[sixfoot9psu]

Originally Posted by KevKaos

I dont think that red rig of yours will do very well at Trails.

are you kidding me?!?! it clears speed bumps with ease!

[KevKaos]

Originally Posted by sixfoot9psu

are you kidding me?!?! it clears speed bumps with ease!

You kidding me, you ever see the speed bumps at Trails Rd?

[littlethimble]

We had a group of 7 Jeeps down there on Sunday and had a blast. One of the homeowners was down by the stream planting trees across from his property so we stopped to help plant them. I have a pretty much Bone stock TJ and only had a little difficulty on the rocks. It was my first time with Rocks but other than a few near heart attack moments with off camber, it was a lot of fun.

[wiseguy52]

I am from the shippensburg area, we may have to pay a visit over there soon.

[GregStephens2]

Ok so some of the PA guys are clkose enough as well.

I just ordered new 15" beadlocks and tires.
So I'm looking to part with my old stuff for a good price to a local who can pick them up.
What I'll have available after this coming Wed night will be 5 37" x12.5 geolanders with 55% + tread left on them.
And a set of five black rock 997's with Beadlocks TIGed in. The wheel end up being 9.5's with the beadlock kit.
And have 4.5" back spacing.
If you can pick them up at my place the set of five will be $650, and everything is already mounted and balanced.
Shoot me a PM if you are interested.

[mikeg576]

I was contacted by a homeowner on east trails road via a classic jeep forum.

I got this email a couple of days ago and promised to pass this onto you before I posted it in the Trails Road thread as a disclaimer. Don't get me wrong, I'm still giving you the benefit of the doubt before a stranger, but if its a disputed 'road' then I may have to put it out there. We get alot of things like this around here too, people sometimes mistakenly claiming that an old public road that isn't maintained any longer is their private property because it crosses land that they own...
But like I said I wanted to pass it onto you first before I posted anything.

"Hi,
You don't know me-- I did register for the forums, but have been unable to access the information I needed. There have been postings from Mike from Aberdeen about taking groups to Trails Road in southern York County, Pa. I want to let Mike know that Trails Road is a private road open to residents only. (I am a resident there.) The road is posted with yellow diamond shaped signs that say "private road"; and most people enter on East Trails, which also has a stop sign that says "residents only".
Our sign-posting is frequently removed; but there are currently signs visible about twelve feet up on at least three trees-- I checked this morning.
This road is NOT a public road-- if it were, it would be in better condition than it is.
Additionally, taking jeeps or other off-road vehicles into Muddy Creek, which is a stocked trout stream, carries a fine of up to $1000. This fine is issued by the Pa. Boat Commission.
Mike is very welcome to email me with any questions.
I regret that there are not more places that are open to the public where young people can drive their off-road vehicles.
You may post this announcement if you like, or forward it on to Mike.
Thank you, "

[mikeg576]

This was my response,
"Hello,
I was given your message from the Admin at thisoldjeep.com. I read your email and understand your concerns and point. I've been visiting your road since 1999 and have always been more than respectful home owners there. Local law enforcement was contacted and found the road to be a legal road open to the public. I stress to everyone I speak to to stay clear of East Trails Rd as there is absolutely no reason to use that side of the road. Although many state its a public road and they are free to use it as such. I choose to stay clear of that side out of respect for you, the home owners. I've never been asked to not travel the road but in fact had a home owner come out and watch us.
I have also been one of the people pushing to keep 4x4 owners out of the stream or so called water fall. The "Trails Rd" does not pertain to any water way what so ever and there for is irresponsible, disrespectful, and illegal. On many occasions when I do see someone in the water or "water fall" area I take photos of the vehicle, it's owner, and of the license plate. I then post that onto forms like thisoldjeep.com but more popular and make it known we do not condone and will not allow behavior or flat out disrespect of the land and of the home owners in the area.
I understand your frustration as I would be also if this was my home and had to deal with this everyday. All I can do is try to project responsible off roading and teach new users how to not only respect the land but the people that live there. I will say that I have no plans to stop using the road until there is official notice by law enforcement stating the road is no longer public access. I do promise that I and many others are standing firm and trying to make a difference with other users and creating a respectful and responsible awareness when using the road. *I am open to discussion about this and will 100% surrender if I am told by law enforcement this is not a public access road. At that time I will spread the word to all Jeep owners to stop use of the road under penalty of law.
Again I understand your problem. I can't change the mind of everyone using the road. I can try to enforce respectful use of it. I can tell you that a search of the jeep and off road forums will come up with many threads on and about your road. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised with the overwhelming positive attitudes of jeep owners about responsible land use. You'll find that we do not support reckless disregard for land use and we shun users that don't treat places like Trails Rd with respect. You may find that much of the problem comes from locals having a "good old time" as they always have in a place that has become to popular for its small size.
I do not feel as I or any of the people that join "me" on the road have broken any law. I do not attempt to hide who I am or how I can be reached. All of my contact information can be found below in my signature. Please feel free to contact me if there is anything I can do to help you in this matter.
Sincerely,

Mike Gardner
Sales Department
Adams Jeep of Maryland
3485 Churchville Md
Aberdeen Md 21001

Office 410-879-5800
Cell 443-752-8914

Sent from my iPad"

[mikeg576]

This is her response,
"Hi Mike,
Thanks so much for taking the time to answer my letter, and in such a courteous manner.

Here's some information that may be helpful to you:
We have no local police in Peach Bottom Township-- when called, they are sent from the barracks in Dallastown, Pa.* They are often not aware of township zoning and** property laws, and what is public and private.* (They do their best, I think)* The area called Susquehanna Trails, which is bordered by Trails Rd and Muddy Creek
on its northern edge, consists of 2,000 acres and* was privately developed in the* early 60's.* Roads into and out of the "Trails" were then and remain the responsibility of individual home and lot owners.* As a homeowner, I have to provide access through my road to my immediate neighbors (so they can reach their homes) and of course to emergency vehicles.* It is legal for me to gate my property,-- e.g. my stretch of* both Trails and Deepdale Rds.-- as long as I provide keys to adjacent home/lot owners, the Fire Dept, etc. Up to this point I have chosen not to do that;* but. the* portions of Trails Rd and Deepdale Road* that cross my property are private;* uninvited visitors are trespassing. ** I* do tell* everyone that they are welcome to pass through my property on foot to enjoy the beauty of the stream.

Here is the name of the zoning and "legal" officer for Peach Bottom Township:* Michelle Poole.* Her headquarters are at the Peach Bottom Township Office on West Broad Street Extended near Delta. (West Broad is the eastern continuation of 851) * She knows all the township laws, property rights, and road access rights. She is always there on Monday mornings.* I will gladly go with you to meet with her;* we can talk to the police together, if you like.* I"m sure whatever they said to you was with the best of intentions, but it was completely incorrect.** If you remember any of their names, I will write to them and correct this misinformation.

By the way, I don't live on East Trails;* I live right at the juncture of Trails and Deepdale. (Some maps show it as Midvale.)* This is pretty much the center point of Trails Rd;* in fact, I think it swtiches from East Trails to West Trails at Deepdale. * My cabin is* quite close to the river and is the one with the green screened porch.* It is true that there is one homeowner over on West Trails that doesn't mind the jeep traffic.* (He's a nice guy.)* By all means, ride on HIS property as much as you like.* There's another woman to the east of me who is simply afraid to confront* trespassers.

I do want to acknowledge that the amount of trash on Trails Rd has been greatly reduced over the last ten years.* (I've lived here for 22 years.)** I believe the organized clubs are in large part responsible for this improvement.* And it is good to hear that your group is** not going into the river, and discouraging others from doing so.*

This part of my letter* was written a bit later:
On my way into town this morning, I stopped at the township office.* Ms.* Poole was out doing inspections, but I left a message for her to call me.* I will get you a written statement* that Trails Rd (and other roads in Susquehanna Trails ) are private roads.* Or, as I said, I'm happy to meet with you and her, or with you and the Pa. State Police.* I DO NOT LIKE TO CALL THE POLICE ON ANYONE.* But I have done so several times, when car bodies were left beside Trails Rd or massive amounts of trash were dumped.* If you've* been coming to Trails Rd since 1992, you'll remember the derelict cars.* I am the one who paid to have them hauled away!

Again, I really appreciate your quick and courteous response.* Please feel free to call me if you would like:* 410-952-9934.* (I also have a home and office in Baltimore.)* My work involves phone calls, so if the line is busy, please leave a good time for me to call you back.

I regret giving you information that I fear, in the long run, will be disappointing to you.* As I said in my first letter, I wish there were more public spaces for* young people to take jeeps and ATVs.

Sincerely,"

[Siva283]

Originally Posted by KevKaos

Sorry I missed out on joining you guys today. The weather was fantastic and it looks like you guys had a good time. That little red YJ did pretty damn good in my opinion. Jack that baby up and get some aggressive tread on her and she'll be eating up the rest of the waterfall. Maybe next time I can join you guys.

LOL Its lifted now

[Siva283]

Originally Posted by mikeg576

This is her response,
"Hi Mike,
Thanks so much for taking the time to answer my letter, and in such a courteous manner.

Here's some information that may be helpful to you:
We have no local police in Peach Bottom Township-- when called, they are sent from the barracks in Dallastown, Pa.* They are often not aware of township zoning and** property laws, and what is public and private.* (They do their best, I think)* The area called Susquehanna Trails, which is bordered by Trails Rd and Muddy Creek
on its northern edge, consists of 2,000 acres and* was privately developed in the* early 60's.* Roads into and out of the "Trails" were then and remain the responsibility of individual home and lot owners.* As a homeowner, I have to provide access through my road to my immediate neighbors (so they can reach their homes) and of course to emergency vehicles.* It is legal for me to gate my property,-- e.g. my stretch of* both Trails and Deepdale Rds.-- as long as I provide keys to adjacent home/lot owners, the Fire Dept, etc. Up to this point I have chosen not to do that;* but. the* portions of Trails Rd and Deepdale Road* that cross my property are private;* uninvited visitors are trespassing. ** I* do tell* everyone that they are welcome to pass through my property on foot to enjoy the beauty of the stream.

Here is the name of the zoning and "legal" officer for Peach Bottom Township:* Michelle Poole.* Her headquarters are at the Peach Bottom Township Office on West Broad Street Extended near Delta. (West Broad is the eastern continuation of 851) * She knows all the township laws, property rights, and road access rights. She is always there on Monday mornings.* I will gladly go with you to meet with her;* we can talk to the police together, if you like.* I"m sure whatever they said to you was with the best of intentions, but it was completely incorrect.** If you remember any of their names, I will write to them and correct this misinformation.

By the way, I don't live on East Trails;* I live right at the juncture of Trails and Deepdale. (Some maps show it as Midvale.)* This is pretty much the center point of Trails Rd;* in fact, I think it swtiches from East Trails to West Trails at Deepdale. * My cabin is* quite close to the river and is the one with the green screened porch.* It is true that there is one homeowner over on West Trails that doesn't mind the jeep traffic.* (He's a nice guy.)* By all means, ride on HIS property as much as you like.* There's another woman to the east of me who is simply afraid to confront* trespassers.

I do want to acknowledge that the amount of trash on Trails Rd has been greatly reduced over the last ten years.* (I've lived here for 22 years.)** I believe the organized clubs are in large part responsible for this improvement.* And it is good to hear that your group is** not going into the river, and discouraging others from doing so.*

This part of my letter* was written a bit later:
On my way into town this morning, I stopped at the township office.* Ms.* Poole was out doing inspections, but I left a message for her to call me.* I will get you a written statement* that Trails Rd (and other roads in Susquehanna Trails ) are private roads.* Or, as I said, I'm happy to meet with you and her, or with you and the Pa. State Police.* I DO NOT LIKE TO CALL THE POLICE ON ANYONE.* But I have done so several times, when car bodies were left beside Trails Rd or massive amounts of trash were dumped.* If you've* been coming to Trails Rd since 1992, you'll remember the derelict cars.* I am the one who paid to have them hauled away!

Again, I really appreciate your quick and courteous response.* Please feel free to call me if you would like:* 410-952-9934.* (I also have a home and office in Baltimore.)* My work involves phone calls, so if the line is busy, please leave a good time for me to call you back.

I regret giving you information that I fear, in the long run, will be disappointing to you.* As I said in my first letter, I wish there were more public spaces for* young people to take jeeps and ATVs.

Sincerely,"

Hmmm Sounds like we need to get more info. If I am not mistaken isn't this the woman that used to put boards with nails in the mudpit and stuff like that. I remember hearing about someone trying to gate it off and the state made that person take the gate down. I am not saying this woman is lieing but I think we need to check her facts. What she is saying does not sound accurate as every map and gps I have looked at still shows it as a public road. I also remember reading in a few different places that it is still an unmaintained public rd. I do think we need more than the once source she is stateing as this could be a friend of her's. I find it hard to beleive what she is saying. As many times before that a few home owners tried to stop everyone from going down there and failed I am inclined to disagree. After 20 years if it was not legal I am sure it would have been shut down. What the real shame is is that its her neighbor's that are doing the most damage down there leaving trash and crap. The one's from this forum that I know of that go down there and admittedly by her have been cleaning up the place and trying to work with the homeowners to make them happy. The state police would be the best ones to ask in my opinion since they are the ones that would show up to run us out if it really is illegal to be back there. If work is not busy today I will try to call them later and ask about it. If anyone wants me to not do that please let me know. I will wait until after noon to call if I am able to today.

[sixfoot9psu]

My cousin is a state cop in york/lancaster and I had talked to him about trails rd recently and he didn't say anything about it being illegal...he just warned me to carry a gun with me and said he's never gone down there off duty...if it were illegal he would have definitely told me...that lady said dallastown police are the ones that would respond? Well my other cousin is a cop there so I could ask him too. But in the trails rd area it is the policy usually that when the state stops maintaining a rd and it gets too bad, that the rd is rezoned and given back to it's previous owner aka whoever lives down there...so there could be some truth to her statements. I know this bc there was a similar rd down there that I used for fishing and they just closed it this year and gave the land to the homeowners...however, they spent a day blockading the rd with dirt, rocks, and barbed wire so that it's clear that it's no longer public

[mikeg576]

Call the state police and see what they say. I also thnk we need to contact the woman in the zoning dept. the more info the better.

[Siva283]

Originally Posted by sixfoot9psu

My cousin is a state cop in york/lancaster and I had talked to him about trails rd recently and he didn't say anything about it being illegal...he just warned me to carry a gun with me and said he's never gone down there off duty...if it were illegal he would have definitely told me...that lady said dallastown police are the ones that would respond? Well my other cousin is a cop there so I could ask him too. But in the trails rd area it is the policy usually that when the state stops maintaining a rd and it gets too bad, that the rd is rezoned and given back to it's previous owner aka whoever lives down there...so there could be some truth to her statements. I know this bc there was a similar rd down there that I used for fishing and they just closed it this year and gave the land to the homeowners...however, they spent a day blockading the rd with dirt, rocks, and barbed wire so that it's clear that it's no longer public

You should ask him. We should all ask as many different people as we can and compare notes. Personally I think this woman is full of it and will say anything to try to keep us out of there. Anyone can put a sign up they mean nothing unless the state puts them up. I agree we should talk to the woman she mention but that woman may be a friend of hers and willing to sat anything she ask so I would not go off of her alone. I know in MD atleast in baltimore where I used to live we were required to keep the road clean that was in front of our house. We were responsible for it. They would maintain the asphalt and concrete but we had to keep it cleaned and the grass along it mowed. That didnt make it my private land. That seems to be what she is claiming.

[KevKaos]

I find it interesting that she found you (MikeG) on a vintage Jeep forum. I would think that with as many Jeeps that go down there sporting JEEP FORUM.COM stickers on them, that would be the first place you would look if you wanted to make contact.

Not exactly sure the point I'm trying to make there, but just sayin'.

Last year I heard there was a piece of Trails Rd property that was selling for like $6k. I wish now I had bought that beatch so I could say "well, I'm a property owner so you have to give me and my friends right of way". hehehe

[KevKaos]

Originally Posted by mikeg576

The road is posted with yellow diamond shaped signs that say "private road"; and most people enter on East Trails, which also has a stop sign that says "residents only".

I'm a bit confused on the description of Trails Rd in the paragraph above as compared to Google maps. On Google maps, the end of Trails Rd that slices off from the main road like a V is labeled as WEST Trails Rd. The other end, which most consider the tougher end and runs along side the little stream that feeds the waterfall is labeled as EAST Trails Rd. Maybe Google Maps has it wrong because it seems like they should be reversed, unless EAST Trails Rd is called that because it carries you east and WEST Trails rd is called that because it carries you west. (????) Anyway, the end with all the signs is labeled WEST Trails Rd, which does not jibe with Google maps. The interesting thing is that the GOOGLE MAPS even shows Trails Rd. It does not really show the middle road that connects to Trails just above the rock garden. That is interesting as well. And stranger still, that unamed road is smooth enough for a west coast lowrider to drive on. Just one of those things to make you say HMMMMMMM.

Anyway, nowadays I just drive in the "tougher" side along the stream. The guy who lives there is very nice and I have spoken to him at length.