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Unread 09-05-2011, 07:44 PM   #976
davidsonlaw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Powrjunkey View Post
If you check the federal web site it explains that the firearm laws are covered under the state laws of the federal lands because state laws vary widely. Congress passed the bill allowing concealed carry on all federal lands if you have the permit the state in which you are in. No concealed carry anywhere in California for example, but everywhere in Nevada is ok. Also Nevada is an open carry state so you are covered there too.
You're referring to Section 512 of Public Law 111-24. In stating this, you need to be a bit more careful than you have been. This law does not affect all "public lands." In fact, it only applies to "units of the National Park System and the National Wildlife Refuge System." Looking at southern Nevada, this only pertains to the Desert Wildlife Refuge and the Lake Mead National Rec Area. This law does not apply to Forest Service or BLM lands. Furthermore, the NPS and NWS are almost uniformly interpreting this law to say that you can have a gun, but it's still illegal to shoot it, except in situations where hunting is specifically allowed. There is nothing in the law passed by congress to contradict this. Earlier, specific regulations regarding the Red Rock National Conservation Area, which is a unit managed by the BLM, were discussed. This law would have no effect on those rules.

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Unread 09-05-2011, 07:49 PM   #977
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You are correct, the law does not make it legal for target shooting nor hunting unless permitted, however, just as in urban areas, if you discharge a firearm in self defense there will be no charges filed for shooting. If you discharge a firearm for any other reason than self defense(of yourself or family member) you will be charged for illegal discharge of a firearm. Because Nevada is the "home state" of the park, it is covered under nevada's open carry laws.
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Unread 09-05-2011, 07:52 PM   #978
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Also, we are not an open carry state, we simply dont have any laws against open carry.
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Unread 09-05-2011, 07:58 PM   #979
Powrjunkey
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Check this link for open carry info.http://www.nsrpa.us/legal/nevlocal.html
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Unread 09-05-2011, 08:01 PM   #980
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Originally Posted by Powrjunkey View Post
You are correct, the law does not make it legal for target shooting nor hunting unless permitted, however, just as in urban areas, if you discharge a firearm in self defense there will be no charges filed for shooting. If you discharge a firearm for any other reason than self defense(of yourself or family member) you will be charged for illegal discharge of a firearm. Because Nevada is the "home state" of the park, it is covered under nevada's open carry laws.
You, my friend, are playing awfully fast and loose with the legal advice. People do get charged for self-defense shootings all the time. Sometimes they even go to jail for it. Whether you or I agree with that outcome is pretty irrelevant, in particular to those that have had hand cuffs slapped on them. Do you know the circumstances that would constitute a valid legal defense to breaking the prohibition against discharging your firearm? It's not so cut and dried as you are making it out to be.
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Unread 09-05-2011, 08:05 PM   #981
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Don't get me wrong here guys, I in no way am advocating illegal shooting or hunting. I simply am grateful that I can carry my firearm legally in Nevada for self defense. However improbable the case may be that I will ever need to use it lethally, I have needed it before. I was hiking on Frenchman mountain in the spring with my leashed dog. Another dog was unleashed with owner nowhere visible. The other dog aggressively charged me and my dog. When it was about 50yards away, I fired a warning shot into the ground between us. The dog stopped charging and went away. I called lvmpd immediately and reported the discharge. The dispatcher confirmed no "hit" and thanked me for calling. They told me I did everything correctly and legally. If I had pepper spray, the dog would have been too close and possibly injured.
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Unread 09-05-2011, 08:10 PM   #982
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For one to be cleared on self defense discharge, threat of loss of life or severe injury must be established. If you shoot someone for just being aggressive, you will be charged. You have to exhaust all other options for escape or avoidance first. You must be genuinely afraid for your life or severe injury. That's why if you carry, you must understand the laws and be responsible. People need to understand that one cannot just shoot someone because they are yelling insults or talking trash. If they are aggressive with a weapon and there's no avoiding confrontation, a firearm could be useful.
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Unread 09-05-2011, 08:22 PM   #983
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...When it was about 50yards away, I fired a warning shot into the ground between us...
50 yards is awfully long for a warning shot, isn't it?
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Unread 09-05-2011, 08:24 PM   #984
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Also, not at all disputing you. If you felt threatened, of course, defend yourself. Again, it just seems like 50 yards is a long way off to feel threatened. A lot can happen in that 50 yards. Like the owner recalling his dog.
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Unread 09-05-2011, 08:41 PM   #985
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If you compare high school kids running the 40yd in 5-6 seconds, a dog running can cover that in 3-4 seconds, 50yds is pretty close. Also, the owner was not visible within 200-300 yds, and the dog wandered around for another voue of minutes before the owners called it back. Animals are too unpredictable with strangers to trust. I felt threatened, and my outcome was the best one available to me in that situation. No lethal force used to defuse the situation, no physical injury to me, or either dog. Pepper spray would open me to vet bills.
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Unread 09-05-2011, 08:47 PM   #986
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Originally Posted by Powrjunkey View Post
For one to be cleared on self defense discharge, threat of loss of life or severe injury must be established. If you shoot someone for just being aggressive, you will be charged. You have to exhaust all other options for escape or avoidance first. You must be genuinely afraid for your life or severe injury. That's why if you carry, you must understand the laws and be responsible. People need to understand that one cannot just shoot someone because they are yelling insults or talking trash. If they are aggressive with a weapon and there's no avoiding confrontation, a firearm could be useful.
Again, more misstatements of the law. If you shoot someone, in self defense or otherwise, you should expect that you will be arrested and charged with some level of homicide. If you don't, so much the better for you. Once you are arrested, someone working in the DA's office will decide whether or not to institute a criminal prosecution. There's all sorts of factors that come into play here, but in an ideal world you will be prosecuted if your actions don't fall within the standards set forth in the state statute. Your understanding of the state statutes are irrelevant.

If you get charged, and if you kill someone it's likely, then you will be required to prove that it was self defense. The state doesn't have to prove that you acted in self defense, you will have to go in front of a jury and prove you had no other choice. It doesn't matter if you are genuinely afraid for your life. You must have "reasonable fear." If you're afraid, but a jury finds that you weren't reasonable afraid, hello homicide conviction.

To be more specific, in order to assert that your shooting or killing was in self defense, you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that "(1) The danger was so urgent and pressing that, in order to save the personís own life, or to prevent the person from receiving great bodily harm, the killing of the other was absolutely necessary; and (2) The person killed was the assailant, or that the slayer had really, and in good faith, endeavored to decline any further struggle before the mortal blow was given." This means a lot of things, including a duty to try and retreat.

Don't misunderstand me. I own guns. I carry guns. I shoot guns. I'm also a lawyer. I wouldn't at all be worried about shooting at a mountain lion that was looking at me the wrong way, but shooting at a person will get you sent to prison unless you have no other choice, and the situations where you have no other choice are extremely rare.

Please pardon me jumping all over this, but the lawyer in me hates it when I hear people giving legal advice that could get people into trouble, and the blanket statement of "you're ok if its self defense" is so fraught with difficulties and misunderstandings that I couldn't leave it alone.
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Unread 09-05-2011, 09:02 PM   #987
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Again, I agree with your statements. I am probably not being clear enough in my responses. I am in no way trying to provide legal advise. I stated in one of my other posts that one must exhaust all non lethal options for escape or defusing of the situation before deciding to use lethal force. Additionally, I suggested that before anyone decides to carry, they receive the proper training and understand the liability issues they open themselves up to. As far as charges go, it depends totally on the situation the officers see when they arrive. We could discuss the "ifs and what abouts" forever, but each situation is unique. Mine with the dog was justified per lvmpd dispatch, and while she was not an officer, she has extensive prior experience. I am not trying to give the impression that it is ok to carry a gun and shoot someone because they are threatening to beat you up. I'm saying that if someone attacks me with a knife, gun, bar, rocks, or any other lethal weapon, and I have no escape, I'm going to defend myself. There are so many variables with this argument, and people need to know that. If a small girl threatens me with a stick, I'm not going to shoot her, but if a hells angels type is threatening me with a stick, it may be different.
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Unread 09-05-2011, 09:20 PM   #988
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If I came across a bear at 50 yards, it would scare me, but I would still hold my fire until it was necessary.

I just think 50 yards is a bit far to reasonably feel a real threat, but if the dog scared you, do what you gotta do I guess.

All of this is just opinion, of course. I'm not a lawyer and definitely not a police operator.
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Unread 09-05-2011, 09:21 PM   #989
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I just reread that and I think it may have come across as more sarcastic than it should have. My apologies.
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Unread 09-05-2011, 09:25 PM   #990
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Also, people need to understand that self defense is a giant gray line and what is acceptable for one person will get another prosecuted. If I feel that I am in real mortal danger, and I kill someone to protect myself or my wife or daughter, I will proudly defend my actions and if a jury finds me guilty, I will be able to spell well knowing that I saved the lives of myself and family. I understand that use of deadly force is a decision not to be used lightly and I can tell you that it took me many years before I felt mature enough to trust myself with carrying a firearm. That's where maturity and accurate self assessment is ultimately important. I know there are people that think that they are covered if in a fist fight, but truth is they are not. They need to understand what mortal danger means. It doesn't mean a bloody nose or fat lip. It can include broken bones up to and including death. If one is defending themselves and cannot escape, and they receive a broken bone, and the attack continues they can generally expect to be authorized for deadly force. I cannot stress this enough, you are right, you must be sure that you will die if and before you pull that trigger!!!
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