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Unread 06-03-2013, 06:43 PM   #1
ScottsRedJeep
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2001 WJ 
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Atlanta, GA
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Help! Can't get Camshaft Position Sensor back in.

I was having a very minor oil leak from the Camshaft Position Sensor assembly near the oil filter.

So I removed the 10mm bolt and bracket from around the assembly and pulled it out. The o-ring looked to be in good shape so I tried sliding it back in but it stopped about 1/4" from seating.

After much jiggling I can't get it to go all the way back down and seat properly.

Is there a trick to getting it back in?

The first attached pic is an image of the assembly (from the manufacturer's website) and the second pic is of the part as it now sits in my Jeep.

cps-new.jpg   cps.jpg  
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Unread 06-03-2013, 07:59 PM   #2
narnwv
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twist it a wee bit. The spade at the bottom of it isn't lining up properly.
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Unread 06-03-2013, 08:20 PM   #3
ScottsRedJeep
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narnwv View Post
twist it a wee bit. The spade at the bottom of it isn't lining up properly.
Thanks. I could see the spade and had tried a dozen times pushing down then turning it clockwize a tiny bit and trying again. Tried it a few more times and finally hit the sweet spot and it went right in.

However, I test drove it for about 10 minutes and the Jeep sputtered then stalled. Let it sit for a few minutes then 10 minutes later it sputtered then stalled.

There are some new codes showing P0353, P0352, and P1391.

I'm hoping that it's due to the adaptive memory. I'll try clearing the codes and see if the engines performance characteristics get "re-learned".
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Unread 06-04-2013, 02:45 AM   #4
ScottsRedJeep
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After I reset the adaptive memory it now sputters non-stop. Error codes P0351, P0352, P0353, and P1391 are now showing.

Jeep is almost undrivable. Luckily the Jeep dealership is only 5 miles away.
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Unread 06-04-2013, 03:39 AM   #5
billybooster2
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Not sure what engine you have but essentially the timing is set or indexed when youinstall it. If this is a 4.0 the #1 plug wire when at tdc will be around 5 o'clock. The rotor arm will point to 5...

Forum member Dino has a bunch of pics on his site. Google dino jeep or cherokee
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Unread 06-04-2013, 03:49 AM   #6
ScottsRedJeep
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billybooster2 View Post
Not sure what engine you have but essentially the timing is set or indexed when youinstall it. If this is a 4.0 the #1 plug wire when at tdc will be around 5 o'clock. The rotor arm will point to 5...

Forum member Dino has a bunch of pics on his site. Google dino jeep or cherokee
Thanks. Found the site:
http://www.angelfire.com/my/fan/dist_index.html

I didn't think I had to set the timing because I didn't open the sensor. The engine never turned between the time it came off and was put back on. But I'll give it a try.
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2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo 4.0
Never wrecked unless you count the big deer I hit doing 70 on the Interstate.
It's a dozen years old, 160,000 miles with a huge list of needed repairs, but it's still (IMHO) one of the best looking cars on the road.
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Unread 06-05-2013, 02:06 AM   #7
ScottsRedJeep
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Started the Jeep this morning and it drove just fine the 5 miles to the dealership.

I really don't like taking it to the dealership for these type of things because everytime they just want to look at the codes and replace every part related to the code without doing any real diagnostic.

I had to pay a $150 diagnostic fee (which would be deducted from any repairs) and they came back with a $500+ estimate to replace both the Camshaft and the Crankshaft sensor.

I told them that I didn't think those sensors were bad. I asked if they were basing their assumptions on the fact that there was a P1391 code (Intermittent Loss of CMP or CKP) and just wanted to replace both the sensors and hope for a fix, or did they actually diagnose the problem. They assured me that this would fix the problem and came down on the price to $450.

Still a huge chunk of change for two sensors, but I was already out $150 and for "only" $300 more I could be on my way and put this behind me. So two hours later they told me it was done and I tried to drive off the lot, but the EXACT same problem persisted. Sputtering and stalling. They didn't even do a test drive after they replaced the sensors and "fixed" the problem.

So I limped back in and they broght in their "top" mechanic who told me it was now the wiring harness. And I was told that if I paid for the $50 harness that they would do the labor for free. But they didn't have one in stock, so my Jeep is still in the shop until morning when they will put a wiring harness on.

So all in all, I'll wind up paying $550 when all I needed was a $50 part and less than an hour's worth of labor.
__________________
2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo 4.0
Never wrecked unless you count the big deer I hit doing 70 on the Interstate.
It's a dozen years old, 160,000 miles with a huge list of needed repairs, but it's still (IMHO) one of the best looking cars on the road.
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Unread 06-05-2013, 04:54 AM   #8
georged
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There ought to be a law against this . . . .
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Unread 06-05-2013, 05:32 AM   #9
Caelum
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Yea no **** they think they can rip ppl and nothing happened crank and cam are what 30 a piece
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Unread 06-05-2013, 06:33 AM   #10
billybooster2
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Ouch. Ask for your old ones to be replaced. And offer to pay for the new ones. And ask for your labor back through misdiagnosis. Try screaming.
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Unread 06-05-2013, 09:11 AM   #11
KayCeeJeep
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I generally avoid shade tree mechanics so I don't fall into the "I guess and replace parts while you pay for it" ride, sad to see it going on at a dealership.
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Unread 06-08-2013, 02:20 AM   #12
ScottsRedJeep
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Got my Jeep back and it runs just fine except for a transmission slippage problem that has been giving me a headach. They gave me a $1,000.00+ quote to fix it, but I'm going to go elsewhere.

I could not get them to come down on the price. They told me that replacing sensors (and charging for them) is part of the diagnostic process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by billybooster2 View Post
Ouch. Ask for your old ones to be replaced. And offer to pay for the new ones. And ask for your labor back through misdiagnosis. Try screaming.
I should have asked them to save the old parts for me. I've done that before at other places and later proved the parts they replaced were not defective to avoid over-charging.

I think I will go back because I should be able to get back an hours worth of labor cost. It didn't dawn on me at the time, but they came into the waiting room after the diagnositc that I paid for with an estimate that included two additional hours of labor, then came back exactly an hour later saying the work was completed. I just realized that I paid for two hours when it only took one.

But this is also the same dealership that once held my car hostage for a bogus charge a while back.

A few years ago I had a brand new Dodge (just two weeks old) that had been in their service center for a week. When Friday came around and they hadn't fixed the problem. I made such a fuss that they gave me a loaner car for the weekend. When I came back on Monday my car was fixed (which was covered by the warrenty) but they had a $350 mileage charge for the loaner car.

They told me that there was a 45-cent per mile charge. I told them that the loaner agreement I had signed didn't list any mileage charges. They brought out their copy and they had filled in the milage section with "45 cents per mile" AFTER I had signed it. If I had known they wanted 45 cents per mile I would have never taken the loaner.

I showed them my carbon copy where the mileage section was blank, and the service manager told me that it was a mistake on their part, and said that section should have been filled in. The fact that they added it to the agreement, after I had signed it (and without my knowlege), didn't make a difference. I had to pay $350 or I was not getting my car back. He thought that he had leverage by holding my car hostage.

But, it was actually too late for them. My wife had already driven off in the car. Then they threatened to call the police because we took the car before settling the bill (even though they gave us back our keys). I was so mad I actually welcomed the police and thought about what a huge lawsuit I would have if they had me arrested. My father was an attorney so I liked my odds.

Finally, the salesman that had sold me the car two weeks earlier came out and talked some sense into service department.

The last thing the service manager said to me as I left was "I hope you're happy, this will be coming out of my budget".

I vowed never to go back, but it's been many years so I thought I would give them another chance... "Fool me twice, shame on me" I guess.
__________________
2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo 4.0
Never wrecked unless you count the big deer I hit doing 70 on the Interstate.
It's a dozen years old, 160,000 miles with a huge list of needed repairs, but it's still (IMHO) one of the best looking cars on the road.
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Unread 06-08-2013, 02:43 AM   #13
ScottsRedJeep
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Posts: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by KayCeeJeep View Post
I generally avoid shade tree mechanics so I don't fall into the "I guess and replace parts while you pay for it" ride, sad to see it going on at a dealership.
The dealerships generally do have better mechanics. They work on Jeeps day in and day out, have tools and equipment made for Jeeps, and lots of other advantages. I would gladly use the dealership 100% of the time if I felt I could trust them. But when they've lost my trust, I'm willing to take a risk on other repair options.

I think a lot of the problems come from the dealership's service managers. I'm sure that they have quotas, timelines, and deadlines to meet. So it's better for them if an entire transmission is replaced rather than a part inside the transmission. They make more, it saves time on diagnosis, and has lots of advantages for the dealership but not for the customer.

I've generally had really good luck with "non shop" mechanics. Here are just a few examples.

My nephew (who I wish lived closer to me and had more time) diagnosed and fixed my Jeep's radiator problem. GoodYear quoted me $1,200.00 to fix it after I paid them a $97 diagnostic fee. My newphew replaced the $50 radiator fan relay and charged me $30 labor. I did get my $97 back from GoodYear.

Aamco gave me an estimate for $1,500 to replace a transmission on a Mazda that I had a few years ago. A neighbor of mine that's a shade tree mechanic looked at it and told me that the transmission was fine. The problem was actually a worn U-joint on the tansaxle. I bought the $8 part and replaced it myself in 45 minutes.

And many years ago I had an old Chevy S-10 when I was 20-something. I ran out of gas a lot because it had a broken gas gauge. The only way to start it after that was to pour a little gas into the carburator. Like an idiot I either put in too much or spilled some and... you guessed it... caught the engine on fire. It took me 15 minutes to get hold a fire extenguisher. I thought for sure the truck (with 200K+ miles) was a goner. But this guy that owned an auto repair shack (the place was no more than plywood walls and a dirt floor) a block away gave me free towing to his place. He replaced a couple of burned wires, cleaned the chemicals from the fire extengusiher, cleaned the soot, and replaced a melted sensor. The TOTAL charge was 50-bucks. And my truck ran even better than before the fire. I used him for several years after that for this truck and everytime the charge was always around $50.

But I was really lucky with my last trip to Disney. My mini-van's serpentine belt broke and left me and my family stranded, out of town, in Orlando. It was at night so I rolled the dice and found a mobile mechanic on Criagslist who had me back on the road in just over an hour.

Of course I've had my bad luck also. I once used a small auto repair service to fix an oil leak on my Honda. Well, they dropped a screw inside the engine and I had to get the engine replaced. That was a $2,200 mistake.
__________________
2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo 4.0
Never wrecked unless you count the big deer I hit doing 70 on the Interstate.
It's a dozen years old, 160,000 miles with a huge list of needed repairs, but it's still (IMHO) one of the best looking cars on the road.
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Unread 06-08-2013, 09:59 AM   #14
narnwv
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Cross Lanes, WV
Posts: 6,226
Quote:
Originally Posted by billybooster2 View Post
Not sure what engine you have but essentially the timing is set or indexed when youinstall it. If this is a 4.0 the #1 plug wire when at tdc will be around 5 o'clock. The rotor arm will point to 5...

Forum member Dino has a bunch of pics on his site. Google dino jeep or cherokee
Just for others that may stumble upon this thread, there are not plug wires, rotor, or distributor in a WJ 4.0
__________________
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Unread 06-08-2013, 10:03 AM   #15
narnwv
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottsRedJeep View Post
Got my Jeep back and it runs just fine except for a transmission slippage problem that has been giving me a headach. They gave me a $1,000.00+ quote to fix it, but I'm going to go elsewhere.

I could not get them to come down on the price. They told me that replacing sensors (and charging for them) is part of the diagnostic process.



I should have asked them to save the old parts for me. I've done that before at other places and later proved the parts they replaced were not defective to avoid over-charging.

I think I will go back because I should be able to get back an hours worth of labor cost. It didn't dawn on me at the time, but they came into the waiting room after the diagnositc that I paid for with an estimate that included two additional hours of labor, then came back exactly an hour later saying the work was completed. I just realized that I paid for two hours when it only took one.

But this is also the same dealership that once held my car hostage for a bogus charge a while back.

A few years ago I had a brand new Dodge (just two weeks old) that had been in their service center for a week. When Friday came around and they hadn't fixed the problem. I made such a fuss that they gave me a loaner car for the weekend. When I came back on Monday my car was fixed (which was covered by the warrenty) but they had a $350 mileage charge for the loaner car.

They told me that there was a 45-cent per mile charge. I told them that the loaner agreement I had signed didn't list any mileage charges. They brought out their copy and they had filled in the milage section with "45 cents per mile" AFTER I had signed it. If I had known they wanted 45 cents per mile I would have never taken the loaner.

I showed them my carbon copy where the mileage section was blank, and the service manager told me that it was a mistake on their part, and said that section should have been filled in. The fact that they added it to the agreement, after I had signed it (and without my knowlege), didn't make a difference. I had to pay $350 or I was not getting my car back. He thought that he had leverage by holding my car hostage.

But, it was actually too late for them. My wife had already driven off in the car. Then they threatened to call the police because we took the car before settling the bill (even though they gave us back our keys). I was so mad I actually welcomed the police and thought about what a huge lawsuit I would have if they had me arrested. My father was an attorney so I liked my odds.

Finally, the salesman that had sold me the car two weeks earlier came out and talked some sense into service department.

The last thing the service manager said to me as I left was "I hope you're happy, this will be coming out of my budget".

I vowed never to go back, but it's been many years so I thought I would give them another chance... "Fool me twice, shame on me" I guess.
I would've welcomed them to take me to court. Since they added wording to the contract after the fact, it was void at that time. Luckily you had your carbon copy.

I would report it to Dodge, although it probably won't do any good.
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