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Unread 06-16-2009, 08:16 AM   #61
WJ04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adventioneering View Post
I'll be happy to demonstrate whenever you like. You bring the hamburgers?
Please don't...I mean its cool that you wheel and all, but if your using go arounds to get past the bigger obsticles in OFR than you are in fact doing so illigaly and as stated before by ToxicTurtle (who if you knew anything about Really Really knows what he's talking about when it comes to land use) can lead to the closing of such land. Also at the end you must go through the bog pond sticking to the left side and not go around it for the same reasons.

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Unread 06-16-2009, 10:17 AM   #62
thejafe
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Originally Posted by WJ04 View Post
Please don't...I mean its cool that you wheel and all, but if your using go arounds to get past the bigger obsticles in OFR than you are in fact doing so illigaly and as stated before by ToxicTurtle (who if you knew anything about Really Really knows what he's talking about when it comes to land use) can lead to the closing of such land. Also at the end you must go through the bog pond sticking to the left side and not go around it for the same reasons.
Ok, I'm not doubting any of this at all just wondering...

If the bypass and bog are such sensitive areas why are they not closed off altogether or marked in a such a way to make it clear not to enter?
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Unread 06-16-2009, 10:41 AM   #63
adventioneering
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Originally Posted by WJ04 View Post
Please don't...I mean its cool that you wheel and all, but if your using go arounds to get past the bigger obsticles in OFR than you are in fact doing so illigaly and as stated before by ToxicTurtle (who if you knew anything about Really Really knows what he's talking about when it comes to land use) can lead to the closing of such land. Also at the end you must go through the bog pond sticking to the left side and not go around it for the same reasons.
Who said go around? The question at hand is can a unlocked tj make it "easily" on 31s and the answer is yes. The bog isn't that big a deal, it's just wet and scary, and the shelves you can just winch over. Anyone can argue on the Internet - let's go out there and see the ground truth. I've already been through once and not only did I get through on 31s we got an unlocked nolift tj through on 29s - although that part was harder than easy and easier than hard.
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Unread 06-16-2009, 10:48 AM   #64
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Winching over the obstacles doesn't count, therefor you did not "easily do the trail on 31s" like you are claiming. By your logic I could throw a ATV winch on my golf cart and do the whole trail on 22" turf tires. Sounds like a good idea. You bring the burgers!
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Unread 06-16-2009, 10:53 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by 1 ton yj View Post
winching doesn't count. therefor you did not "do the trail on 31s" like you are claiming. By your logic I could throw a ATV winch on my golf cart and do the whole trail on 22" turf tires. You bring the burgers.
You could do that, but it wouldn't be pretty.

Winching doesn't count? I think that's silly. What about use of a recovery strap, or lockers? Mud tires? Should we discount those as well? It doesn't matter how you make it through a trail as long as it's completed in a safe and legal manner. A winch is just another tool to help you along.
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Unread 06-16-2009, 11:01 AM   #66
adventioneering
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Originally Posted by 1 ton yj View Post
Winching over the obstacles doesn't count, therefor you did not "easily do the trail on 31s" like you are claiming. By your logic I could throw a ATV winch on my golf cart and do the whole trail on 22" turf tires. Sounds like a good idea. You bring the burgers!
I will TOTALLY bring the burgers for that. And the tents, because it'll take us two days to winch your golf cart that far
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Unread 06-16-2009, 11:13 AM   #67
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If the vehicle drives itself up an obstacle it counts. Be it with mud tires, lockers, or suspension. A winch is considered outside assistance. The vehicle could not make the obstacle on it's own was removed by means other than its own power in order to keep the group moving. To say that the trail was done easily on 31s is a false statement because the vehicle really did not drive the whole trail easily, it was pulled up the hard parts.

I could go winch my rig up the side of the building and it doesn't even run right now. What does that count for?
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Unread 06-16-2009, 11:18 AM   #68
thejafe
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Originally Posted by 1 ton yj View Post
If the vehicle drives itself up an obstacle it counts. Be it with mud tires, lockers, or suspension. A winch is considered outside assistance. The vehicle could not make the obstacle on it's own was removed by means other than its own power in order to keep the group moving. To say that the trail was done easily on 31s is a false statement because the vehicle really drive the whole trail, it was pulled up the hard parts.
We disagree on this, and that's fine. I understand your argument but a trail run isn't a contest. In my mind there is no disqualification. To me, winching is considered a normal and routine activity inherent to wheeling. Therefore, it isn't "outside assistance." Besides, he's not even receiving help from another vehicle... he's winching himself.
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Unread 06-16-2009, 11:41 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1 ton yj View Post
If the vehicle drives itself up an obstacle it counts. Be it with mud tires, lockers, or suspension. A winch is considered outside assistance. The vehicle could not make the obstacle on it's own was removed by means other than its own power in order to keep the group moving. To say that the trail was done easily on 31s is a false statement because the vehicle really did not drive the whole trail easily, it was pulled up the hard parts.

I could go winch my rig up the side of the building and it doesn't even run right now. Does that count?
This is true... if someone that is on 31's with no locker and NO winch reads your post, they are gonna think they can make it just fine. And when they realize they can't because you failed to mention you had to winch up they will do one of two things be smart and turn around or use those go arounds that I mentioned. And if the bog pond isn't that big a deal, just wet and scary, why did you adventioneering say this in your blog about OFR?:

''On the other hand, on the other side of the ridge lies bog. Neither jeep got mud-stuck, though, as we were able to dig down to the rock below. We did not attempt the water feature that we affectionately named ôlake michigan''

Also for the record ..I'm not arguing I'm just trying to pass some friendly knowlage as to not confuse others
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Unread 06-16-2009, 11:50 AM   #70
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This is true... if someone that is on 31's with no locker and NO winch reads your post, they are gonna think they can make it just fine. And when they realize they can't because you failed to mention you had to winch up they will do one of two things be smart and turn around or use those go arounds that I mentioned.
That's a great point I meant to make but didn't. By claiming the trail is easily doable on 31s you're going to have hordes of kids and other inexperienced wheelers in under-equiped vehicles hitting the trail who probably skimmed over the part of the post on the jeep site where it was stated that bypassing is illegal and this is an upper-difficulty trail. Do you think a newbie is going to pull rope on that ledge when they saw how easily the guy on the computer in the Jeep like theirs just drove around it? In my experience the answer is the bypass unfortunately.
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Unread 06-16-2009, 01:19 PM   #71
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To me, winching is considered a normal and routine activity inherent to wheeling. Therefore, it isn't "outside assistance."
The typical rhetoric is usually. "Did you make it over Badazz Rock on last weekend's ride?", "Almost, but no, I had to winch over." The answer is not a simple "Yes". Don't analyze so much. You are talking about successfully getting to the other end of the trail, no matter how. He is talking about personal satisfaction. I'm very not satisfied if I try a rock a dozen ways, then end up having to winch over. Don't make it sound like it's the same, you know it's not.
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Unread 06-16-2009, 02:45 PM   #72
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Don't make it sound like it's the same, you know it's not.
Seconded.
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Unread 06-16-2009, 02:47 PM   #73
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I'm very not satisfied if I try a rock a dozen ways, then end up having to winch over. Don't make it sound like it's the same, you know it's not.
Perhaps that's where you and I differ. I may try an obstacle a few times but if it's clear that I can't make it I will ask for assistance just to be on the safe side. This doesn't leave me dissatisfied, it's simply the easiest option so that the group can continue on down the trail.

I would agree with 1 ton YJ on this if adventioneering's rig had to be dragged down the entire trail like his buddy. If multiple recoveries with winches and straps are required to successfully navigate the terrain then I'd say it isn't "easily passable." But come on, winching over TWO obstacles over a 6 mile stretch is no big deal.
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Unread 06-16-2009, 02:58 PM   #74
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Perhaps that's where you and I differ. I may try an obstacle a few times but if it's clear that I can't make it I will ask for assistance just to be on the safe side. This doesn't leave me dissatisfied, it's simply the easiest option so that the group can continue on down the trail.

I would agree with 1 ton YJ on this if adventioneering's rig had to be dragged down the entire trail like his buddy. If multiple recoveries with winches and straps are required to successfully navigate the terrain then I'd say it isn't "easily passable." But come on, winching over TWO obstacles over a 6 mile stretch is no big deal.
It is a BIG DEAL if said Jeep owner with 31" tires has no winch and decided to run the trail because someone here said it's doable! The Jeep owner has two choices legal (turn around) or illegal (use the go around).
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Unread 06-16-2009, 03:07 PM   #75
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It is a BIG DEAL if said Jeep owner with 31" tires has no winch and decided to run the trail because someone here said it's doable! The Jeep owner has two choices legal (turn around) or illegal (use the go around).
Agreed. But that would be a different case.

Deterring irresponsible kids, solo noobs and under equipped rigs from entering the trail is a separate issue. None of the above belong on ANY trail. Period.

The question was whether or not this trail is passable on 31's. I'm simply saying that it has been proven that the trail is passable on 31's if you winch up two obstacles. I've seen pictures and videos of WJ's on 31's making it but I'm sure they were locked.

Either way, trails like OFR should be used with care and all of the advice given in this thread as to what is legal and what is not should be followed.
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