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Unread 03-13-2014, 02:33 PM   #46
NDSU_Bison
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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More info on Banks and the VM diesel
http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/1...diesel_engine/

Inside The VM Motori 3.0L V6 Diesel Engine
We Get Inside The First Potential 1/2 Ton Diesel Engine
Text By David Kennedy, Photography by David Kennedy
Diesel Power, August 01, 2012


Read more: http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/1...#ixzz2vsQyrwIR

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Unread 03-13-2014, 04:21 PM   #47
bigbadbru
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1- How does DEF in new diesel engines make a difference in tuning? Is it limiting any performance increase?

Chartx here is the reply from one of my engineers on your question regarding DEF:

"DEF (Diesel Exhaust Fluid) is used as part of the SCR (Selective Catalytic Reduction) system, where the urea-based DEF is used to aid in the 'breaking down' of oxides of nitrogen (NOx) that are a major combustion byproduct of the diesel compression-ignition process.

High levels of NOx are generally created by high in-cylinder flame front temperatures, a side effect of high cylinder pressure which is most common under high load (high power). When we tune an engine, we're always watching NOx (as well as HC, CO, and CO2) emissions, and we often times will find that there is a finite limit to the extra power that can be created without substantially increasing the emissions. Careful handling (not shutting off, but proper calibration for higher output) of the turbocharger, EGR, and injection control systems allows us to make more power cleanly, without requiring a much higher rate of urea injection to compensate for increased emissions."

I think the gist of it is if done properly you can still get performace and mileage gains with the emissions equipment in place. It just takes more time, patience, and knowledge. I hope this answers your question.

Regards,
Chris
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Unread 03-13-2014, 04:38 PM   #48
bigbadbru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diverb View Post
Chris from BANKS, will be able to provide you better idea on when it will be available for sale, I do know they are testing one on my vehicle now
Mush:

We just finalized the exhuast today on diverb's Grand. In fact I drove it over to pick-up a 14 Raptor that we are doing the exhuast work on and in all honesty I enjoyed driving the Grand way more. The exhuast on the Grand looks awesome and the turbo response is amazingly better especially in gears 1-5. I mean you barley touch the throttle and bam that torque just comes alive. I am going to put the old man (that's what I call Gale) in it for a few days and see if he is ok with everything. If all goes well there will be a production ready exhuast on Diverb's jeep next week.

Now to finally get to your question and I apologize for the aside I am just really excited about this whole project. Next week the Jeep will head over to our race/engineering shop where the guys will digitize the engine bay. Once that is done they will design the CAI in CAD and have several design reviews etc. When everyone is happy including GB we will freeze the design and make a rapid prototype for fitment and flow bench testing. The stock one will get tested during this time as well. We will then run the protype on Diverb's and check it for sound, performace, codes etc. After everyone is happy with all of this and any changes/additions are made it will go to get tooled. Next come first articles, and if all goes well no changes to the tooling and we can start production. I am planning to do the same thing I did with the exhuast and send lots of photos to Diverb and he can post them for everyone. Along the way if anyone has questions I am always willing to do my best to answer them and if I can't I will get the question to someone that can.

Sorry for the long answer to the simple question but hopefully it was helpful.

Regards,
Chris
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Unread 03-13-2014, 04:41 PM   #49
bigbadbru
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Guys I apologize for repeatedly spelling exhaust incorrectly in that last post. That is just embarrassing.
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Unread 03-13-2014, 04:44 PM   #50
chartx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbadbru View Post
1- How does DEF in new diesel engines make a difference in tuning? Is it limiting any performance increase?

Chartx here is the reply from one of my engineers on your question regarding DEF:

"DEF (Diesel Exhaust Fluid) is used as part of the SCR (Selective Catalytic Reduction) system, where the urea-based DEF is used to aid in the 'breaking down' of oxides of nitrogen (NOx) that are a major combustion byproduct of the diesel compression-ignition process.

High levels of NOx are generally created by high in-cylinder flame front temperatures, a side effect of high cylinder pressure which is most common under high load (high power). When we tune an engine, we're always watching NOx (as well as HC, CO, and CO2) emissions, and we often times will find that there is a finite limit to the extra power that can be created without substantially increasing the emissions. Careful handling (not shutting off, but proper calibration for higher output) of the turbocharger, EGR, and injection control systems allows us to make more power cleanly, without requiring a much higher rate of urea injection to compensate for increased emissions."

I think the gist of it is if done properly you can still get performace and mileage gains with the emissions equipment in place. It just takes more time, patience, and knowledge. I hope this answers your question.

Regards,
Chris
Thanks for the answer ! Finding that sweat spot of performance gains etc with one more constraint shouldn't be any easy job. Mazda is delaying introduction of their diesel engine without DEF for a while already. And rumors is that they have serious issues controlling NOx emissions while providing traditional diesel gains. So I am looking forward to seeing the end result ! Especially the engine dyno graphs.
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Unread 03-13-2014, 07:06 PM   #51
ECOBIX
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So just by removing the mufflers you notice a performance increase with no tuning?

Thanks
Chris
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Unread 03-13-2014, 08:02 PM   #52
Robert J. yates
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Chris..... One thing on the CAI. Since we are talking Jeeps, please make sure your engineers are aware that some of actually use them as such and therefore, make sure that the CAI does not wind up in a place that will allow it to suck in water or reduce the Jeep's water fording capability. My truck will end up on the Mojave Road, if not next month, later in the fall and as I understand it, the first water crossing at Afton Canyon is currently close to 18" deep. Thanx
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Unread 03-14-2014, 07:29 AM   #53
Jackal01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbadbru View Post
Guys I apologize for repeatedly spelling exhaust incorrectly in that last post. That is just embarrassing.
The other reason to use the quote and multi quote buttons is that can notifiy the other person that their post was replied to. Not sure if you know that or not.


We won't knock you too hard for the misspelling
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Unread 03-14-2014, 05:34 PM   #54
bigbadbru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert J. yates
Chris..... One thing on the CAI. Since we are talking Jeeps, please make sure your engineers are aware that some of actually use them as such and therefore, make sure that the CAI does not wind up in a place that will allow it to suck in water or reduce the Jeep's water fording capability. My truck will end up on the Mojave Road, if not next month, later in the fall and as I understand it, the first water crossing at Afton Canyon is currently close to 18" deep. Thanx
Robert;

Lucky for me the guy doing the intake design is a die hard Jeeper. Our CAI will go in the same spot as the stock one. We our tooling one for the gasser Grands and it pulls cold air from the wheel well from an inlet at the top of the box. Unless your hood is underwater then I think you will be good. However, if your hood is underwater you may have some bigger issues or you are just having an S Ton of fun and you need to send some pics!!

Chris
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Unread 03-15-2014, 12:46 AM   #55
chocco
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbadbru View Post
Mush:

We just finalized the exhuast today on diverb's Grand. In fact I drove it over to pick-up a 14 Raptor that we are doing the exhuast work on and in all honesty I enjoyed driving the Grand way more. The exhuast on the Grand looks awesome and the turbo response is amazingly better especially in gears 1-5. I mean you barley touch the throttle and bam that torque just comes alive. I am going to put the old man (that's what I call Gale) in it for a few days and see if he is ok with everything. If all goes well there will be a production ready exhuast on Diverb's jeep next week.

Now to finally get to your question and I apologize for the aside I am just really excited about this whole project. Next week the Jeep will head over to our race/engineering shop where the guys will digitize the engine bay. Once that is done they will design the CAI in CAD and have several design reviews etc. When everyone is happy including GB we will freeze the design and make a rapid prototype for fitment and flow bench testing. The stock one will get tested during this time as well. We will then run the protype on Diverb's and check it for sound, performace, codes etc. After everyone is happy with all of this and any changes/additions are made it will go to get tooled. Next come first articles, and if all goes well no changes to the tooling and we can start production. I am planning to do the same thing I did with the exhuast and send lots of photos to Diverb and he can post them for everyone. Along the way if anyone has questions I am always willing to do my best to answer them and if I can't I will get the question to someone that can.

Sorry for the long answer to the simple question but hopefully it was helpful.

Regards,
Chris
Hi Chris,

Is it possible to do before and after dyno runs so we can see what if any Power/Torque increases there are on each mod.

I know there will be increases but whether or not its worth the extra money.

I am watching this thread with great interest as we have sweet FA in the way of mods.

Cheers
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Unread 03-15-2014, 09:59 AM   #56
Robert J. yates
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbadbru View Post
Robert;

Lucky for me the guy doing the intake design is a die hard Jeeper. Our CAI will go in the same spot as the stock one. We our tooling one for the gasser Grands and it pulls cold air from the wheel well from an inlet at the top of the box. Unless your hood is underwater then I think you will be good. However, if your hood is underwater you may have some bigger issues or you are just having an S Ton of fun and you need to send some pics!!

Chris
Right on Chris. Thanx for the reply
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Unread 03-15-2014, 11:24 AM   #57
bpbpimajeep14
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I too am very interested in the things that are being tested. I have an overland diesel that I would like to mod anything I can that doesn't void warranty until it's up then maybe a tuner. Would love to spank a hemi with our 'slow' ecodiesel.


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Unread 03-15-2014, 08:27 PM   #58
MuSh
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Thanks for the info Chris. I'll buy the intake the day it's available. Just do me a favor and don't let them put any effort into making the intake quiet.

Any plans on working a full exhaust? Not just dpf back? I know that will require some tuning and deleting, but would be great to see something in the long term. Stupid emissions!
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Unread 03-18-2014, 06:46 PM   #59
onebluemcm
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Have been away from the forum for a few days, looks like there is steady progress and planning going on. The new y-pipe looks like a winner.

Sounds pretty cool how you go about designing the CAI.

I don't know about the feasibility of before and after dyno runs for every modification, sounds like a lot of dyno time, but I would also like to see numbers, particularly for any more serious mods, like turbo modifications, just to be sure there is some benefit.

Sounds like you have a great job Chris - I'm sure you see some amazing projects there.
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Unread 03-19-2014, 06:03 PM   #60
philbytx
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Gale Banks improvements

Bump!

Will any of the mods void our warranty or is GB working with Chrysler/Jeep on them?
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