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Unread 06-23-2013, 08:38 AM   #1
dcocch
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Mother ****ing Firestone!

Begin Rant...

1.5 years ago I was about to move from TN to GA. I was living in an apartment in TN and I couldn't work on my WJ in the parking lot so I took it to Firestone for a coolant drain and fill. I told them I wanted the HOAT Red fluid and they said, "sounds good, we'll see you in 2 hours." I come back two hours later, pick up the WJ, blast the heat and let it run for 10min in the parking lot to make sure they filled it, everything looked good so I went home.

Fast forward to last week.

I get the COOLANT LOW message on the EVIC so I go home and let it cool and check it. It's sitting right at the FILL line. Out of curiosity I google what brand HOAT fluid Firestone uses and found a thread about someone who went to Firestone and later popped the radiator cover and found green coolant in the system and red in the reservoir. I thought...oh S#&$.

I went outside and guess what I find.... Green motherf'in coolant in my radiator and red in the reservoir. Awesome. No I get to flush it about 5 times and hope that 1.5years didn't do too much damage. The only saving grace is that my wife drives the WJ and she only put on about 7k miles in that 1.5 years.

Endstate: Do NOT go to Firestone for a coolant drain/fill. Do it yourself of go to a Jeep Mechanic!

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Unread 06-23-2013, 08:39 AM   #2
dcocch
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Oh and if it seems like I'm overly pissed off it's because I possibly have a blown headgasket in my YJ and now I find out about the WJ. When it rains it pours....
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Unread 06-23-2013, 08:43 AM   #3
alfaitalia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcocch View Post
Begin Rant...

1.5 years ago I was about to move from TN to GA. I was living in an apartment in TN and I couldn't work on my WJ in the parking lot so I took it to Firestone for a coolant drain and fill. I told them I wanted the HOAT Red fluid and they said, "sounds good, we'll see you in 2 hours." I come back two hours later, pick up the WJ, blast the heat and let it run for 10min in the parking lot to make sure they filled it, everything looked good so I went home.

Fast forward to last week.

I get the COOLANT LOW message on the EVIC so I go home and let it cool and check it. It's sitting right at the FILL line. Out of curiosity I google what brand HOAT fluid Firestone uses and found a thread about someone who went to Firestone and later popped the radiator cover and found green coolant in the system and red in the reservoir. I thought...oh S#&$.

I went outside and guess what I find.... Green motherf'in coolant in my radiator and red in the reservoir. Awesome. No I get to flush it about 5 times and hope that 1.5years didn't do too much damage. The only saving grace is that my wife drives the WJ and she only put on about 7k miles in that 1.5 years.

Endstate: Do NOT go to Firestone for a coolant drain/fill. Do it yourself of go to a Jeep Mechanic!
Wont do any harm at all. The only difference is that the green has a two year life whilst the HOAT has a five year life. Dont believe all the crap about bad things happen if you mix the two...its all BS. Al that happens is you drastically reduce its life. Get it changed out when you can (take it back to Firestone for a free flush and change if I were you) and put HOAT in a worry about it again in five years!
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Unread 06-23-2013, 09:42 AM   #4
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Sounds like they just didn't flush it at all and just topped it off. BTW, color means absolutely nothing. Every kind of coolant is available in every kind of color.
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Unread 06-23-2013, 10:25 AM   #5
dcocch
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I've never heard of a green HOAT coolant, only yellow, red and orange. And just about every link on google that say mixing IAT and HOAT is not good...
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Unread 06-23-2013, 02:19 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by ezflip View Post
Sounds like they just didn't flush it at all and just topped it off. BTW, color means absolutely nothing. Every kind of coolant is available in every kind of color.
It's true that the color is just a dye, but it DOES indicate the chemical composition. It's not a problem to mix brands of coolant as long as they're the same color. Generally not a good idea to mix colors as they're not compatible for the most part. Green is obviously regular antifreeze, orange is GM's Dex-Cool, which is OAT (not HOAT and NOT compatible with HOAT), pink/red is usually HOAT (such as Mopar), but yellow is an exception that could be traditional antifreeze, could be Zerex G-05 (which is HOAT), etc. That's kind of why I try not to use G-05, because it's yellow and there are a lot of yellow coolants.

Do some research, you'll find a ton of people who are of the opinion you can use anything and haven't had any problems, or at least not yet, and a ton of people who strongly believe you shouldn't use anything but HOAT in your Jeep, should never mix colors, etc. I personally just say I don't know for sure, but I do know I accidentally used green antifreeze for a year and a half because I didn't know better, and ended up with corrosion and a blown radiator and thermostat gasket. You'll get a lot of arguments and opinions, but I just don't know for sure. I think there's a decent probability that I can attribute all or some of my cooling system issues to using the wrong coolant and/or mixed color (type) coolants. I only use Mopar HOAT coolant now and that's all I know.
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Unread 06-23-2013, 02:20 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by alfaitalia View Post
Wont do any harm at all. The only difference is that the green has a two year life whilst the HOAT has a five year life. Dont believe all the crap about bad things happen if you mix the two...its all BS. Al that happens is you drastically reduce its life. Get it changed out when you can (take it back to Firestone for a free flush and change if I were you) and put HOAT in a worry about it again in five years!
This is one opinion/school of thought.
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Unread 06-23-2013, 02:28 PM   #8
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Also HOAT I've read wasn't even used until '01 or '02. Before then was the regular ol green coolant.
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Unread 06-23-2013, 02:39 PM   #9
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Quote:
Colored dye is added for leak detection and is not a reliable way of identifying coolant type.
Quote:
HOAT formulations are called hybrid because the additive package contains ingredients from both OAT and conventional formulas and is compatible with both.
http://www.recycool.net/index.php?op...=14:antifreeze
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Unread 06-23-2013, 03:41 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alfaitalia View Post
Wont do any harm at all. The only difference is that the green has a two year life whilst the HOAT has a five year life. Dont believe all the crap about bad things happen if you mix the two...its all BS. Al that happens is you drastically reduce its life. Get it changed out when you can (take it back to Firestone for a free flush and change if I were you) and put HOAT in a worry about it again in five years!
Agreed


Mixing the coolants will not harm the car. People on this forum get so sensitive over this topic its insane.
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Unread 06-24-2013, 09:07 AM   #11
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Seriously, we can't be a little more decent with the thread title? Plenty of civil ways to make your point.
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Unread 06-24-2013, 12:43 PM   #12
dcocch
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Originally Posted by KayCeeJeep View Post
Seriously, we can't be a little more decent with the thread title? Plenty of civil ways to make your point.
For the record, it said "F'in" and JF changed it to **** which looks worse.

And No, I'm still pissed that I paid them around $120 to do something and they didn't do it. I wish I still had the receipt because I remember paying extra for HOAT coolant as opposed to the green stuff.


Anyway, I thoroughly flushed the cooling system and refilled with Zerex G-05 for $35. I will never recommend a Firestone Service Center to anyone, ever.
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Unread 06-24-2013, 01:19 PM   #13
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I'm glad you thoroughly flushed the cooling system and refilled with Zerex G-05. It's too bad Firestone didn't do what was asked. That's frustrating.

Even though you've already resolved the issue, I figured I'd chime in for future users who search through this thread. This is a post I added to the FAQ contribution thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisHager View Post
[snip]

First of all, WJs need HOAT coolant. Many people get along fine with 'the green stuff' but if you want to do it right, go with HOAT. It's only a couple bucks more than the cheap stuff and guarantees proper protection.

Speaking of green coolant, we need to be careful about specifying what colors to use. While colors can be helpful, they don't necessarily mean anything:

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.autoserviceprofessional.com/article/92419/coolant-and-colors-what-are-car-makers-up-to

Despite the rainbow of colors, all antifreeze starts out colorless. Dyes are added to differentiate one brand from another, one formulation from another, and to help us see how much coolant is in that reservoir under the hood. Unfortunately, there is no universal, standardized coolant color code.
Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.caranddriver.com/columns/top-it-up-with-green-or-orange-which-antifreeze

Instead of OAT, most new cars now use a "hybrid" antifreeze that's formulated with both OAT and the silicate inhibitors from green (Japanese hybrids have different inhibitors). It comes in too many colors to pretend this type is color-coded.
As for using HOAT coolant, the main point is corrosion inhibition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.underhoodservice.com/issue/article.aspx?contentid=39651

The addition of silicates increases corrosion protection for aluminum engines, radiators and heater cores, and helps protect the water pump against erosion wear.
And here's a little more about HOAT coolant and our WJs:


4.0

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://wjjeeps.com/service/cooling.htm#DRAIN40

Coolant recommendations and cautions:

The recommended mixture is 50/50 ethylene-glycol and low mineral content water. Never use pure antifreeze. Only Mopar Antifreeze Coolant, 5 Year/100,000 Mile Formula (glycol base coolant with corrosion inhibitors called HOAT) is recommended. This coolant offers the best engine cooling without corrosion when mixed with 50% distilled water.

Antifreeze mixture must always be at least 44%, all climates year round. Maximum protection (-90d) is provided with a 68% mixture protection. If the percentage is lower than 44 percent, engine parts may be eroded by cavitation, and cooling system components may be severely damaged by corrosion.

CAUTION: Mopar Antifreeze/Coolant, 5 Year/100,000 Mile Formula (MS-9769) may not be mixed with any other type of antifreeze. Mixing of coolants other than specified (non-HOAT or other HOAT), may result in engine damage that may not be covered under the new vehicle warranty, and decreased corrosion protection.

CAUTION: Do not use coolant additives that are claimed to improve engine cooling.

4.0L coolant capacity:

1999-2000: 13.0 qts. (including 2.3 qts. for resevoir)
2001-2004: 15.0 qts. (including 1 qt. for resevoir)

4.7

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://wjjeeps.com/service/cooling.htm#DRAIN47

Coolant recommendations and cautions:

The recommended mixture is 50/50 ethylene-glycol and low mineral content water. Never use pure antifreeze. Only Mopar Antifreeze Coolant, 5 Year/100,000 Mile Formula (glycol base coolant with corrosion inhibitors called HOAT) is recommended. This coolant offers the best engine cooling without corrosion when mixed with 50% distilled water.

Antifreeze mixture must always be at least 44%, all climates year round. Maximum protection (-90d) is provided with a 68% mixture protection. If the percentage is lower than 44 percent, engine parts may be eroded by cavitation, and cooling system components may be severely damaged by corrosion.

CAUTION: Mopar Antifreeze/Coolant, 5 Year/100,000 Mile Formula (MS-9769) may not be mixed with any other type of antifreeze. Mixing of coolants other than specified (non-HOAT or other HOAT), may result in engine damage that may not be covered under the new vehicle warranty, and decreased corrosion protection.

CAUTION: Do not use coolant additives that are claimed to improve engine cooling.

4.7L coolant capacity:

1999-2000: 13.0 qts. (including 2.3 qts. for resevoir)
2001-2004: 14.5 qts. (including 1 qt. for resevoir)

HOAT coolant can be purchased from the dealer or can be found at Napa, O'Reilly Auto, Amazon, etc. as Zerex G-05 for about $17/gal.


Now, when it comes to topping off or replacing your coolant, you need to be sure not to mix coolants:


Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.autoserviceprofessional.com/article/92419/Coolant-and-colors-What-are-car-makers-up-to?Page=2

In an older engine that calls for the standard green, adding a coolant with organic acid technology dilutes the concentration of phosphates and silicates making the coolant’s metal protection less effective. In a newer engine that requires OAT or HOAT, adding the old green stuff shortens the coolant protection period.

Regarding flushing your old coolant at home, here's how I go about it with positive results:

1. Drain radiator.
2. Fill radiator with distilled water.
3. Start Jeep (with heater on) and bring to operating temperature (note, if you remove the thermostat, there is no need to bring it to operating temperature since the water will be able to circulate fully) and let the new distilled water circulate for a few minutes.
4. Turn off Jeep.
5. Let cool.
6. Repeat Steps 1-5 multiple times.

Once you've done this over and over, the distilled water should have mixed with and drained most of the old coolant out.

7. Drain the system one final time, add 2 gal of straight HOAT coolant, and top off with distilled water (the capacity for my 04 WJ is 4 gallons. If you can get 2 gallons of coolant in, you are guaranteed to have at least a 50/50 mix).

Also, when draining the radiator, less than 2 gallons comes out. WJJeeps.com states the 04 WJ holds right at 15 qts. (darn close to 4 gal), including the overflow tank. I filled the radiator with the HOAT coolant and added the 'leftovers' to the empty overflow tank. After getting hot and cold a few times, I would imagine the coolant in the overflow tank will be introduced throughout.

Now, keep in mind that the 01-04 cooling system is 15 qts. including 1 qt. for the overflow tank. The 99-00 cooling system is only 13 qts. including 2.3 qts. for the overflow tank. My refill method won't work quite as well for 99-00 unless you can come up with a way to remove more water after your last flush run.

To elaborate on the distilled water, I used it to 'flush' the system. The idea is that eventually the old coolant dilutes to mainly fresh distilled water. If the entire 4 gal system is mainly fresh distilled water, draining out as much water as you can, adding 2 gallons of HOAT coolant, then topping off with more distilled water (only if you were able to drain more than 2 gallons of distilled water from the system) will bring you to about a 50/50 mixture. This 4 gallon capacity includes the overflow tank. I was able to get 2 full gallons of HOAT coolant into my radiator/overflow tank doing the above. I should note that to drain the radiator, I removed the lower radiator hose to speed up the process. By doing this, I was able to get extra old coolant/water out of the system since the hose could empty as well.
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Unread 06-24-2013, 01:26 PM   #14
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I've had quite a few problems with them... when I lowered my last car 2.5 inches they did the alignment on it when I was done. took it back a couple months later after replacing some worn parts and they told me they couldn't do the alignment because it wasn't able to get onto their lift. I went out to talk to the mechanic and he remembered the car and corrected the guy from upfront. On a later visit to check my ac lines for leaks they found one, and said I was all set to go because I was replacing it myself. Left the lot and noticed my engine was letting off large amounts of smoke. pull over to check it and they sprayed green dye all over the engine compartment and never cleaned it up, took it back and made them clean it. had an alignment done after all this was behind me, and they didn't correct the steering wheel which was my main reason for getting the work done. so never again...
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Unread 06-24-2013, 01:56 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KayCeeJeep View Post
Seriously, we can't be a little more decent with the thread title? Plenty of civil ways to make your point.
Dont be so sensitive. Getting ripped off doesn't feel so good !
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