Heater Core Waterfall vs Blackstone Lab Oil report - JeepForum.com
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 32 Old 10-20-2016, 11:42 PM Thread Starter
sdg3205
Registered User
2001 WJ 
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Surrey
Posts: 1,253
Heater Core Waterfall vs Blackstone Lab Oil report

As I've said before, I've had occasional waterfall at start up for almost a year. Sometimes it sticks around for a month, sometimes it disappears for more than a month.

I've tried everything short of replacing the rad. New cap, burping, new thermostat, burping, an entire system flush, burping, burping on ramps, burping at redline, driving up a mountain etc etc.

Again, no oil in coolant, no coolant in the oil, no steam, no smoke. I even used the double-chamber ("Fail safe") U-view to test for hydro carbons in the cooling system and the upper chamber stayed blue. So i couldn't wrap my head around the inconsistencies with the waterfall phenomenon.

So, for $25 i got my oil analyzed, and...... DRUM ROLL PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!








Inconclusive. See for yourself. There are elements (sodium and potassium) present at very low levels (sodium is actually below average) that could point to coolant in the oil, but the levels are too low to tell. In fact, these elements are also additives in oil, which makes it difficult. Where it gets interesting is that the Mobil 1 I use DOES NOT contain these elements, but prior oils could have, so it could have been the Pennzoil Platinum I ran up until a few months ago, so thats what i need to check next - if pennzoil uses sodium and potassium in their oils. If not, signs would point to coolant which would mean there is a very smaaaaaaaaaall head gasket leak and if so, does that cause the waterfalls? If they do use those elements, i can rule out a HG leak, at least in my situation.

I'll send back another analysis at the END of this oil interval, at which point we can see if those values have remained the same, or go up.

All in all, education if nothing else.

Attached Thumbnails
H85988.jpg  
sdg3205 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 32 Old 10-21-2016, 12:36 AM
alfaitalia
Registered User
2004 WJ 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Bognor
Posts: 6,175
As much burping as you've tried there is only one thing that causes the waterfall sound....and that is air in the system. So if it makes the noise straight after burping (i.e. before any tiny HG leak has time to put more air in the system) then its clear that your technique for burping is incorrect and you are not getting the air out of the coolant circuit. Nothing you hadn't already figured I would guess!

If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got yourself an electrical problem!
alfaitalia is offline  
post #3 of 32 Old 10-21-2016, 12:46 AM Thread Starter
sdg3205
Registered User
2001 WJ 
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Surrey
Posts: 1,253
Quote:
Originally Posted by alfaitalia View Post
As much burping as you've tried there is only one thing that causes the waterfall sound....and that is air in the system. So if it makes the noise straight after burping (i.e. before any tiny HG leak has time to put more air in the system) then its clear that your technique for burping is incorrect and you are not getting the air out of the coolant circuit. Nothing you hadn't already figured I would guess!
Oh yeah. This is a ridiculously easy system to bleed. I also work on cars that require some pretty intense bleeding practices - one car featuring about 40+ ft of cooling system hosing.

No, I know I'm doing the bleeds correctly. I have the FSM. I can bleed it and not have the waterfall for a week. Then it shows up, disappears, re-appears. Bad bleeding practices also doesn't account for why it showed up in the first place, unless I had multiple issues, the first of which i resolved and now another plagues me. It's like the women of mechanical mysteries - can't be solved.
sdg3205 is offline  
 
post #4 of 32 Old 10-21-2016, 10:42 AM
snobrdrkid07
WJ for Life
 
snobrdrkid07's Avatar
2004 WJ 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chesapeake/Blacksburg
Posts: 8,785
Garage
Here is my report for comparison. I wasn't able to get the system to bleed and my final few start ups were starting to be rough and misfiring, assuming coolant in a cylinder(s).

It is going to be torn down, top end, and rebuilt.
Attached Thumbnails
oil report compare.jpg  

~ 04 WJ Overland 4.7 HO | Graphite Metallic | Quadra-Drive | Vari-Locks | Bilstein 4600ís | ADDCO Sway Bar | Powerstick Exhaust | RB1 | SuperChips Tuned | Much More to Come ~

~ 04 WJ Laredo 4.0 | Selec-Trac | MBP | OME HD 3" Lift | JKS TB | IRO Front LCA's and UCA's| Bilstein 5100's | Silent Armor 245/70/17's | Custom Front D.S. | Stillen Rotors/Pads | Tow Package w/ 3.73's | Moog HD Steering | Kenwood eXcelon HU | Alpine Speakers, Amps, and Subs | Bilstein SS | Auxiliary Transmission Cooler | Rock Lights | Light Bars | Lots of Cool Stuff ~

~ 05 Rubicon Unlimited 4.0 | 6-Speed | Dana 44's | Air Lockers | 4.11 Gears | Rock-Trac 241OR T-Case with 4:1 4-Low | OME HD Springs | Bilstein 5100ís | 245/75/16 Kevlar MT/R's on Moabs | Hansen Offroad Steel F/R Bumpers | Warn 9000xi Winch | Edge Performance Chip | Custom CAI | Hella Off-road Lights | Cobra 29 CB | Flash Lights | Recovery Gear | Fire Extinguisher ~

~
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
~
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
~
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
~
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
~
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
~
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
~



-Michael-
snobrdrkid07 is offline  
post #5 of 32 Old 10-21-2016, 10:52 AM Thread Starter
sdg3205
Registered User
2001 WJ 
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Surrey
Posts: 1,253
Nice. Yeah look at the sodium climb!

Just spoke with Blackstone and Pennzoil doesn't add sodium. The oil before that was Mobil 1, so I'm guessing it is coolant. Lets see what my numbers are in a few more months.
sdg3205 is offline  
post #6 of 32 Old 10-22-2016, 12:08 PM
snobrdrkid07
WJ for Life
 
snobrdrkid07's Avatar
2004 WJ 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chesapeake/Blacksburg
Posts: 8,785
Garage
Yeah, I parked it before it got worse. Seemed pretty clear to me.

~ 04 WJ Overland 4.7 HO | Graphite Metallic | Quadra-Drive | Vari-Locks | Bilstein 4600ís | ADDCO Sway Bar | Powerstick Exhaust | RB1 | SuperChips Tuned | Much More to Come ~

~ 04 WJ Laredo 4.0 | Selec-Trac | MBP | OME HD 3" Lift | JKS TB | IRO Front LCA's and UCA's| Bilstein 5100's | Silent Armor 245/70/17's | Custom Front D.S. | Stillen Rotors/Pads | Tow Package w/ 3.73's | Moog HD Steering | Kenwood eXcelon HU | Alpine Speakers, Amps, and Subs | Bilstein SS | Auxiliary Transmission Cooler | Rock Lights | Light Bars | Lots of Cool Stuff ~

~ 05 Rubicon Unlimited 4.0 | 6-Speed | Dana 44's | Air Lockers | 4.11 Gears | Rock-Trac 241OR T-Case with 4:1 4-Low | OME HD Springs | Bilstein 5100ís | 245/75/16 Kevlar MT/R's on Moabs | Hansen Offroad Steel F/R Bumpers | Warn 9000xi Winch | Edge Performance Chip | Custom CAI | Hella Off-road Lights | Cobra 29 CB | Flash Lights | Recovery Gear | Fire Extinguisher ~

~
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
~
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
~
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
~
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
~
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
~
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
~



-Michael-
snobrdrkid07 is offline  
post #7 of 32 Old 12-01-2016, 03:30 PM
snobrdrkid07
WJ for Life
 
snobrdrkid07's Avatar
2004 WJ 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chesapeake/Blacksburg
Posts: 8,785
Garage
Any updates on this?

~ 04 WJ Overland 4.7 HO | Graphite Metallic | Quadra-Drive | Vari-Locks | Bilstein 4600ís | ADDCO Sway Bar | Powerstick Exhaust | RB1 | SuperChips Tuned | Much More to Come ~

~ 04 WJ Laredo 4.0 | Selec-Trac | MBP | OME HD 3" Lift | JKS TB | IRO Front LCA's and UCA's| Bilstein 5100's | Silent Armor 245/70/17's | Custom Front D.S. | Stillen Rotors/Pads | Tow Package w/ 3.73's | Moog HD Steering | Kenwood eXcelon HU | Alpine Speakers, Amps, and Subs | Bilstein SS | Auxiliary Transmission Cooler | Rock Lights | Light Bars | Lots of Cool Stuff ~

~ 05 Rubicon Unlimited 4.0 | 6-Speed | Dana 44's | Air Lockers | 4.11 Gears | Rock-Trac 241OR T-Case with 4:1 4-Low | OME HD Springs | Bilstein 5100ís | 245/75/16 Kevlar MT/R's on Moabs | Hansen Offroad Steel F/R Bumpers | Warn 9000xi Winch | Edge Performance Chip | Custom CAI | Hella Off-road Lights | Cobra 29 CB | Flash Lights | Recovery Gear | Fire Extinguisher ~

~
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
~
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
~
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
~
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
~
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
~
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
~



-Michael-
snobrdrkid07 is offline  
post #8 of 32 Old 12-01-2016, 08:37 PM Thread Starter
sdg3205
Registered User
2001 WJ 
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Surrey
Posts: 1,253
I'm about 1,500 miles away from my next oil change and analysis, so probably nothing until after the holidays. I haven't had the waterfall back in a few days. The jeep doesn't get many miles right now.
sdg3205 is offline  
post #9 of 32 Old 12-02-2016, 09:05 AM
snobrdrkid07
WJ for Life
 
snobrdrkid07's Avatar
2004 WJ 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chesapeake/Blacksburg
Posts: 8,785
Garage
I think I may wait until the next oil report before I do a full teardown...

~ 04 WJ Overland 4.7 HO | Graphite Metallic | Quadra-Drive | Vari-Locks | Bilstein 4600ís | ADDCO Sway Bar | Powerstick Exhaust | RB1 | SuperChips Tuned | Much More to Come ~

~ 04 WJ Laredo 4.0 | Selec-Trac | MBP | OME HD 3" Lift | JKS TB | IRO Front LCA's and UCA's| Bilstein 5100's | Silent Armor 245/70/17's | Custom Front D.S. | Stillen Rotors/Pads | Tow Package w/ 3.73's | Moog HD Steering | Kenwood eXcelon HU | Alpine Speakers, Amps, and Subs | Bilstein SS | Auxiliary Transmission Cooler | Rock Lights | Light Bars | Lots of Cool Stuff ~

~ 05 Rubicon Unlimited 4.0 | 6-Speed | Dana 44's | Air Lockers | 4.11 Gears | Rock-Trac 241OR T-Case with 4:1 4-Low | OME HD Springs | Bilstein 5100ís | 245/75/16 Kevlar MT/R's on Moabs | Hansen Offroad Steel F/R Bumpers | Warn 9000xi Winch | Edge Performance Chip | Custom CAI | Hella Off-road Lights | Cobra 29 CB | Flash Lights | Recovery Gear | Fire Extinguisher ~

~
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
~
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
~
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
~
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
~
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
~
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
~



-Michael-
snobrdrkid07 is offline  
post #10 of 32 Old 12-02-2016, 10:14 AM Thread Starter
sdg3205
Registered User
2001 WJ 
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Surrey
Posts: 1,253
Quote:
Originally Posted by snobrdrkid07 View Post
I think I may wait until the next oil report before I do a full teardown...
Weirdest damn thing isn't it? Get worse for a while, then disappears for a while.

I do not understand the physics behind the waterfall. If combustion gases are filling the system with air, why does the waterfall only occur and remain audible on a cold start? Do the gases push out coolant to the header tank ONLY until the rad cap closes to maintain pressure? Does that pressure prevent further gas ingress while at operating temperature? When cooled, is it that there is less coolant in the system now because of contraction? If so, why hast the overflow tank dumped more back into the system?

If i hear the waterfall on a cold start, the air should move to the rad cap and out to the overflow tank right? So shouldn't i see bubbles in the overflow tank until the system reachers operating temp?
sdg3205 is offline  
post #11 of 32 Old 12-02-2016, 12:13 PM
86cj74.2L
Web Wheeler
 
86cj74.2L's Avatar
2004 WJ 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Stouchsburg, PA
Posts: 11,037
I wouldn't expect air bubbles it's a slow push as the water expands.
86cj74.2L is offline  
post #12 of 32 Old 12-02-2016, 10:29 PM Thread Starter
sdg3205
Registered User
2001 WJ 
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Surrey
Posts: 1,253
I'm going on a drive tomorrow so I was under the jeep doing a visual inspection and checking my diff fluid. I saw this.

If this drain leaks, then it could be releasing cooling pressure more quickly than normal and before the rad cap allowed more coolant back in, but I'm not really loosing coolant. I added a tiny bit tonight for the first time in months, not because it was low. It was just below "full"
Attached Images
 
sdg3205 is offline  
post #13 of 32 Old 12-02-2016, 10:30 PM Thread Starter
sdg3205
Registered User
2001 WJ 
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Surrey
Posts: 1,253
Here's another
Attached Images
 
sdg3205 is offline  
post #14 of 32 Old 12-02-2016, 11:07 PM
86cj74.2L
Web Wheeler
 
86cj74.2L's Avatar
2004 WJ 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Stouchsburg, PA
Posts: 11,037
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdg3205
Here's another
I'm thinking you should fix it. It may be easier to suck air in there instead of pulling coolant through the rad cap and little vent valve.

That's the low point of the rad and crunchies collect there and sometimes foul the gasket when closing the drain valve. It does come all the way out.
86cj74.2L is offline  
post #15 of 32 Old 12-02-2016, 11:14 PM Thread Starter
sdg3205
Registered User
2001 WJ 
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Surrey
Posts: 1,253
Think teflon tape will get the job done?
sdg3205 is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the JeepForum.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid e-mail address for yourself.



Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome