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Unread 07-06-2013, 09:44 PM   #46
jamesnmandy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteOut View Post
They will install it for you. Just bring the VISA
This is the kind of trollish childish behavior we don't need. Thanks for being a positive contributor. Clearly I didn't ask for this response. Grow up.

I rarely come around to post and if this is the kind of help you offer, I'll make it less frequent. Congratulations

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Unread 07-06-2013, 10:08 PM   #47
WhiteOut
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesnmandy View Post
This is the kind of trollish childish behavior we don't need. Thanks for being a positive contributor. Clearly I didn't ask for this response. Grow up.

I rarely come around to post and if this is the kind of help you offer, I'll make it less frequent. Congratulations
The WJ is covered by a customer service campaign. The recall is being extended to the ZJ and KJ models. WJ models will get an inspection, and if there is an aftermarket hitch installed and identified as a hazard, it will be replaced. Installation of hitches where none is present or the installation of a skid would be at the customer's expense.
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Unread 07-06-2013, 11:44 PM   #48
DakMan96
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Originally Posted by new2site View Post
It's not a matter of odds/percentages...THE POINT is ...is that it's a horrible location...quit deflecting that with "how many / odds are"

Also, something else to chew on...goes without saying...but here's an article from a law firm with evidence/records of many of THESE that ruptured / leaked where the people got out....that DID NOT MAKE THE NHTSA list..or the 287 list... so a leak/rupture that was fortunately survived is JUST AS BAD.


From article:
" there have been fires (without fatalities) in these vehicles from rear impact crashes that have, or could have, led to deaths and injuries, and there have been leaks from Grand Cherokee and Liberty gas tanks from rear impact crashes that could have led to fire and death or injury. "
This happened to me as well. I was rear ended by a lady texting and driving and my gas tank ruptured. Obviously it didn't catch fire and explode because I'm still here but still, it is definitely possible. I don't want to catch either for just sharing a story, so please don't attack me for sharing this
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Unread 07-06-2013, 11:53 PM   #49
cykaaro
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Well, this was an entertaining read. Maybe I'll run through the middle of town screaming 'the sky is falling the sky is falling'. I don't get what all the paranoia is. The WJ was safe for when it was made, and from what I've read, better safety wise than some other SUV's of the same time period. It is unfortunately when someone looses their life in a car accident, but that doesn't mean necessarily a vehicle is inherently unsafe.

If there were thousands of WJ's that caught fire from a simple rear-end accident, then maybe it would warrant thinking there is a problem. But that's not the case. As we've all been reading there's 51 unfortunately accidents how many vehicles made? According to WJjeeps.com over 3million GC's have been made with the ZJ and WJ models. The liberty in the US alone shows as sales of 982,605. So we're now pushing over 4 million vehicles in North America alone, and everything is hinged on 51 specific accidents. 51 vs. 4,000,000+

And how about this statistic from US Department of Homeland Security and US Fire Administration. "From 2004 to 2006, an estimated 258,500 highway vehicle (automobiles, vans, trucks) fires occurred each year. These highway vehicle fires account for 16 percent of fires responded to by fire departments across the Nation."
In their findings:
■■ Approximately one in six fires is a highway vehicle fire. This does not include the tens of thousands of fire department responses to highway vehicle accident sites.
■■ Unintentionally started fires and the failure of equipment are the leading causes of highway vehicle fires.
■■ Eighty-four percent of highway vehicle fires occur in passenger vehicles.
■■ Sixty-two percent of highway vehicle fires and 34 percent of fatal highway vehicle fires originate in the engine area of the vehicle.
■■ Where a contributing factor is noted, the leading factor contributing to the ignition of highway vehicle fires is mechanical failures (47 percent).
■■ Insulation around electrical wiring (28 percent) and flammable liquids in the engine area (21 percent) are the items first ignited in highway vehicle fires.
■■ Fifty-seven percent of fatal vehicle fires are the result of a collision.

So again I ask, what all the hoopla is? You buys your tickets, you takes your chances. It's called life people. Waking up every day and getting through the day is a risk. Walking across the street is a risk. Getting behind the wheel of ANY vehicle is a risk, and being on the road with any number of bad/careless/should never have a license is a risk. Let's all put layers of bubble wrap around our vehicles, where full helmet pads and mouthguards whenever we leave the house. Welcome to the world of having everything perfectly and over the top safe so no one has to have an ounce of common sense or consequences to their stupidity. Accidents, which are really collisions as almost all ARE preventable. I know all too well.

I've had 3 collisions, two ending in write-offs due to the stupidity of others. I've been on fire, and I've shattered my leg. There's much more to worry about than the off chance of being rear ended and my tank exploding. I have a hitch I added to A) be able to tow and B) some one hits me it's the first thing they are going to get nailed on as I leave the tongue in all the time for that very reason and I've done it to every jeep I've owned. Also, I'm well aware of what's around me when I drive and someone is too close, I leave more room in front of me. I feel much more unsafe in a small car than I ever do driving a solidly built jeep. If it's such a worry of the design, sell it and get yourself a smart car or a prius.

OK, back to your previously scheduled thread. I'm going back to my beer.
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Unread 07-07-2013, 12:13 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DakMan96 View Post
This happened to me as well. I was rear ended by a lady texting and driving and my gas tank ruptured. Obviously it didn't catch fire and explode because I'm still here but still, it is definitely possible. I don't want to catch either for just sharing a story, so please don't attack me for sharing this
Why should you be attacked for what happened to you? and it's good nothing happened to you. It's not that such a thing isn't possible to happen, but so are so many other things. Under most conditions one would be fine. I've seen the back end actually caved in on a WJ, where the bumper is almost to the back seat and the gas tank remained intact. Just the luck of the draw and how things crumple on both vehicles, what the other vehicle is, and how it impacts where. I rolled my XJ and the first thing they were concerned about was it catching fire. Almost all of the vehicles I've seen at the wreckers that have burned up (actually 2 were liberty's) were all due to something going in the engine compartment, probably due to an electrical problem.

I don't know how many vehicles I've seen being worked on that the engine is just one big oily mess just waiting for a good spark to catch fire. Guy I work with had his cat clogged and exhaust manifold bright red. If his engine was all oily and dirty, his car would have gone up in flames. There's just too many variables to worry about what if and what could be.

Bottom line is any collision has the potential to kill someone in one way or another. The bigger issue is the person who's responsible for it due to their stupidity/negligence/lack of common sense, which in your case she nailed all three! I've seen cars that were ripped apart so bad they don't look like they were ever a vehicle. I've seen side impacts where the side is half way through the car. The bigger issue should be not so much let's bubble wrap everything and everybody, not that safety should be ignored, but with but put blame where blame is due. Bad drivers.
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Unread 07-07-2013, 12:45 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DakMan96 View Post
This happened to me as well. I was rear ended by a lady texting and driving and my gas tank ruptured. Obviously it didn't catch fire and explode because I'm still here but still, it is definitely possible. I don't want to catch either for just sharing a story, so please don't attack me for sharing this

How fast do you think she was going?

Were you at a complete stop...or going slower than her?
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Unread 07-07-2013, 01:35 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by new2site View Post
It's not a matter of odds/percentages...THE POINT is ...is that it's a horrible location...quit deflecting that with "how many / odds are"

Also, something else to chew on...goes without saying...but here's an article from a law firm with evidence/records of many of THESE that ruptured / leaked where the people got out....that DID NOT MAKE THE NHTSA list..or the 287 list... so a leak/rupture that was fortunately survived is JUST AS BAD.


From article:
" there have been fires (without fatalities) in these vehicles from rear impact crashes that have, or could have, led to deaths and injuries, and there have been leaks from Grand Cherokee and Liberty gas tanks from rear impact crashes that could have led to fire and death or injury. "
You act as if this is the only vehicle on the road that can have a fuel leak in an accident.. trust me many different vehicles with many different have caught fire in accidents and had ruptured fuel tanks in collisions. again your numbers are incorrect as stated in the other thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by new2site View Post
Hmmm....I started the thread about solutions...how is that stirring the pot?
And then I responded to the "better chance of getting hit by lightning" mentality...(which was put out to me in harsh tone)....what was wrong with that...am I supposed to be silent on that?

I guess if you have a different viewpoint then the majority here and want to come up with a real solution in a freeway speed impact than a hitch you get threatened with ostracizing. (P.S. The last victim had a hitch..in a WJ too.)

Like I stated earlier the ONLY reason I posted to this thread was in a knee-jerk reaction to so & so referring to some of us as "idiots"..we don't take kindly to be called "idiots"...would you??

I only know of Ford and Jeep/Dodge who put their tank in the back... just curious who else did ?
The difference in viewpoints is not the issue here, many common sense and federally recommended remedies were mentioned in your last thread and you purposely avoided discussion on those replies. Also corrections to the numbers you listed and explanations of those numbers were also conveniently overlooked by you and you even continued to quote the incorrect information. you chose constantly to avoid the actual real solutions and numbers on the issue and resulted to pity name calling in both places just to stir the pot further. You say you wanted to have a real discussion about it but avoided much of the real discussion only to reply to the ones that added more fuel to your fire also you did it in such a way to maximize such burning. If you aren't trolling then what the heck are you doing because its not any of the things you say you were doing.
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Unread 07-07-2013, 02:19 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by jamesnmandy View Post
I think what a lot of people talking about "other vehicles with rear mounted tanks" fail to take into consideration is the rear geometry and bumper height of the WJ compared to the comparison vehicles.

Also what's even more important is the height and geometry of the front of the majority of vehicles that would be rearending a WJ combined with the WJs upturned rear end and prominent tank with no structure to protect it.

Even on level ground with vehicles still, most car front ends will be shoveling under a WJ rear. This become far more prevalent when you consider in most cases the driver of the car would likely have the front suspension bottomed out under emergency braking. When you combine the two I do think the WJ has a much higher propensity to sustain damage including fuel tank rupture. Of course this makes it more prone to a fire event.

I came here as a fellow WJ owner looking for verification of the same thing the OP simply asked. Is my 2001 WJ included in the voluntary recall or not? It appears it is. When convenient for me I plan to ask them to install the skid plate and or hitch which may help since it is usually my daughters and wife who are in it.

I think the people getting all emotional about this need a break. It's really easy to see there is a real increased risk and there is a real compromise that's been offered and nobody's opinion has anything to do with anyone else's decision to pursue or not a remedy.
Nail on the head.

There's arguments for and against, some are emotional, some are logical.

It just seems there's a group of people who get really quite upset and defensive every time this is brought up, and they mob the thread with statistics, opinion and abusive comments toward those who feel concerned. The same few people really make some quite vitriolic digs yet don't seem to receive any warning about their behaviour?

I carry a bunch of safety stuff in my Jeep as I volunteer for the emergency services, am an idiot? I'm just concerned about my safety and others - sorry for that.

It's weird, someone loads up their daily driver like an expedition vehicle, nobody bats an eyelid. Users carry around full survival kits in their trunks for a bit of light wheeling, apathy. A few people show a safety concern following an international news story, complete mania.

Am I paranoid my WJ is going to explode in a rear impact? Not really, but I'm capable of appreciating somebody else might be, and more than happy to allow them to discuss it in a civilised manner.
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Unread 07-07-2013, 02:37 AM   #54
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Ok. This (like the previous locked thread) has got out of hand. I withdrew the idiot comment....but should i have??

Life is a risk..its just how much of a risk you are willing to take. Your brain naturally will tollerate a certain amount of risk. The safer you feel the more risk you will take. Bikers in full leathers with armour and a helmet will take more risks than a rider in a T with no lid.
If you knew that a polished steel spike would shoot out of your steering wheel when you had an accident, rather than an airbag, would you drive a bit slower....I bet you would.
The point is if you are worried about the minute risk then do something about it.....but dont try and tell everyone that we are dangerous risk takers without any care for ourselves or our families we put in the Jeep. They are not as. As you put it being struck by lightening is about as likely.
I dont concider myself a risk taker but would put my family in an unmodded Jeep (gas powered) without a second thought...the risk is tiny...far more likely to die in a roll over type crash.
I ride a motorcycle...I crashed big time a while back and had a seven hour emergency op to save my arm. Are motorcyles dangerous...a bit...do I want them all modded to make them safer....no way Hose! Would I put my son on the back of one...yep! Lifes too short to live like that.
There are bigger things to worry about if you like to worry.
Your have very liberal handgun laws over there (no Im not anti gun...its your country).
I believe that you still dont have to wear a helmet on a motorcycle in most states (even though its been proved time and again that they save lives....even if helmetted riders take more risks). Do you care about those things as much??


Lifes a risk.... live it.
Right. I will not longer take part in non tech descussions on this forum....too many sensitive types that dont like opinions that dont tally with theirs. That should make you happy.
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Unread 07-07-2013, 03:49 AM   #55
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But alfaitalia you and a few others keep throwing your toys out the pram because a tiny handfull of members don't agree with your opinion. The fact that you have resorted to calling other members idiots and are now making a sweeping announcement that you'll no longer wish to take part, only proves how emotionally loaded your viewpoint must be. Why are you so upset about this? Why do you feel the conversation has to be stopped? Dude, it's just a forum thread.

People need to show a bit of decency and accept other peoples feelings both ways, we need to have a discussion, not a debate.

Safety and risk is highly subjective, you can't force your own opinion onto people, and that's all we seem to get in these threads. "It doesn't bother me so it shouldn't bother you" vs "It bothers me so it should bother you" this is inane, counter productive and the tone often makes the forum look appear juvenile. We're better than this - I hope.

People need to understand their own subjectivity isn't fact, regardless of how much logic or reasoning they present.

Just live and let live, let those that want to discuss it discuss it, it does you no harm to turn the other way.

Some people lean toward risk, some people lean away, nobody is right, wrong or an idiot; but we are all adults, so lets start behaving like them.
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Unread 07-07-2013, 06:25 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by MWF View Post
But alfaitalia you and a few others keep throwing your toys out the pram because a tiny handfull of members don't agree with your opinion. The fact that you have resorted to calling other members idiots and are now making a sweeping announcement that you'll no longer wish to take part, only proves how emotionally loaded your viewpoint must be. Why are you so upset about this? Why do you feel the conversation has to be stopped? Dude, it's just a forum thread.

People need to show a bit of decency and accept other peoples feelings both ways, we need to have a discussion, not a debate.

Safety and risk is highly subjective, you can't force your own opinion onto people, and that's all we seem to get in these threads. "It doesn't bother me so it shouldn't bother you" vs "It bothers me so it should bother you" this is inane, counter productive and the tone often makes the forum look appear juvenile. We're better than this - I hope.

People need to understand their own subjectivity isn't fact, regardless of how much logic or reasoning they present.

Just live and let live, let those that want to discuss it discuss it, it does you no harm to turn the other way.

Some people lean toward risk, some people lean away, nobody is right, wrong or an idiot; but we are all adults, so lets start behaving like them.

You hippy.

I can't believe people are that mad about the word "idiot" being used. My five year old son wouldn't care.

I get what you're saying, but this is a public forum. Opinions will always be expressed in the manner of whomever is expressing feels fit to. Some people get on here and seem really upset about not sharing views, have those people ever had an actual argument in their life?

I do agree with you, though. If people want to get all worried about the potential threat of exploding in a rear end collision, then "live and let live." I will do a better job of allowing people to express themselves without telling them why they're wrong. You know, unless that person and I agree.

Can we all stop posting about this in the tech section now? This all belongs in Off Topic. I am to blame for this, as well. I have posted in these threads. I am not saying you're wrong, I am saying we were all wrong. Please no one get offended for what I have said. I'm sorry! I'll mail you an "I'm Sorry" card in the mail, just PM me your address.
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Unread 07-07-2013, 06:45 AM   #57
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True there is no right or wrong, but there needs to be prospective. This is a good example how peoples fears can be let to run amuck. Media in many ways doesn't help either. Just because something CAN happen does mean it WILL happen. I almost got killed in a rollover. I was lucky to walk away. Do I stop driving due to fear? Nope. I hear about vehicles rolling over all the time. So we should change the speed limits and put limiters on cars so no one can drive above 40km/h? Then collisions would be way down, and when there is one, less likely for serious injury and death. But we know that will never happen. People like their being able to speed all the want.

The report by the US Dept of Homeland Security and US Fire Administratrion states, that in the three years, 2004-2006 that there are an estimated 775,500 vehicle fires in the US alone over those three years. Lets just say that's a yearly avg figure. Then from 1993-2007, the effected years, that would then be 3,619,000 vehicle fires for those 14yrs they're saying there's a supposed problem. So do the math. That's 3.6million for ALL VEHICLES that are driven in the US in 14years. So logically then really, what are the chances your WJ is really that unsafe and going to burst into flames just because you get rear-ended? Mathmatically, it shows, not very likely what so ever. There's so much more in the world to worry about than what might happen in some outside chance. There's so many other ways a WJ and any other vehicle can catch fire in an accident.

If you feel your vehicle is unsafe, then it begs to ask, then why do you drive it? Why are you not choosing a different vehicle you feel is much safer like a smart car which is built around a roll cage and can plow into a concrete abutment and you can walk away without problems? If you choose to drive it, and as the recall is stating, put in a trailer hitch if it puts your mind at ease because that's all it really is, the perception that you're at greater risk than every other vehicle on the road you're going to burst into flames on a rear end collision.

84% of those fires are passenger vehicles, so that number now decreases to 3,039,960. A further 62% of that is from the engine compartment. How many of you actually wash and keep clean your engine compartment and make sure electrical connections are clean and wires are good? I actually do as I know most fires are due to an issue in the engine compartment. That now brings it down to 1,155,185 vehicle files in 14yrs of all vehicles on the road that have caught fire other than in the engine compartment. This however still contains any that are caused by electrical or mechanical in origin. But let's use this number.

I don't know how true the 287 jeeps in question that have caught fire are, but let's use it. So in the 14yrs. there was 287 fires. That still leaves 1,154,898 vehicle fires in 14years of all other vehicles on he road. (although the actual numbers would probably be lower as I just used the number for those three years over the 14 admittedly) So seriously. What really are the chances you're going to get hit and your WJ will catch fire? Realistically, it's no more or no less of a risk than millions of other vehicles on the road that have any given model caught fire in an accident. Do you see all other vehicles that have caught fire in a collision being gone after by anyone? Why not? If it makes you feel better throw on a trailer hitch and/or skid plate and call it a day. They are safe vehicles, just like any of the millions of others that were produced in those 14years.

As was said, this whole thing is perception and emotional. not based on facts. Facts show you're not at any greater risk than anyone else on the road.

The main reason I put in a trailer hitch is I'm not worried I'm going to burst into flames. I dont' want some asshat hitting me and damaging the back bumper/rails to the extent I'm going to have my WJ written off as the damage is deemed structural and I have to start all over with another vehicle. I've done that twice now due to others' negligence and I just don't want to go through that again. I've been having all kinds of things I've needed to deal with when my ZJ was perfectly fine. Still would have had it if it were not for someone elses actions. More should be said/done about bad drivers. That's what the risk truly is that causes needless accidents. I've actually seen someone turn left into the side of a vehicle and send it flying across the intersection right in front of me. WTF? THAT'S the real risk. Someone not paying attention to what's around them, and in this case, whats right in front of their face. But what can you do about stupidity? other than be the best driver you can and aware of what's around you, especially what's behind you and how close they are and driving accordingly. Someone tailgates me? I slow down and give myself lots of room to minimize the chance of getting rear ended. How far do you think it takes to brake on the highway doing 120km/h when somenone is a care length or closer behind you?
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Unread 07-07-2013, 07:17 AM   #58
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Unread 07-07-2013, 07:20 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by 99WJ539918 View Post
You hippy.

I can't believe people are that mad about the word "idiot" being used. My five year old son wouldn't care.

I get what you're saying, but this is a public forum. Opinions will always be expressed in the manner of whomever is expressing feels fit to. Some people get on here and seem really upset about not sharing views, have those people ever had an actual argument in their life?

I do agree with you, though. If people want to get all worried about the potential threat of exploding in a rear end collision, then "live and let live." I will do a better job of allowing people to express themselves without telling them why they're wrong. You know, unless that person and I agree.

Can we all stop posting about this in the tech section now? This all belongs in Off Topic. I am to blame for this, as well. I have posted in these threads. I am not saying you're wrong, I am saying we were all wrong. Please no one get offended for what I have said. I'm sorry! I'll mail you an "I'm Sorry" card in the mail, just PM me your address.
I hear you dude, thanks for understanding and putting your thoughts across.

FWIW I'm not mad about alfaitalia calling the majority of people here idiots, it's just hard to respect someone's viewpoint when they drag an argument down to that level.

I'm not sure why, but there's this culture that's festered in the world where everyone has to have a strong opinion and stand by it, even when the facts are very hard to establish or understand. I simply don't see why everything has to be an argument or a debate these days, I don't see why people feel the need to join the team for or against, make everything so black and white.

I see both sides, I agree with points made by both sides, I feel a certain way.
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Unread 07-07-2013, 08:22 AM   #60
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Hey! I resemble that!!
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