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Unread 11-19-2012, 07:32 PM   #16
Motas
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What did the B3.3 come out in? And what year was the last ones? Anything sold in Australia after 1998 is easy to get legal. And anything more efficient than a 4.0 should pass but its more expensive to have it tested.
Bellhousings and adaptors are pretty cheap to transport but getting a motor shipped from USA costs almost a thousand dollars plus 10% GST on the total cost landed. If I keep something under $1k it is exempt from GST.
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Unread 11-19-2012, 09:16 PM   #17
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What did the B3.3 come out in? And what year was the last ones? Anything sold in Australia after 1998 is easy to get legal. And anything more efficient than a 4.0 should pass but its more expensive to have it tested.
Bellhousings and adaptors are pretty cheap to transport but getting a motor shipped from USA costs almost a thousand dollars plus 10% GST on the total cost landed. If I keep something under $1k it is exempt from GST.
Thanks.
I couldn't tell you what vehicles the 3.3 is in, honestly...I know of it as an agricultural/industrial engine. It puts out somewhere around 210 lbs/ft and it weighs around 500 and a bit...I think it's mid-5's with a turbo. That's not great, by my standards, but I'm sure that tuning could make up for it.

Now I'm going to throw a wrench in the works and suggest a different route for you: box trucks, delivery trucks, bread truck and things of that nature. A lot of those platforms are going to be Nissan and Toyota - or something from their subsidiary/sister companies - and those makes are available on a more global market...and a lot of them come with smaller, lightweight diesel engines. Here, one of the easy strategies towards finding a baby diesel is to pick up one of these vehicles, and I would imagine that it will be much the same for you.

Even so, the tuned TDI from post-'98 is a great option. I'd source your engine locally if at ALL possible and buy the crazy adapters from overseas. Factory service manuals make it all much easier...
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Unread 11-20-2012, 02:20 AM   #18
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Alright well I'll list some of the common diesels I can get cheaply (truck ones most likely wont be able to engineer cheaply I think they had different laws):
Nissan Patrols
Toyota Land Cruisers
Toyota Hiluxs
Holden Rodeo
Mitsubishi Pajero
Nissan Navara
Land Rover Discovery

Here is a search for a diesel car in Australia from lowest price to highest.
I found out a 3.3 is in industrial uses like generators. Couldn't find any for sale.
Ill have a look at delivery trucks and the like and see what I can dig up.
I think a little TDI would be best.
Thanks for all the help, still not sure if I'll go through with it though might be more hassle than its worth.
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Unread 11-20-2012, 02:44 AM   #19
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Sorry for the double post but did some looking and found this:
http://www.hpamotorsport.com/tdiconversions.htm
A wrecked Golf could do the trick, the kits are expensive but I think it could be worth it. It is a very small and light motor and can get about 300 ft lbs of torque out of it easily. Plus there should be no teething problems, might have some issues with being RHD but should be fixable with a bit of thought.
Thoughts? A bit of an expensive route that's all.
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Unread 11-20-2012, 08:29 AM   #20
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Sorry for the double post but did some looking and found this:
http://www.hpamotorsport.com/tdiconversions.htm
A wrecked Golf could do the trick, the kits are expensive but I think it could be worth it. It is a very small and light motor and can get about 300 ft lbs of torque out of it easily. Plus there should be no teething problems, might have some issues with being RHD but should be fixable with a bit of thought.
Thoughts? A bit of an expensive route that's all.
Thanks.
The HPA kit is mucho-expensive. I'd source an engine/tranny from one of the combinations you listed...especially the ones that are heavier than your rig.
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Unread 11-20-2012, 04:37 PM   #21
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There all heavier haha, big ugly things they are. The only problem I might run into is powertrain length. Would be much nicer to keep my tranny but don't think any are adaptable.
Hows an LS1 go for fuel efficiency? I can get a wrecked Commodore (big ugly sedan that every bogan owns over here) with an LS1 for dirt cheap and everything works easy as. Totally illegal for me to drive before im 22 but doubt the jeep will be going by then and if it is no ones gonna think its high powered. Just don't wanna get a smaller range than what I already have but want more power as well. Diesel would be good but seems like nothing works well that I can get cheap enough.
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Unread 11-20-2012, 04:58 PM   #22
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Almost anything is adaptable...but LS swaps are cake, and you'll still get a touch more mileage. Lots of guys here grab 18-ish...20-ish. What's illegal about having one before you're 22? And what the f*** is a bogan??
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Unread 11-20-2012, 09:26 PM   #23
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In Australia you have your learners (or Ls) where you have to drive with a fully licensed driver when your 16-18. When your 18 you do a test and get your probationary license (or Ps) where you can't drive cars with engines modified for performance, v8s or turbocharged (unless diesel or low power and a family car) until you 22. Which means I can't drive any of my parents cars (turbocharged Audi A4, v8 diesel Silverado or high powered Porsche) and is a major pain in the *** trying to get a decent daily driver which isn't turbo or v8 and isn't gutless. Lucky Mazda RX8s are a bit of a loophole since on paper they are a 1.3L 2 cylinder naturally aspirated car, but in reality put out more power to weight than half the turbo cars.
We also have horribly strict modification laws. Above 2" lift (including lift gained from tyres) must be engineered. Tyres must be fully covered no matter what. Any welding done to the chassis must be engineered. Approved bumpers may be used without engineering. Roll cages are illegal. And it is very had to become an approved engineer so most who have been approved charge heaps to get anything done. Probably about $1000 to approve an engine swap plus another $1000 if it has to be tested for emissions.
Bogans are kinda like hill billys. The people who drive around in old commodores with stockies on the back and no springs and think theyre cars are awesome when they really aren't. not all commodore drivers are but a lot of bogans have commodores because theyre really cheap and easy to find. They also like to put Chev badges on them for no apparent reason. Just one big Australian joke pretty much from anyone who doesn't drive a commodore.
For example: http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs70/i/20...perSprayer.jpg
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Unread 11-20-2012, 10:14 PM   #24
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While were on the topic of different types of engines. What about a turbo smaller displacement motor? Such as an sr20det, a ford falcon xr6t motor, a 2jz? I have access to an sr22det for free with bulk spare parts (pulled it out of a buggy and is now sitting in the old mans shed). And what about a rotary? I am very interested in automotive engineering (would like to make this my career) and the rotary design is an amazing design and very different to conventional motors.
The advantage I could see for the sr22 is better fuel efficiency than a 4.0 or an lsx motor and similar power to an lsx, plus its free and have spares. An xr6t motor is easy and cheap to come by, it is a 4.0 inline six but is a more modern design than the jeep and can push a lot of power and torque pretty easily. 2JZ is very similar to this.
The advantage I could see for the rotary is the extreme compactness and lightweight design. The RX8s Renesis weighs in at 247 pounds according to Wikipedia. Compared to Jeeps 515 pounds. Which is less than half the weight and would leave heaps of room in the engine bay. But from what I have heard they are lacking in torque and are not very fuel efficient. Not sure if these problems can be addressed or not. But they do have a huge power to weight ratio compared to anything else. They are also an extremely simple design and can be lifted by one person, potentially allowing trail fixes since there are only 5 moving parts. They can also be turbo charged pretty easy, maybe fixing the fuel efficiency and torque?
Opinions? Thoughts?
Thanks.
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Unread 11-24-2012, 10:38 PM   #25
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Well... I can't say a lot about the options down under... but I have the jeep with a TDI, and my build thread is the one that has been linked a couple times in this tread.

As far as the TDI goes... I am happy with it, and it provides comparable power to the 4.0 with substantially better economy. I swapped over to toyota driveline due to my personal interests, however it can be swapped to the Jeep trans pretty easily. HPA sells kits to make it all pretty much bolt in... any you pay accordingly.

The jeep trans and the toy trans are the same core unit... so you can make a hybrid jeep trans with a toy bellhousing and input shaft that will mate up to a tdi engine with an acme adapter for a more reasonable price. You would be on your own for engine mounts and everything else though.

The cummins 3.9 was sold in step vans here, but the 3.3 was not sold in any street vehicles in the U.S. to the best of my knowledge. All of which are hard to get legal in the u.s. due to the fact they were not factory installed in any light truck applications. Who knows in Australia?

The only reasonably sized diesel sold in the us that works is the one in the liberty... but it is not known for being very reliable as far as diesels go.

Options in US are going big and pulling a nissan, isuzu, cummins, etc from a commercial truck, a jeep liberty, or a very small VW. Unfortunately we don't get very many passenger vehicle diesel options here... you probably get more there.

Any way you look at it, a diesel swap is not simple... and not been done time and time again so you will have to dig really deep for info, and figure some stuff out on your own. Cummins is the most common swap in the u.s. so it is relatively easy to find info for compared to the others. It is also arguably the easiest to make work.

A rotary would be cool in it's own way... and the right one could perform well in a jeep. All we have is the old rx-7 and the rx-8 stateside, and I'm not overly familiar with them myself. If you have good access to free/cheap ones, and familiarity with them I would be inclined to look into what it would take to make them work. It would be unique as heck and the savings would likely be substantial over sourcing an appropriate die$el donor... at least over here.

Wish I could offer some legit info pertaining to australian options... but I'm stuck in the diesel unfriendly US market.
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Unread 11-25-2012, 12:25 AM   #26
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We do have a lot of diesel cars, mostly work utes (pickups but smaller) though but the only problem is as you've stated. Jeeps aren't popular here and diesels aren't popular over there so its undone. One thing I can get very easily is a Toyota Hilux diesel. What Toyota transmission is it that shares Jeep parts? The only problem I can see is the unmodified engine is lacking power but it can be turboed and boosted to a decent output.
Cummins is not an option, the 3.3 is the only reasonable sized one and not going to be legal.
RX series are the only (common) car to have a rotary so same options here, I should be able to get a rotary reasonably cheap but I am not overly familiar with them. I know a few people put them in Suzuki's and they said it was scary fast and lifted wheels on the street. One thing I remember reading somewhere was that although a rotaries peak torque is at very high RPM (7-8k) it still makes nearly as much torque all the way through the RPM range, so I think with a turbo tuned to spool up right away it could actually provide good torque. They also have a very flat power curve which is close to linear compared to a conventional engine which would also be helpful. The only thing that worries me is the reliability and economy. The weak point in the rotary design is the apex seals which seal the triangular shaped rotor to the combustion chamber. Since these are on an apex they can only be supported from one end and they tend to fail. And the economy of an RX8 is horrific for the size, but comparable to a v8 and comparable power too so I suppose it just sounds bad being a 1.3L. One thing that is kinda sweet is that it is so tiny that I think I could fit something in the engine bay, such as a fuel cell or toolbox between the engine and radiator. For reference it is 520mm long from pulleys to rear of block, 650mm tall (including some stuff) and 650mm wide.
Thanks for your help.
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Unread 11-25-2012, 12:51 AM   #27
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Ax5 shares core with G series, and ax15 shares core with R series. Best combo is taking an ax15 and using a toyota turbo bellhousing and input shaft, as it was the only application (in us) that used the R series trans behind a 4 cyl engine, which allows for the acme adapter, but the turbos are rare.

I still like the idea of a rotary... but only if you feel like reinventing the wheel even more so than you would already be doing with a diesel. I am also aware of the inherent downsides of a rotary such as reliability.

TDI is roughly the same size as the rotary... I was thinking of using that space for storage box, however I ended up moving my whole driveline forward to use that length to squeeze in a dual case and a little bit longer rear driveshaft.

Keep in mind you will likely kill some of that space with turbo hoses and intercooler.

You are definitely in the realm of things that will just require that you research everywhere you can. TDICLUB.com is a great VW TDI resource... 4btswaps.com has some good info on several diesels, but primarily the cummins. Search every forum out there, from jeep forums, to toyota forums, to zuk forums, etc.

A lot of the info I gained that helped was from people swapping my engine into other random vehicles, as it hasn't been swapped into very many jeeps.

No one can answer all questions when it comes to diesel swaps, especially people who haven't done them. Search for the threads where people have actually done something similar, if not what you actually have in mind... just keep researching!

Eventually you just have to pull the trigger, commit to one route... and then work through the little challenges as you come across them.

Good luck!
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Unread 11-25-2012, 02:02 AM   #28
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Ah had a look at the R series gearboxes. Toyota Hiluxes, the most common work ute here, used one. So that would be an easy swap mechanically and cheap to buy the motor. But they are gutless. We just brought one as a farm vehicle which is in fairly bad condition but has an aftermarket turbo running higher boost and its probably less powerful than the Jeep is. However if someone is looking to do a diesel swap without worrying about power you could easily and cheaply buy one and ship it over, they are a small diesel 4 cylinder and very reliable and pretty efficient.
I am running and plan to stay very low so driveshaft length isn't an issue and I probably would use that space as a tool box and recovery gear storage.
I am researching a lot but really not sure which direction is best. After the research I have done I have these options:
LS1, cheap and easy to get and put in, good power but big, heavy and uses a lot of fuel
Hilux diesel, cheap and easy to get and put in, no power but small light and efficient
VW diesel, expensive, easy to put in, reasonable power small light and efficient
13b rotary, mid price, no idea how to put it in, good power, small and reasonably efficient and itd be very unique and sound awesome
Will continue to do research though.
Thanks.
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Unread 11-25-2012, 10:36 AM   #29
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Remember: when you remove weight, you remove the need for power to move it. Also - not to skew your decision - the aluminum LS blocks are among the lightest V8's out there.

Rotary: very trick idea, but lots of work. I'd like to see it done.
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Unread 11-25-2012, 11:08 AM   #30
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For me, the increased MPG of a diesel engine didn't outweigh the money it would take to get there. If you want to do it just to be different and have bragging rights when you open the hood - that's really the only reasonable reason to me to drop a diesel into a TJ.

You really need to sit down and think long and hard about what the current engine does, it's power curve, and what is to be gained (or lost) by an engine swap.

Traditionally, these are the reasons for swapping to a different engine:

Increase power
Lower weight
Increase RPM operating range
Increase fuel economy
Change fuel type
Improve reliability
Swap to platform with better aftermarket / spare parts availability
X factor (bragging rights, different, etc)

The 4.0 is a fantastic stock engine. It's a little on the heavy side, has good power, good operating range, fantastic reliability, good spare parts / aftermarket availability. Decent fuel mileage for the platform it is in. (weight / aerodynamics)

Lets look at the B3.3.

Weight is ok, around 50 or more pounds more than a 4.0, not taking into account things like a charge cooler and it's associated piping.

Power, not so exciting. 80hp, around 200ft pounds of torque for a B3.3. We are talking about less power AND torque than a stock 4.0 (less HP than the 2.5L 4 cylinder) with a drastically lower RPM range (2600 RPM in the case of the computer controlled engine). That would put me to sleep. Sure you can increase the stock power. You would lose reliability though. Your gearing is going to have to be right on to get any sort of acceleration with a top speed that is acceptable.

Fuel economy will be better with a caveat. From my reading, diesel has about 15% more potential energy than gas. So much more than 15% better fuel mileage will mean that you are having less fun getting to where you are going. Most people can improve their millage without an engine swap, although this makes for a more boring commute.

Really, we are just left with X factor and bragging rights. Unless you have access to a machine shop and fab tools (plus a lot of spare time) you are going to be spending a TON of money just to get some sort of mechanical self-esteem.
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