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Unread 10-28-2014, 01:53 PM   #1
sirhk100
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Land use meetings that YOU should attend!

The final review for the BLM's RMP is coming up over the next few weeks. Currently, it's shutting down A TON of land to recreate on eventhough the meetings we attended back in '10 and '11 were very pro offroad access. We spoke, we made a voice, it was not heard.

The "racers" are making a push to attend both the Henderson and the LV meetings at 6pm so we're there in force with a noticable attendance. I'm sure ANYONE pro-offroad would be more then welcomed as well.




Quote:
THIS IS FOR ANYONE WHO CARES TO HAVE ANY KIND OF FUTURE RECREATION IN OUR DESERTS & PUBLIC LANDS IN SOUTHERN NEVADA!!!
PLEASE MAKE TIME TO MAKE YOUR VOICE HEARD AS THIS IS OUR LAST STAND TO KEEP "OUR LAND" OPEN TO PUBLIC USE!!!

Here are the dates that the RMP (Range Management Plan) meetings will take place .

Las Vegas –As part of the draft Resource Management Plan (RMP) and draft environmental impact statement (EIS) for the Las Vegas and Pahrump Field Offices, the Bureau of Land Management will host five public meetings the first two weeks of November.
November 3 – Laughlin Library, 2840 South Needles Hwy, Laughlin.
November 5 – James I. Gibson Library, 100 W. Lake Mead Parkway, Henderson.
November 6 – Amargosa Valley Community Center, 821 E. Farm Road, Amargosa Valley.
November 12 – Las Vegas Library, 833 Las Vegas Blvd North, Las Vegas.
November 13– Bob Rudd Community Center, 150 N State Route (Highway) 160, Pahrump.
All meetings will have same format. The public meetings will be held from 3 - 7 p.m. and will be an open house format where participants can ask questions and visit various resource stations, with formal presentations at 3:15 p.m., 4:15 p.m., 5:15 p.m., and 6:15 p.m. Court reporters and comment forms will be available for submission of public comments.
If you want to see what this is about and want to see the maps of what is about to change, it's all right here. It may or may not affect you now but loosing any offroad space whether it's where you recreate or not should be a concern...

https://www.blm.gov/epl-front-office...+field+offices


I plan to be at both meetings as far as nothing unforeseen pops up.

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Unread 11-03-2014, 05:22 AM   #2
JPrich
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Wear your TPF shirt and make sure that everything you say is x2 for me too!
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Unread 11-03-2014, 09:07 AM   #3
sirhk100
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Hoping my work meetings wed afternoon don't go too late!!! I'll make the VEgas one 100% for sure though.
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Unread 11-03-2014, 10:05 AM   #4
JPrich
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I'm going to do the usual letter/email writing thing too as the comment period is actually open through January I think. Anyway, after the election I am going to reach out to some contacts and see if I can connect some people. I don't know how feasible it is or likely it would be but I think Kenny Freeman's proposition to push to make the Jean area an open OHV area is probably the best hope there is to save that area. Between environmental issues and solar development, that chunk out there is going to keep getting smaller and smaller.
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Unread 11-11-2014, 10:53 PM   #5
sirhk100
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I'll be shocked if I see any of you at the meeting tomorrow night in all honesty but... Some info. We want alternative 1.

Here's the other plans in short... Washes in clark county will be illegal to drive in. All of them. Any trails not designated trails will be illegal. In other words, most of our crawler sections are about to become illegal unless they become a designated trail. Do you really think that's going to happen? If there's 2 trails heading to the same location, one will become off limits. Which one? The rougher road less traveled that most of us probably would want as our trail will be the one that becomes illegal. Nelson Hills could become bike and ATV only depending which alternative is chosen other then the main roads. In other words, the waterfalls, those will very likely become illegal to wheel.

This is legit, it's not just affecting us racers. Any of you that probably put your jeep into 4wd, depending which plan is chosen, you may be loosing our trails. Oh wait, there's more... Logandale... Apex... Yeah, designated signed trails only. How many of your favorite spots there are actually designated routes? Do you really think they're going to become a designated route?

Attend tomorrow night's meeting at 6pm. If you get there, there's a chance you'll be able to grab a *****in orange T-shirt that says "it's public's land, not BLM's". I got one tonight to wear to tomorrow night's meeting. The address is up top, it's across the street from cashman field. The comment period is open for the next couple months but attend in person, see the maps, see the affect this is going to potentially have on YOU!!! You like your jeep? You want to actually use your jeep? You really should speak up... You can read the details but good luck... Or you can attend a meeting and see for yourself without all the legal jargon what they're about to take from us if we don't speak up.

BTW, BLM told us last week that if 5000 people say "we want alternative 1 because I like offroading in the areas that the others close." Those 5000 comments will be viewed as just a single concern. Each comment has to be individual... Form letters won't work.

I'll post a link here in the next few days to submit written comment but it would be awesome to see some of you guys at the meeting tomorrow night! Heck, even if you can't make it at 6 when the racer group is showing up... Go anytime during the open session!!!
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Unread 11-12-2014, 04:05 AM   #6
JPrich
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Thanks for going to that. I really wish I could attend as well. RMPs are like 10 year plans so if this thing goes down badly it will have a significant impact for a long time.
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Unread 11-12-2014, 11:24 AM   #7
sirhk100
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Plagerizing what JPrich wrote elsewhere for ease...


In addition to the above mentioned contacts, I strongly recommend folks use the link below to contact Congressman Joe Heck's office regarding this issue. The Primm/Jean area is in Heck's district. He is now a 3 term GOP rep, Army reserve Doc with combat tours, etc. Even if you aren't in Heck's district, the area in question is.

Let Congressman Heck's office know that you're unhappy with the BLMs proposals and proposed restrictions on public access to governement land.

https://heck.house.gov/serving-you/help-federal-agency








The meeting I attended last night, the people with the most research and knowledge on this topic feel that direct to Heck is the best source for comments. But along with that, here's some info on contacting BLM as well.


Comments must be submitted by January 7, 2015. It is important that OHV enthusiasts get involved in the designation process by contacting BLM staff. Comments may be submitted: online; by email: sndo_rmp_revision@blm.gov; by fax: 7025155023; or by mail: BLM Southern Nevada District Office, Las Vegas/Pahrump Field Offices Draft RMP/Draft EIS, 4701 N. Torrey Pines Drive, Las Vegas, NV 89130.
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Unread 11-12-2014, 07:38 PM   #8
Warboar_21
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Wish I would have been home for this meeting. Even though they ignore you regardless of how many letters and how many people attend the meetings.

As a hunter I have watched them close down a lot of land to anything but foot travel. I Have attended several meetings in the past and they sit and listen to you and will nod in agreement. Then they close down hunting areas, post signs up that restrict any type of motor vehicle or even the use of a game cart. They could really care less what we as citizens think. We are losing the use of our lands due to liberal agendas to keep us out. What really needs to happen is clean out the BLM and DNR of all the liberals and put in people who have sense.
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Unread 11-12-2014, 09:32 PM   #9
sirhk100
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I don't really feel too different from you warboar in all honesty. The one thing though I will say is I went thru this same process when I was living in AZ and amazingly, the outcome actually was pretty positive. I also though feel the Az. BLM was much more in tune with the conservative type lifestyle/hobbies if you stereotype a bit with that statement... LOL





I want to wait and digest what we saw and asked and got answered a bit as well as read thru the pamphlet they gave out and possibly look over the plans a bit before I comment a ton more.

Good to see you there though bonez!!! Great turn out though in general at the last session at least! TON of truck/buggy racers, decent amount of bike guys too. Bones could've been solo for the crawler crowd with my contribution or there could've been a ton for all I know plain dressed, without logos or club affiliation gear it's hard to tell who's at the meetings supporting what hobby/agenda.

Bones, on my way home it's been driving me crazy. Do you remember Chris' reply when I asked from BLM's shoes what's broken/wrong with alternative 1 which is our current setup? I remember all the other details and answers to the questions I asked but can't for the life of me remember that one. Did he really give anything substantial to what the problems currently are?

Wish I'd taken some notes...


Bonez, your thoughts? It's been all me with quotes and what not in here so far and obviously there's some interest in the topic even if you couldn't attend which in all honesty, really wasn't a huge deal. You DO NEED TO COMMENT THOUGH!!!! I'll throw out my 2 cents once I've done a bit more research and I'm still definitely in favor of alternative 1 as I've mentioned numerous times above but I want to give a little more time to digest and read up a bit more before explaining my reasoning behind that decision rather then just saying dude, trust me, you want alternative 1!!! LOL
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Unread 11-13-2014, 12:02 AM   #10
andy02
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I really wanted to be there for this but I didn't get out of work until 6. Either way, my letter writing campaign will be going into full swing here shortly. It is about time I start researching the whole thing so I can make the best argument possible.
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Unread 11-13-2014, 07:00 AM   #11
JPrich
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warboar_21 View Post
Wish I would have been home for this meeting. Even though they ignore you regardless of how many letters and how many people attend the meetings.

As a hunter I have watched them close down a lot of land to anything but foot travel. I Have attended several meetings in the past and they sit and listen to you and will nod in agreement. Then they close down hunting areas, post signs up that restrict any type of motor vehicle or even the use of a game cart. They could really care less what we as citizens think. We are losing the use of our lands due to liberal agendas to keep us out. What really needs to happen is clean out the BLM and DNR of all the liberals and put in people who have sense.
I get these sentiments and I understand how people get to the point where they feel like their opinion doesn't matter but I think the problem is less about "others" than we like to think. It's not just about the liberals. It's about the process, and how we as members of whatever community we are a part of participate in the process.

Without getting in to the hunting access piece which I really don't know much about, it is my opinion that the reason the OHV community has consistently lost these battles for 30+ years is because of how we fight. The bottom line here is the "liberals" or whomever you view the other side as, are better at this than we are and they are more commited to it.

The vast majority of the OHV communnity (not all, I'm generalizing) are the type of folks who get on the internet and express outrage and anger, then head back in to their garage to work on their toys. Sometimes we might get really really mad and even fire off a letter or two, but then we head back to our garage.

The people involved with and representing environmental groups, energy development, etc play this game "all in" and they play it infintely better than we do. While we are complaining on the internet and writing a few letters, they are visiting elected officials, pooling their money in to advocacy groups, etc. By and large we just don't do that sort of thing.

There are over 1 million people in the Las Vegas valley. If 5,000 people comment against the current BLM plan, WE feel like we've made a huge show of force. But at the end of the day, that 5,000 is a tiny ripple in the sea of Vegas people. We're fighting a tank with a knife and we're losing every time.

The bottom line is the groups we are "losing" too are much better at working within the political process than we are. And you can feel like the whole process is b.s., but it's still the process and the only way we EVER win is if we play the game the same way.

Just my personal opinion.
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Unread 11-13-2014, 08:39 AM   #12
B0nez
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warboar_21 View Post
Wish I would have been home for this meeting. Even though they ignore you regardless of how many letters and how many people attend the meetings.

As a hunter I have watched them close down a lot of land to anything but foot travel. I Have attended several meetings in the past and they sit and listen to you and will nod in agreement. Then they close down hunting areas, post signs up that restrict any type of motor vehicle or even the use of a game cart. They could really care less what we as citizens think. We are losing the use of our lands due to liberal agendas to keep us out. What really needs to happen is clean out the BLM and DNR of all the liberals and put in people who have sense.
This was the sentiment my Dad gave me last night when I tried to talk him into coming with me to the meeting. Yeah, I agree it seems like an exercise in futility, but on the other hand, I don't feel comfortable just sitting back and watching someone else dictate to me how my freedoms are going to be limited without me taking an opportunity to tell them how I really feel.
Too many people before us have fought too hard to give us what we have today, I don't want it taken from us without at least letting them know that I don't agree. Someone on another board said it best when they applied the quote about the only way for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sirhk100 View Post
Good to see you there though bonez!!! Great turn out though in general at the last session at least! TON of truck/buggy racers, decent amount of bike guys too. Bones could've been solo for the crawler crowd with my contribution or there could've been a ton for all I know plain dressed, without logos or club affiliation gear it's hard to tell who's at the meetings supporting what hobby/agenda.

Bones, on my way home it's been driving me crazy. Do you remember Chris' reply when I asked from BLM's shoes what's broken/wrong with alternative 1 which is our current setup? I remember all the other details and answers to the questions I asked but can't for the life of me remember that one. Did he really give anything substantial to what the problems currently are?

Wish I'd taken some notes...


Bonez, your thoughts? It's been all me with quotes and what not in here so far and obviously there's some interest in the topic even if you couldn't attend which in all honesty, really wasn't a huge deal. You DO NEED TO COMMENT THOUGH!!!! I'll throw out my 2 cents once I've done a bit more research and I'm still definitely in favor of alternative 1 as I've mentioned numerous times above but I want to give a little more time to digest and read up a bit more before explaining my reasoning behind that decision rather then just saying dude, trust me, you want alternative 1!!! LOL
Chris, the BLM guy that is the point of contact for off-road recreation, etc. said that the BLM's main concern with the "Alternative 1" (I.e. Leaving things as is) is that there are many conflicting regulations and standards between those that enforce the existing regulations and the regulations themselves. He also said that there is a lot more ability for those 5%'ers (his term for those off-roaders that are disrespectful, leave trash, damage natural resources, etc.) to damage even more with Alternative 1.

My initial thought about all this is the same attitude I have toward additional firearm regulations... it doesn't matter how many rules you make, those that break the rules won't care either way and the only people negatively impacted are the law abiding citizens so NO, I don't want any more regulations than we already have.
The BLM spokespeople are doing a great job of "selling" Alternative 3, which on the surface sounds awesome by opening up more areas to us, but in the long term could be exponentially more restrictive. It is what I called a "blank check" for the BLM because if we sign off on it now thinking it will give us more, they could use this option to restrict us further and further, though they will say that they are open to creating new trails etc.

I am Pro-Alternative 1 all day long and cannot encourage everyone [interested in off-roading, shooting, etc.] enough the importance and value of submitting their comments before 1/7/15. Why? Because the BLM is willing to listen to our reasoning.. They are not interested in form letters or petitions, they want real, sincere, personalized commentary why Alternative 1 should be considered. This is our chance to keep stuff open, if we don't take action, we have no room to complain about the loss of our freedoms.
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Unread 11-13-2014, 09:09 AM   #13
JPrich
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I appreciate everyone who makes an effort, no matter how futile it may seem. I'm not really the polarizing kind of guy. I try hard to see things from all angles. I personally don't think all the BLM folks are the great Satan's we sometimes make them out to be. There are some within the org that are actually supportive of OHV users. But as an organization they have to balance a lot of competing interests and there is no way they win. As long as these areas stay open, they will get hammered by environmental groups. They close stuff, we *****. It's not as black and white a business as it would seem.

In my perfect world as part of a multi pronged approach to fighting this battle, I'd love to see more off road groups get together and do things like clean ups, etc. It's unfair, but that 5% tend to define who "we" are thanks to the efforts of those who oppose us and I think it's up to us to change that perception. I look at organizations like Tread Lightly that have had great successes in keeping land open for recreation access and they've done it by portraying themselves as equally concerned about protection of the land, resources, etc. I think following that lead and making visible, proactive efforts to support those kinds of things would really help take away some of the negative ammo the 5% provide.
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Unread 11-18-2014, 01:17 PM   #14
sirhk100
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Been a bit hectic lately but finally circling back around to this a little bit. For anyone following here's a bit more info with real images... First off... The meeting last week that we attended, literally standing room only.





Now for the good stuff. 2 pictures of the maps.





No joke, I'm colorblind so forgive me but... In the map above, what I'm calling the dark blue is labeled as "limited to existing roads, trails and dry washes" where the lighter blue is "limited to designated routes". That map is basically what we currently have and follow as far as land access goes for offroad recreation.


This next map though is the BLM's "preferred" alternative.





Notice the difference, there no long is any "limited to existing roads, trails and dry washes". Most of those areas have been converted to "limited to designated routes".


Now here's where it gets interesting... What are the "limited designated routes" in those areas? Where are those maps so we can see what we're getting? Their answer... Well that's part of the trail management part of the process and is done later. We first need to choose an alternative and then once we've chosen, we'll start mapping out the designated routes.


So wait... Let's think about this... That means it could be AMAZING!!!! Every spot in the desert a tire has ever left a track arguably could be determined as a "designated route" and become legal. On the other hand, they could call out 20 miles of a single graded road, call that the "designated route" and make everything else off limits. Now granted, that's your 2 VERY extreme ends and the reality is, it's going to fall somewhere in the middle. But... Is your favorite trail going to become a "designated route"? Who knows... It's not decided yet what is a route and what isn't. This is where Chad's "Blank check" comment comes into play. If BLM get's their preferred plan, simply being a trail or wash does not make it legal anymore. BLM has to actually consider it a numbered/labeled route on a future map for it to be legal.


There's other flaws but that right there is my biggest complaint. They want us to make a choice now without the "designated routes" being available to see what we're actually getting if we support their preferred alternative. Who in their right mind would support that? You don't know what you're actually going to be getting by supporting this!
The other 2 alternatives are VERY similar only one has more ACEC which are enviromental concern areas that are closed for offroad travel and the other remaining plan has more land set aside for development. Neither of those allow for speed events to be permitted. The preferred BLM plan still allows for speed events (races) to be permitted.


So there's a bit more real world info as to what we're up against for deciding right now. Comments are accepted till Jan 7th, I still haven't submitted mine but when I do I'll post up what I wrote... Remember though, comments have to be original and thoughtful.
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