gotten into IFS design/geometry and don't really care to. It just doesn't do much for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cycleguy04 View Post
Right, you are. Upon closer inspection of the front of buggy class rigs (which one does not see regularly in a video game), I noticed they are independant front suspension.
You make it sound like all buggies have IFS. That's not the case.....
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Unread 11-08-2012, 07:12 AM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imped
You paint with a wide brush......

In most cases, I'll take solid axles over independent. With that said, I've not gotten into IFS design/geometry and don't really care to. It just doesn't do much for me.

You make it sound like all buggies have IFS. That's not the case.....
Call Blaine and ask him to tell you about rock racing with independent suspensions. Probably one of the most interesting topics I've ever had with him

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Unread 11-08-2012, 08:06 AM   #114
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I'm not saying IFS can't perform awesome, I know that much....I keep tabs on all of the documented KOH/U4 buggy builds, including the IFS rigs. Personally, it just doesn't interest me and I doubt you'll ever see me build an IFS rig.
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Unread 11-08-2012, 09:59 AM   #115
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I'll be the first one to say that IFS is a cool thing, but we're talking apples and oranges, here: it's just a completely different world although a lot of the same basic principles apply. I don't know that I would try to go that route, myself, even if I had the funding and the shop to make it happen. Hell, I'm not even totally sold on coilovers, yet.

As far as the Artec kit goes, I'm siding with the "stay away from Heim joints" crowd; either fab or buy your brackets and spend the extra caps on JJ's. The tube is...well, it's tube. Nothing difficult there.
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Unread 11-08-2012, 10:02 AM   #116
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Suck it Trabeck
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Unread 11-08-2012, 10:53 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundowner View Post
As far as the Artec kit goes, I'm siding with the "stay away from Heim joints" crowd; either fab or buy your brackets and spend the extra caps on JJ's. The tube is...well, it's tube. Nothing difficult there.
I'll second this. Cycleguy-you live in WA and on the wet side at that. Not sure where you wheel, but the only heims I have on my rig are my front/rear ARs. They are regular maintenance items as they just don't last with the wet/mud/grit we have all over the state. At the cost of the heims for your suspension, I'd NOT want to be replacing those on a regular basis. The JJs in my old setup lasted me many years. I tore them down, cleaned them all up and they are now running on another rig where I expect many more years of reliable use. My new build runs the 2.5" 1.25" shank JJs throughout simply because of how well the old ones worked. Virtually zero maintenance, quiet, simple and just plain work. Why mess with a good thing? Scott at DirtFab was excellent to work with, shipped very fast and awesome on the customer service side of things as well as gave a nice discount. I'd give him a call when you're ready. Gerald was out when I ordered my stuff so I couldn't track him down at that time. He's also another great vendor to order through at Savvy with great deals on Currie stuff. Artec makes excellent stuff as well-if I could have paid the bill, I'd have likely gone that route rather than building everything myself. IF you go with their brackets, talk to them about a package deal for everything you need except the joints, get the JJs elsewhere-unless they can get them for comparable price of course... With package deals like this, you're often better off biting the bullet and doing one single large purchase where the vendor can offer slightly better breaks on many items rather than a tiny break on a single if that makes sense. More up front cost for you yes, but often less money as a whole in the long run.

Tube is tube is tube-maybe so, but it isn't quite that simple. Pick your joint size then decide on type of tube, weights, material makeup, aluminum or steel, heat treated, desired strength, etc. Do NOT overlook bung size and dimensions and what it will take to fit to the tube if you need them. Don't forget this additional cost either for bungs and nuts-they add up quick with 14 joints... My 1.25" shank JJs are attached to 1.75" .188 wall 4130 heat treated chromo tube which required machining out the inner ID of the tube enough to fit the 4130 bungs before they could be TIG welded fully and plugged as well before final heat treat. That's an extra step that could have been avoided with bigger diameter tube and/or thinner wall. Strength comes at a price and the more you add, the more it goes up. Decide what you want and how you want to go about getting it done-lots of ways to do this but it's a LITTLE more involved than what tube appears to be on the surface.

Having returned from a couple week trip, I am SO happy with the rig as a whole with the new suspension setup. Imped has done an excellent job nailing everything above and the only thing I can add is that I agree 100% with the numbers he's tossed out previously. With my setup, it is planted so well over the rough washboard crap compared to prior that I constantly found myself stopping to wait for the guys behind me who just couldn't keep up-not for lack of driving skill, but for lack of suspension to handle the terrain. Simply put, mine just soaks it up better which allows for faster speeds to the point you don't realize how fast you're actually traveling to get where you're going. It's really quite enjoyable. On the steep nasty off-camber stuff-Wow, all I can say. Where I'd spin prior, have wheel hop and bounce, It now climbs much easier and remains firmly planted. That translates to better traction on the ground and easier climbing ability.

I do have a few electrical issues to work out and a front locker problem now, but suspension wise-man, SO worth the work!!! Hurry up and start cutting-you have no idea how much better it will be once you're done!

Best of Luck,

Mike
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Unread 11-08-2012, 11:01 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyder6 View Post
- the issue you come into is loading the transmission, because now the transmission is moving the suspension too.
Would you mind elaborating on this a bit? Some good tech here and civil discussion that isn't found elsewhere. If nobody else minds, I'd appreciate a few more comments on this.

Thanks,

Best of Luck,

Mike
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Unread 11-08-2012, 11:19 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 55willystruck View Post
Having returned from a couple week trip, I am SO happy with the rig as a whole with the new suspension setup. Imped has done an excellent job nailing everything above and the only thing I can add is that I agree 100% with the numbers he's tossed out previously. With my setup, it is planted so well over the rough washboard crap compared to prior that I constantly found myself stopping to wait for the guys behind me who just couldn't keep up-not for lack of driving skill, but for lack of suspension to handle the terrain. Simply put, mine just soaks it up better which allows for faster speeds to the point you don't realize how fast you're actually traveling to get where you're going. It's really quite enjoyable. On the steep nasty off-camber stuff-Wow, all I can say. Where I'd spin prior, have wheel hop and bounce, It now climbs much easier and remains firmly planted. That translates to better traction on the ground and easier climbing ability.
Thanks Mike! And don't forget man, an undramatic suspension = easier on parts.
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Unread 11-08-2012, 12:34 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by spyder6 View Post
Call Blaine and ask him to tell you about rock racing with independent suspensions. Probably one of the most interesting topics I've ever had with him
Not a conversation that I have had with Blaine but an interesting topic none the less. IFS has some distinct advantages as well as some distinct dis-advantages. The most immediate advantage that I see is that on a IFS rig, as the tires move up and down, the contact patch remains the same. On a solid axle, the side that moves up is now riding on the inside edge of the tire while the side that moves down is riding on the outside edge. Further, because of that I would think that an IFS rig would have less propensity to debead a tire.

The biggest disadvantage that I see with IFS is component strength. While IFS can be made to survive through the torture that most of us put our vehicles through, it is very cost prohibitive. As more and more rock race teams move towards independent suspensions, I believe we will see that begin to trickle down to our level
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