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Unread 03-02-2013, 02:10 PM   #61
slickrocksteve
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I got a reply on my request about the Edith E cabin. Basically, they don't want to let folks save this place unless we take a class in archeaology resuration, and then can only do stuff to their standards, which means no new or even period age wood can be added.
This means a lot of our historical, and stil useful stuff gets vandalized and removed by either the scroungers, or the BLM.

excerpts;.....

ns Regarding Repairing and Maintaining old Miner's Cabin
Friday, March 1, 2013 6:35 PM
From:
"Blythe, Ashley" <ablythe@blm.gov>
Add sender to Contacts
To:
"Mojavedave" <mojavedave1@yahoo.com>
Cc:
"scitron@sbcglobal.net" <scitron@sbcglobal.net>, "hinlodesertrunners@yahoo.com" <hinlodesertrunners@yahoo.com>
Message contains attachments
1 File (36KB)

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Hi Dave -
My apologies for the delayed response - I have been out of the office. Thank you for your message as I am always glad to hear from people who are interested in saving our cultural resources. I am also constantly on the lookout for volunteers, and it sounds like you may have some folks who are willing to do so. I would like to sign you up as official volunteers if you are still interested after this message!

The majority of the structures people seem to be attracted to and want to help preserve fall into the category of "historic" and are therefore protected by a number of laws. As you allude, the AAC program has created a lot of problems for the BLM, especially given the regulatory constraints we are required to abide by in order to do any sort of repair or maintenance to historic structures.

I have been tasked with doing formal archaeological and historic architectural recordation and evaluation for inclusion on the National Register of Historic Places for all of the standing structures on BLM lands, particularly those which were part of the AAC program. Unfortunately, if you have been watching the news, the funding for a project of that magnitude will not be coming my way any time soon. I can hope for the best, and hopefully not lose any more buildings to fire or vandals this fiscal year.

Let me address your questions...

First, am I able to simply do this and head forward?
Volunteers who are interested in the historic structures have been asked to maintain the "status quo" for right now. That means to remove any modern trash from the site, and if a door or window has fallen off, it can be nailed back up using nails from the site. No new materials can be brought in, even period appropriate materials. The structures need to be professionally documented in their current state prior to making any repairs, especially those that involve the removal or addition of materials.

All of the buildings formerly part of the AAC program are currently considered to be historic cultural resources potentially eligible for listing on the National Register of Historic Places - they are protected by a "bubble," so to speak, of laws and regulations. Besides historical significance (i.e. associated with a famous person, event, or period in history), these structures must also retain integrity (i.e. location, setting, design, material, workmanship, feeling, and association). For every change to the structure, the integrity is compromised - at a certain point, it can no longer be considered eligible for listing. If a site is determined to be not eligible for listing on the National Register of Historic Places, the BLM field manager has to determine if the structures poses a threat to human health and safety. I am sure you can guess what some of the consequences of that can be - including removal of the structure. I really do not want that to happen, ever, if I can do something about it!

Any reports of sorts that I must fill out or supporting information and/or documentation required on my behalf?
If you decide to go out to Edith E, or any site in the El Pasos or on BLM lands to do a clean up as I have described above, I do appreciate an email. If you take a camera with you, before and after photos are greatly appreciated. I am attaching a form you can fill out and send back to me when you are done. Please let me know on the form where you identify some major needs to the structure. That way, I can begin the process of documenting damage and suggested repairs.

If you or any members of your group are interested in becoming Historic Site Stewards and volunteers for the BLM, let me know. We ask folks who are interested in becoming sites stewards to take a two-day course hosted by the Society for California Archaeology...graduates become California Archaeological Site Stewards and are assigned a site to regularly visit and monitor for changes or damage. These are also the people I will call on when I am able to start doing recordation and repairs at some of the structures. You can find out more about it here: http://cassp.org/

Were these posted by the BLM in an effort to still at this point simply allow visitors to make repairs?
Where were these notices posted?

Please let me know if you have any more questions. I appreciate your interest in our historic structures!
Thanks,
Ashley


On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 10:55 AM, Mojavedave <mojavedave1@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hi Ms. Blythe,

My name is Dave and I have a relatively small group of desert enthusiasts who have been venturing out into the El Pasos for 16 years now. We have unofficially made repairs and major cleanups to one of the cabins in Bonanza Gulch many years ago. Another group later took on those efforts and as of just this last weekend, the cabin still looked really good for its age and vandalism seems to have been held at bay for quite some time. However, when my group did so several years ago, it was "un"-official. I wish to do the same thing at the Edith E. Cabin in Goler Gulch. Only I wish to do so properly and abiding by whatever guidelines are set forth by the BLM. I know much of the history of this area and truly appreciate the historical value these landmarks represent. I wish to do what I can to keep the Edith E. from the same fate that the cabins and out buildings in Goler down at the "flats" suffered. I know that the Edith E. is circa 1930s and the visible "siding" as it were, is redwood. I have period materials I feel are quite appropriate for making repairs to this cabin. My question(s) is/are this...First, am I able to simply do this and head forward? Do you/BLM representatives need to view the repairs? Any reports of sorts that I must fill out or supporting information and/or documentation required on my behalf? I will be happy to oblige with these items if necessary. Again, I have frequented this area for 16 years now annually each Feb. and many other various trips throughout the year as well. I have seen vandalism, disrespect, trash, etc. I have also seen with other cabins when respect is demenstrated, a frequently and respectfully visited cabin is virtually left alone with respect to vandalism and the like. I have read quite a bit recently of the 1989?-2005 AAC Program and it's simply fading or being let go in 2005 with a study by the BLM of the effects, both positive and negative on the cabins under the AAC during it's term as well as the Stewardship Program apparently now in place (though I know little of it's fundementals/function). However, over this last weekend, I encountered in two locations, the usual "first come first served-treat it with respect-pack it in/pack it out" sort of postings from the BLM with the same information the BLM posted in the past during the AAC. These two postings were nearly new! Were these posted by the BLM in an effort to still at this point simply allow visitors to make repairs? I ask because when reading about the 2005-2007 study regarding the AAC program, it was apparently broken into three tiers regarding the level of repairs made to the cabins...1~quite well with ALL period materials, 2~basically tolerable with mostly period materials, and finally 3~pretty lousy job where folks basically used whatever they had to make a party house(which, incidently upsets me to no end!). So, what can I do? I really look forward to your feedback and any information that will help me in making PROPER repairs and maintaining the Edith E. cabin. Meanwhile, My group and myself will be out to the Edith E this April or May for a simple cleanup.

Please point me in the right direction and again, thank you so very much in advance for your assistance,
Dave Franz
HI N LO DESERT RUNNERS
ANTELOPE VALLEY, CA.





--
Ashley A. Blythe
Archaeologist
BLM California Cultural Resources Data Steward
BLM Ridgecrest Field Office
300 S. Richmond Road
Ridgecrest, CA 93555
760-384-5424
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[IMG]ns Regarding Repairing and Maintaining old Miner's Cabin Friday, March 1, 2013 6:35 PM From: "Blythe, Ashley" <ablythe@blm.gov> Add sender to Contacts To: "Mojavedave" <mojavedave1@yahoo.com> Cc: "scitron@sbcglobal.net" <scitron@sbcglobal.net>, "hinlodesertrunners@yahoo.com" <hinlodesertrunners@yahoo.com> Message contains attachments 1 File (36KB) ReportTemplate.dotReportTemplate.dot Hi Dave - My apologies for the delayed response - I have been out of the office. Thank you for your message as I am always glad to hear from people who are interested in saving our cultural resources. I am also constantly on the lookout for volunteers, and it sounds like you may have some folks who are willing to do so. I would like to sign you up as official volunteers if you are still interested after this message! The majority of the structures people seem to be attracted to and want to help preserve fall into the category of "historic" and are therefore protected by a number of laws. As you allude, the AAC program has created a lot of problems for the BLM, especially given the regulatory constraints we are required to abide by in order to do any sort of repair or maintenance to historic structures. I have been tasked with doing formal archaeological and historic architectural recordation and evaluation for inclusion on the National Register of Historic Places for all of the standing structures on BLM lands, particularly those which were part of the AAC program. Unfortunately, if you have been watching the news, the funding for a project of that magnitude will not be coming my way any time soon. I can hope for the best, and hopefully not lose any more buildings to fire or vandals this fiscal year. Let me address your questions... First, am I able to simply do this and head forward? Volunteers who are interested in the historic structures have been asked to maintain the "status quo" for right now. That means to remove any modern trash from the site, and if a door or window has fallen off, it can be nailed back up using nails from the site. No new materials can be brought in, even period appropriate materials. The structures need to be professionally documented in their current state prior to making any repairs, especially those that involve the removal or addition of materials. All of the buildings formerly part of the AAC program are currently considered to be historic cultural resources potentially eligible for listing on the National Register of Historic Places - they are protected by a "bubble," so to speak, of laws and regulations. Besides historical significance (i.e. associated with a famous person, event, or period in history), these structures must also retain integrity (i.e. location, setting, design, material, workmanship, feeling, and association). For every change to the structure, the integrity is compromised - at a certain point, it can no longer be considered eligible for listing. If a site is determined to be not eligible for listing on the National Register of Historic Places, the BLM field manager has to determine if the structures poses a threat to human health and safety. I am sure you can guess what some of the consequences of that can be - including removal of the structure. I really do not want that to happen, ever, if I can do something about it! Any reports of sorts that I must fill out or supporting information and/or documentation required on my behalf? If you decide to go out to Edith E, or any site in the El Pasos or on BLM lands to do a clean up as I have described above, I do appreciate an email. If you take a camera with you, before and after photos are greatly appreciated. I am attaching a form you can fill out and send back to me when you are done. Please let me know on the form where you identify some major needs to the structure. That way, I can begin the process of documenting damage and suggested repairs. If you or any members of your group are interested in becoming Historic Site Stewards and volunteers for the BLM, let me know. We ask folks who are interested in becoming sites stewards to take a two-day course hosted by the Society for California Archaeology...graduates become California Archaeological Site Stewards and are assigned a site to regularly visit and monitor for changes or damage. These are also the people I will call on when I am able to start doing recordation and repairs at some of the structures. You can find out more about it here: http://cassp.org/ Were these posted by the BLM in an effort to still at this point simply allow visitors to make repairs? Where were these notices posted? Please let me know if you have any more questions. I appreciate your interest in our historic structures! Thanks, Ashley On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 10:55 AM, Mojavedave <mojavedave1@yahoo.com> wrote: Hi Ms. Blythe, My name is Dave and I have a relatively small group of desert enthusiasts who have been venturing out into the El Pasos for 16 years now. We have unofficially made repairs and major cleanups to one of the cabins in Bonanza Gulch many years ago. Another group later took on those efforts and as of just this last weekend, the cabin still looked really good for its age and vandalism seems to have been held at bay for quite some time. However, when my group did so several years ago, it was "un"-official. I wish to do the same thing at the Edith E. Cabin in Goler Gulch. Only I wish to do so properly and abiding by whatever guidelines are set forth by the BLM. I know much of the history of this area and truly appreciate the historical value these landmarks represent. I wish to do what I can to keep the Edith E. from the same fate that the cabins and out buildings in Goler down at the "flats" suffered. I know that the Edith E. is circa 1930s and the visible "siding" as it were, is redwood. I have period materials I feel are quite appropriate for making repairs to this cabin. My question(s) is/are this...First, am I able to simply do this and head forward? Do you/BLM representatives need to view the repairs? Any reports of sorts that I must fill out or supporting information and/or documentation required on my behalf? I will be happy to oblige with these items if necessary. Again, I have frequented this area for 16 years now annually each Feb. and many other various trips throughout the year as well. I have seen vandalism, disrespect, trash, etc. I have also seen with other cabins when respect is demenstrated, a frequently and respectfully visited cabin is virtually left alone with respect to vandalism and the like. I have read quite a bit recently of the 1989?-2005 AAC Program and it's simply fading or being let go in 2005 with a study by the BLM of the effects, both positive and negative on the cabins under the AAC during it's term as well as the Stewardship Program apparently now in place (though I know little of it's fundementals/function). However, over this last weekend, I encountered in two locations, the usual "first come first served-treat it with respect-pack it in/pack it out" sort of postings from the BLM with the same information the BLM posted in the past during the AAC. These two postings were nearly new! Were these posted by the BLM in an effort to still at this point simply allow visitors to make repairs? I ask because when reading about the 2005-2007 study regarding the AAC program, it was apparently broken into three tiers regarding the level of repairs made to the cabins...1~quite well with ALL period materials, 2~basically tolerable with mostly period materials, and finally 3~pretty lousy job where folks basically used whatever they had to make a party house(which, incidently upsets me to no end!). So, what can I do? I really look forward to your feedback and any information that will help me in making PROPER repairs and maintaining the Edith E. cabin. Meanwhile, My group and myself will be out to the Edith E this April or May for a simple cleanup. Please point me in the right direction and again, thank you so very much in advance for your assistance, Dave Franz HI N LO DESERT RUNNERS ANTELOPE VALLEY, CA. -- Ashley A. Blythe Archaeologist BLM California Cultural Resources Data Steward BLM Ridgecrest Field Office 300 S. Richmond Road Ridgecrest, CA 93555 760-384-5424 Go to Previous message | Go to Next message | Back to Messages | Full Headers Reply Reply All Forward Forward Mail Search WelcomeInboxNewFoldersMail Options[/IMG]


[IMG]Thank you for the information about the vandalism at Dawson Cabin. I have forwarded it on to our law enforcement staff for follow up. I hope you received my email sent earlier to Dave. Please let me know if you have any additional questions or concerns. Thank you, Ashley On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 2:53 PM, stephen citron <scitron@sbcglobal.net> wrote: MS Blythe; I along with a select few of the folks who respect and wish to help preserve the history and condition of the area, have come to ask if we might be informed about repair, and renewal of this piece of mining district history. As you may be receiving a note from another member of our group named Dave Franz, I wanted to let you be aware Dave is not the only member to wish to preserve our heritage. Mt name is Steve Citron, and have been coming to the mining district, Ricardo, and Red Rock Cyn, since my Father was stationed at China Lake in 1951!!! We are all members of a group called "Hi-N-Low Desert Runners". I have seen the degradation by vandals, and now by people with OHV vehicles, who cart away our artifacts and treasures. Last weekend, February 14th through the 18th, I saw groups of people shooting fireworks, pouring gasoline on the ground, and setting that on fire, boards and timbers pulled from the last standing cabin at the flats of Goler Gulch. ( commonly called the "airstrip area"). We do not wish this kind of irresponsible behaviour to continue, and hope to restore some use of the Edith E, as well as perhaps slow the damage done by Vandals there. My reporting to the Sheriff was not successful last Saturday nite, so it is up to the people who love and care, to take the restoration, and care on their own. Thank you for listening, and if any information can be given me, especially about restoration, and arrested decay, or even a program like the old "Adopt - A - Cabin" program. Steve Citron 17815 Queensglen Ave. Palmdale, CA. 93591 scitron@sbcglobal.net -- Ashley A. Blythe Archaeologist[/IMG]

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Unread 03-02-2013, 03:12 PM   #62
VINCH
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Steve I kind of had a feeling this how it would play out does not mean to stop trying though right. so it sounds like AAC is no longer a viable program. Sounds like BLM is backed into a wall and can no longer endorse AAC too bad they want us to take courses to conform to their way of doing things yet when cabins are not cared for they raze em. GOOD LUCK WITH THIS VENTURE I am able to help when I can how I can
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Unread 03-02-2013, 05:18 PM   #63
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I would disregard the entirety of this email
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Unread 03-04-2013, 09:45 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VINCH View Post
Steve I kind of had a feeling this how it would play out does not mean to stop trying though right. so it sounds like AAC is no longer a viable program. Sounds like BLM is backed into a wall and can no longer endorse AAC too bad they want us to take courses to conform to their way of doing things yet when cabins are not cared for they raze em. GOOD LUCK WITH THIS VENTURE I am able to help when I can how I can

AAC has been a dead program since '05 with a study of it's effects from then til '07, upon which time they changed the stewardship program, more or less. It's simply a bunch of BS earwash. If you become a "steward" of a site, the ONLY thing you may do is perhaps nail back something that has fallen off. Other then that, as a "steward" you are now obligated to report your findings to the BLM. To me this makes you the "Site Police" for them, they will take your data and determine the safety or health hazard of a location.

What it boils down to is if you become a "steward", you become their police so to speak, reporting to them all that you find but are not allowed to do anything positive about it. Steve and I got it straight from the horse's mouth. The rep at BLM stated what her job is and that is that she is responsible for the study and hopeful restoration of some of these locations but fully admits there is absolutely NO funding for this, and likely will be none for quite some time with the current economy, particularly in Ca. Therefore, we can become a steward, watch and report the vandalism, do nothing about it as we aren't allowed to, then once the vandalism has become such that the cabin is now a safety issue, the BLM with this information and findings, will RAZE the dman place. This makes no sense. I did also find out that the latitude with which I hoped I would have filing a claim is not so any longer. These cabins (the Edith E as well) are earmarked for being officially named as Historical Sites, protected as such, but not until declared as such, which admittedly (BLM) won't happen with the current lack of funding. So, with that said, with the fact that if I/we attempt to do the right thing we will be legally obligated to do absolutely nothing but watch it waste away or if filing a claim (what a headache and runaround that has become) because of the future intent of these cabins you're not allowed to do anything either, I say-I wish to simply make some damned repairs to this place, the roof first, and watch it! Just like the "Joni Jack" in Bonanza, Steve, just simply do it!

I am once again, angry.
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Unread 03-04-2013, 10:09 AM   #65
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Dave, I got the same impression from the email.

The only official options seem to become the police of the site, or take photos of your cleaning efforts and forward them to incriminate yourself.

Just go fix the place up. If the vandalizers can do so with impunity, I dont see how fixing the place up is a problem.
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Unread 03-04-2013, 10:10 AM   #66
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Sounds like a case of your damned if you do and your damned if you dont.
I knew filing a claim would be a pita. I also thought that maybe keeping some of these old cabins alive was viable. It is so sad that the Gov is trying to suppress good honest people from trying to keep history alive. The saddest thing is that all the old cabins/shacks will end up like Colorado Camp a foundation with a sign saying what it used to be. The next step will be shutting down more and more of the mountains and deserts. If the BLM had been doing their job correctly to begin with we would not be facing these issues. My grat Great Grandfather outright owned property near the 29 palms area and even went on an expidition with Randall Henderson (original desert magazine) if you have access to any the old magazines his story is November 1938 rope in swim out. in 1963 the BLM outrightly kicked him off his property that was family owned and bought from the Indians razed his building and made the area off limit to anyone

Bottom line and moral the Gov always wins the people always lose

if you cant access the article I mentioned send me a pm I will send you an adobe copy
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Unread 03-04-2013, 01:36 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bananaslug View Post
Dave, I got the same impression from the email.

The only official options seem to become the police of the site, or take photos of your cleaning efforts and forward them to incriminate yourself.

Just go fix the place up. If the vandalizers can do so with impunity, I dont see how fixing the place up is a problem.
the problem is if you get caught you get cited and fined its not like its hidden and nobody goes down the gulch it is pretty active
Wrong is still wrong

The greenies have been out in force taking notes and pics to use in the lawsuit against BLM they (the Greenies) are doing ALL they can to shut down the whole area to any motorized traffic God help us all if they succeed
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Unread 03-04-2013, 03:38 PM   #68
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I love how the tree groups (government, wheelers, and greenies) have the same goal, preservation of the historical sites and are all somehow at odds haha.
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Unread 03-06-2013, 10:31 AM   #69
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At Odds

Quote:
Originally Posted by bananaslug View Post
I love how the tree groups (government, wheelers, and greenies) have the same goal, preservation of the historical sites and are all somehow at odds haha.
True enough indeed.

It's not just at odds, though. It's a bizarre situation that by its own design, shoots itself in its own foot! When the BLM began the AAC, it was a simple idea with nowhere near enough guidance or control and therefore what was to hopefully be a program in which various adventuring parties would clean up and repair (properly) these various locations, instead turned many into party houses. Not all of course, but unfortunately enough in ALL areas of the AAC that forced its nonrenewal of the program in '05. So the BLM put in place a program with NO funds to monitor it, help steer it correctly and NO way to keep the wrong folk out of it! So now, we have some 50% of these various locations gone or nearly gone because of this. Now the greenies want to shut everything down that they possibly can without care for those "good apples", but only considering the "bad" ones~pointing their fingers at the BLM. I agree to some degree that the BLM has not done in the past that which it should have. But, I know funding has never been up to par with the intentions of the BLM. They just recently completed cataloging EVERY remnant/cabin/ruin still visible and tangible in the El Pasos. The suit brought against the BLM by the greenies has not only caused a noticeably larger ranger presence in these hills, not only a larger presence of the greenies themselves taking notes and pictures, etc. to fight against the BLM and get this area closed, but has anyone noticed how much more mining traffic there has been these last two years in particular?! Ask the right miner when visiting the area and they are likely to tell you just how aware of this "suit" they are and that the busier than normal mining is an unannounced collaborative effort to demonstrate the use of this land. This makes an argument against closing the area, at the very least to the degree the greenies want. The BLM, as some in this thread have said, has been completely backed into a corner. The people I have spoken with at the BLM have outlined in great detail to me the laws and regulations and various other amendments thereof, that have been recently put in place and just what state laws are now suddenly in place for the one and only reason of cataloging these locations, determining their historical value, health hazards, feel of its original era, and many many, more factors. Before this took place, there were little enforceable laws that listed these locations specifically in order to blanket cover them in this current protective order. But, as is the way of the BLM (we have seen time and time again), the BLM completely admits there ARE NO FUNDS available for this endeavor and they have NO IDEA when there will be. So, it's completely "status quo". The BLM wants to protect these places with laws and enforcement in a fashion that allows people to visit and experience this heritage. The greenies want to protect it by simply closing the areas in question and not allowing anyone to see and experience these locations (even though by law it's OUR land, public land) without regard to current laws (which as mentioned before donít work anyway). Then you have us, the public, the wheelers, adventurers, miners, campers, hikers and bikers, rock hounds, etc. Each of these personas has their own interest and agenda regarding these areas. What a disaster! With a few vandals and disrespectful types amongst the MOSTLY good off roaders/hikers/rock hounds, etc. its NO FRIGGING WONDER nothing works! The saddest part of all is that now the BLM has laws it can't afford to use or enforce! So, I want to save a cabin, ok, no problem. But first you aren't allowed to touch it! Then you can become a "steward" of the cabin/location, only allowed to police the area! Which comes down to this...you can take their course, become a steward, police the area and report to the BLM how you are forced by law, to simply sit and watch it disappear at the hands of vandals and idiots. But, you cannot do a damned thing about it! Then the BLM (once they are funded buhahaha) will determine using the data reported to them by the STEWARDS (meaning the person or persons doing the BLM job for free) which of these locations are allowed to actually receive repairs and in what manner this is to happen. I can just about promise you that many, I mean many, of these locations will quite simply disappear and fade away because even though there are great people out there right this effing minute at the ready, their laws will not allow it. And by that same design, the very thing it is allegedly in opposition of is the very thing it in itself will actually expedite! It's a three way catch 22 and makes nearly as little sense as just about anything in congress or any other government agency for that matter. Typical I suppose.
It reminds me of some David Allen Coe lyrics..

"...where bikers stare at cowboys who are laughing at the hippies who are praying they'll get outta here alive..."

Saddest part of all I feel is that no matter what anyone does, no matter what anyone says or what laws are or are not in place, no matter how many good folks there are to frequent historical places like this and others, there will ALWAYS be some that just DGAF!

#handstied
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Unread 03-07-2013, 10:51 AM   #70
slickrocksteve
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Just as a caveat.....
IF you do go and repair/reinforce/cleanup any sites, do NOT post anything on a public board.
It will give the ammunition to prosecute you, and the ammunition to close more areas to your access.

Keep all such communication to telephone, or verbal communications.

Yeah, I know I MAY be acting kind of paranoid, but better to not have to explain to the "powers that be".
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Unread 03-07-2013, 10:53 AM   #71
jeff_in_rc
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2004 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
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X 1,000,000 !!
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Unread 03-07-2013, 11:27 AM   #72
mojavedave
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Location: lancaster, california
Posts: 179
So, fellas...we simply enjoy it for what it is!
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