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Unread 08-02-2015, 04:04 AM   #1
PolarWolf
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2004 WJ 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Fryslan, Pothead land. Err, The Netherlands
Posts: 130
CV joint problems

I replaced the rezeppa drive shaft in the front of my WJ with a IRO driveshaft with a CV joint. I couldn't get the angles dialed in like they should, but I ran it anyway. Halfway my trip to Sweden with a bunch of offroading, the rear U-joint on the CV exploded and I was dragged out of the woods (after I removed it on the trail). I got soms parts to rebuild the CV but it never really worked well, so I only used the front driveshaft for offroad (took it off for the road). And that has gotten me through the remainder of the trip.

Back home, I finally pulled the entire shaft apart, and this is what I found. The entire CV is bent. Both the part on the shaft as well as the "H". When I removed the U-joints a lot of needle bearings were b0rk, and I can understand why. Now, I've already ordered a new "H" and a CV revision set, but can the bent bit on the shaft be repaired? Heating it up and bend it back straight, maybe?

I don't like CV joints anymore, so I'm considering a single cardan shaft. Who has used one on their WJ and what'd you think if it?

dsc03757.jpg  
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- '78 CJ, 38/38 Weber carbed 258
- '04 WJ Overland, 4.7HO, 4" IRO
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Unread 08-02-2015, 11:24 AM   #2
Tollmtn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PolarWolf View Post
I replaced the rezeppa drive shaft in the front of my WJ with a IRO driveshaft with a CV joint. I couldn't get the angles dialed in like they should, but I ran it anyway. Halfway my trip to Sweden with a bunch of offroading, the rear U-joint on the CV exploded and I was dragged out of the woods (after I removed it on the trail). I got soms parts to rebuild the CV but it never really worked well, so I only used the front driveshaft for offroad (took it off for the road). And that has gotten me through the remainder of the trip.

Back home, I finally pulled the entire shaft apart, and this is what I found. The entire CV is bent. Both the part on the shaft as well as the "H". When I removed the U-joints a lot of needle bearings were b0rk, and I can understand why. Now, I've already ordered a new "H" and a CV revision set, but can the bent bit on the shaft be repaired? Heating it up and bend it back straight, maybe?

I don't like CV joints anymore, so I'm considering a single cardan shaft. Who has used one on their WJ and what'd you think if it?
Does that CV have any brand markings on it, I want to be sure that I never buy that brand LOL I wonder who makes IROs drive shafts?

Sadly when you bend a machined part it is really difficult and time consuming if you try to bend it back without damaging the machined surfaces and it would be really difficult to get it straight and with run out that is close enough for a part that spins as fast as a driveline. A driveline shop or machine shop would cut the weld and replace the ball stud yoke, that is what I would do.
http://www.dennysdriveshaft.com/c815...tud_yokes.html

C/Vs hold up on the D 60 front on diesel trucks, so I wouldn't give up on C/Vs I would just look for a better quality C/V.

The problem you would have if you wanted to use a single cardan front driveline is you would have to lower the pinion until the pinion flange and the T case flange matched. Then your caster would be way off so you would need to rotate the inner Cs. Even then the driveline might vibrate IF the front T case output is not exactly straight with or parallel with the pinion because you would have a compound angle problem.

There is a method of setting up a single cardan driveline where the angles intersect, but it is usually used in industrial gearbox applications where both ends of the driveshaft is fixed. That driveshaft setup is called "broken back". Studebaker used it for a while in rear drivelines but I think the angle was almost flat. Even then they must have had some difficulties because I believe they had to set/rotate phase off by X amount of degrees. LOL that may be one of the reasons that Studebaker joined the dinos.

If a driveline is used in a broken back configuration the two U flange angles have to be set so the two angles intersect exactly at the center/midpoint. The problem with this for an automotive application is the suspension moves up and down and the slip joint moves in and out so the point where the lines intersect would constantly change so the driveline velocity would not be constant and it would have vibration. And again you could have a compound angle problem.

IMO all the above equals the reason the three different brand 4X4 parked in my yard all came from the factory with double cardan front drivelines
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Unread 08-02-2015, 08:14 PM   #3
YeepinBlue
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That's kind of a funky bend, I don't think you could to heat and rebend it perfectly. Not to mention if you heat it up, it will lose the strength properties as it will be annealed.

The cardan shafts are better in off-road situations, as they are much tougher.

You were saying you had problems getting the angle right... have you thought about getting the longer double cardan?
It's highly recommended since you have the 4 inch lift. Otherwise you will just keep eating the CVs

The double cardan looks like this:


Take a look at this thread: http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f310/...shaft-1482437/
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Unread Yesterday, 01:21 AM   #4
PolarWolf
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Well...the CV that broke is the double-cardan type, and I couldn't get the angles right on that one to start with.

Maybe I'll bite the bullet and order a Tom Woods shaft. I see there's a "double double" cardan axle available too, any thoughts on that?
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Unread Yesterday, 08:25 AM   #5
Tollmtn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PolarWolf View Post
Well...the CV that broke is the double-cardan type, and I couldn't get the angles right on that one to start with.

Maybe I'll bite the bullet and order a Tom Woods shaft. I see there's a "double double" cardan axle available too, any thoughts on that?
My WJ is a 2004 Overland, it came from the factory with a double cardan driveline that ran smooth as glass. I installed an IronRock 4" critical path lift and could not get the front driveline to run without noticeable vibrations. BUT their was a reason for that. The POS stupid one side only caster adjuster did not have enough adjustment so it was bottomed out before the driveline angle could be dialed in. Many people have had the same problem with IROs caster adjuster at 4" of lift. I cut the IRO junk apart and changed the front arms to a design like Claytons or Rough Country long arms with plenty of adjustment, now my front driveline runs smooth as glass again. That might not be your problem but if you can adjust your driveline angle in both directions and not get it to run smooth I suspect the driveline has problems.

Even at 6" or 7" of lift the front drivelines will run smooth with just one DC, the only problem with the taller lifts is you end up at the raw edge of positive caster. Some ambitious guys rotate their inner Cs to get caster numbers back where they should be.
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Unread Yesterday, 09:37 AM   #6
PolarWolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tollmtn View Post
My WJ is a 2004 Overland, it came from the factory with a double cardan driveline that ran smooth as glass. I installed an IronRock 4" critical path lift and could not get the front driveline to run without noticeable vibrations. BUT their was a reason for that. The POS stupid one side only caster adjuster did not have enough adjustment so it was bottomed out before the driveline angle could be dialed in. Many people have had the same problem with IROs caster adjuster at 4" of lift. I cut the IRO junk apart and changed the front arms to a design like Claytons or Rough Country long arms with plenty of adjustment, now my front driveline runs smooth as glass again. That might not be your problem but if you can adjust your driveline angle in both directions and not get it to run smooth I suspect the driveline has problems.

Even at 6" or 7" of lift the front drivelines will run smooth with just one DC, the only problem with the taller lifts is you end up at the raw edge of positive caster. Some ambitious guys rotate their inner Cs to get caster numbers back where they should be.
Same problem, the Iron-Y ran out of adjustment. I can't rotate the pinion up enough for proper CV angles. Now I can go and fix that, have my driveshaft rebuilt and then try again, or just throw that money, time and effort into one of the fancy Woods shafts. It'll be a zero sum game.

And before you mention it, yes, getting a simple drive shaft rebuilt and balanced really does cost a friggen fortune on this side of the pond. It'd be cheaper to import one from the USA
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- '04 WJ Overland, 4.7HO, 4" IRO
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Unread Yesterday, 12:01 PM   #7
Tollmtn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PolarWolf View Post
Same problem, the Iron-Y ran out of adjustment. I can't rotate the pinion up enough for proper CV angles. Now I can go and fix that, have my driveshaft rebuilt and then try again, or just throw that money, time and effort into one of the fancy Woods shafts. It'll be a zero sum game.

And before you mention it, yes, getting a simple drive shaft rebuilt and balanced really does cost a friggen fortune on this side of the pond. It'd be cheaper to import one from the USA

Before you go off the deep end and purchase a double double cardan driveline I would start a thread on that topic and attempt to get some opinions. I recalled a thread actually on exactly the problem you have with the lack of adjustment and changing the front driveline to a double double from another forum, note that it was in 2011, the double double was not a cure.

http://www.jeepsunlimited.com/forums...ation-Problems

This shouldn't be happening with a new lift and new driveline. I believe it is unconscionable on IRO's part to keep selling a front end suspension part that has insufficient adjustment. My IRO arms were built in 2010 = 5 years ago, the caster adjuster problem with 4" lifts probably has existed from day one when ever that was. IMO part of the problem is 90% of the folks have the lifts installed so they do not know the adjustments suck or why the driveline vibrates so the issue is not well known.

On my IRO arms not only did the caster adjuster problem exist then but the quality control was extremely bad, my arms were built 7/8" over length, so even with the length adjustments bottomed out my bump stops were way off. When I posted about the length and adjustment issue IRO instead of quietly fixing the problem so it would not reoccur they attempt to discredit me. Check out this Critical Path alignment thread from 2 years ago. http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f310/...stion-1533330/

Because the arms are radius arms when the same arms are used with 6.5 inches of lift the body end of the arms is 2.5" higher than it is with a 4" lift. That 2.5" difference rotates the pinion up the caster adjuster has enough adjustment to dial in a normal single/double cardan driveline with that (6.5") lift.

All in all the caster adjuster is an engineering fail, it has little adjustment and because it only uses one bolt and one bushing at the top of the differential it eats that bushing and is not as strong as the original design.
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Unread Yesterday, 01:19 PM   #8
PolarWolf
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Posts: 130
I read most of the posts and comments about the IRO caster adjustment (of course after I ordered it), including yours. The three linked design in itself has held up for me sofar, and I even ran half the trip (about 1800km and 7 days of offroading in the forests) with a acceptably vibrating driveshaft at some speeds. Apparently it was enough to wear out one of the U-joints though. The U-joint gave out on the trail while I was trying to get out of a mud hole, so yeah...there was a bit of force on the shaft when it failed, pretty much destroying the CV as it went kaput.

I know the cheaper/better option is probably to get/build me a set of long arms which provide better caster adjustment. I could even try building a new bracket thing for the iron-Y with a different hole/slot pattern to push the pinion upward more. But then I still need a new driveshaft, this one is Fubar. If buying one double-double shaft saves me from totally bastardizing up the IRO frontend to something that might or might not work meanwhile preserving caster to acceptable levels, I'm happy to go that route.

Ironically, the crappy Rezeppa frontend I replaced with the double cardan gave me zero driveline vibrations after lift. Maybe I should put it back in.

I don't know, really. Luckily I've plenty of time to mull it over though. There's no deadline anymore.
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- '78 CJ, 38/38 Weber carbed 258
- '04 WJ Overland, 4.7HO, 4" IRO
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Unread Yesterday, 02:31 PM   #9
Tollmtn
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IRO's Critical Path is not a three link design it has 3 mounting bolts but it is a radius arm design done the cheapest most mickey mouse way possible.

Skain8 is a knowledgable guy, his comments on a double double driveline have merit, see post #6 in this thread about a vibrating double double. http://www.jeepsunlimited.com/forums...ation-Problems

Usually the best way to fix problems is just bite the bullet and do it the right way. You may have noticed the pictures of my IRO fix, I went to the other extreme. Now I have upper arms on both radius arms and full width 2 5/8" poly bushings with 2 9/16" bolts on the differential. When I made up the upper arms I left the IRO arms in place and built the top arm for the passengers side first. Then when it was completed I removed the iron Y cut it apart and built the drivers side. It took me roughly a day working alone to complete the work. I used off the shelf link tabs and brackets plus the bushing and bushing sleeves were off some TJ CAs that I converted from fixed arms to adjustable arms. The flex joints on the upper arm were are the ones off the body end of the IRO arms, I bought some new forged flex joints for the body end. The two forged flex joint cost about $80, I didn't like the races that came with then so it cost another $26 to replace the 4 races. No matter how you go it cost money to make chicken soup out of chicken S LOL, keep us posted on how the driveline saga turns out.




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