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Unread 07-18-2012, 03:53 PM   #76
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Agree, despite us, the owners, discussing the test we should demand some answers from Jeep/Chrysler on this. If there isn't an issue, the answer shouldn't be a problem, right?

By the way CR found something similar, and Jeep fixed it. So it's not a new issue.
Bottom line, I think CR stated it right: http://news.consumerreports.org/cars...consumers.html

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Unread 07-18-2012, 04:47 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Timo_90xj View Post
I hated the V50 I occasionally drove when I didn't have a vehicle for a while a couple years ago during winter the slightest amount the rear-end started going sideways and the vehicle would start correcting it.. I still can't understand how can it be safe on corners, because all it did was instead of turning to right direction with slight amount of oversteer, it went on to understeer and trying go off tho road. Maybe it had an off-road vehicle's heart within
My mother has a 2004 Volvo XC70 wagon. It is one of the worst cars I've ever had to drive, and that's saying quite a bit. A Volvo is a great car to be in if you're involved in a serious crash. That said, the way it drives doesn't really do anything to help you avoid a crash in the first place. It's slow, it handles like a sailboat, and it's all over the place on the highway. I was driving it once and had to avoid a large piece of debris on the highway, and didn't swerve all too abruptly and still started fishtailing. This is in a car equipped with DSTC, Volvo's ESP system. Mentioning that, I've driven it in the snow as well. With every car I've had, the goal of the DSC/ESP system is to prevent you from entering a skid before it happens and they've been pretty effective. Once in a skid, they are also a great help. The system in the Volvo waits until you are already in a fairly lethal skid before starting to intervene. They aren't as safe as they seem...
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Unread 07-18-2012, 04:55 PM   #78
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Regardless of whether the test was legitimate/biased/rigged/etc., this still does seem to pose the question of whether there really is a handling deficiency with the car. I love my GC to death, but in several ways I do believe it was rushed to market without adequate testing. I think they got about 90% of the way there. Although it is marketed as an off road vehicle, I think FIAT/Chrysler should have taken into account that although it has these capabilities a good majority of the people who buy it, especially the Overland model, have absolutely no plans to take it off road. I think they would have done well to tune the handling for more realistic situations, rather than off-road performance. Also, I think Ford SUVs have a component to their ESP called Roll Stability Control, which locks one of the wheels if it senses a rollover is imminent (so the tire skids instead of gripping) to lessen the chance of the car actually flipping. I'd much rather buy a new tire than roll my car. Perhaps Jeep should implement something similar?
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Unread 07-18-2012, 06:16 PM   #79
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My manual says the Grand Cherokee has ERM, electronic rollover mitigation. Applies brakes and controls throttle when rollover condition is detected. Haven't tested it though. And I will try not to.
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Unread 07-18-2012, 09:36 PM   #80
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I'm a student at the University of Arkansas primarily focused on analytics, and, having taken classes and seminars designed specifically for learning proper research and methods, I conclude that this test is not being conducted by trained, professional researchers.

Take that as you will, but I will take it as less credible than other researchers who have rated this vehicle with what appears to be an average to better than average roll over rating. I'm not saying I am right, however I am confident in my abilities to spot inadequate research and reporting methods.

Using absolute words like 'lethal' and 'fatal' hurts credibility in so far as that the 'scientists' are assuming a result without actually experiencing one. In a 'test', that is the farthest thing from ethical experimentation and reporting. If the Jeep is so dangerous and is a fatal machine, don't you think occupants would have taken more serious safety measures after the first test? After all, the driver isn't a trained professional and is not a certified test driver... I mention his lack of credentials a trained test driver for the sole fact that a professional should be used to objectively attempt to duplicate the results of the test.

That aside, it appears to me that the Jeep is traveling faster, and the unqualified tester certainly 'yanks' the Jeep around more...almost like he's trying to over steer. I understand that the every day driver may be out of control, but any vehicle can be made to flip if maneuvered correctly...even during a test...

The magazine then uses almost a smear ad approach--telling viewers to think of your families and children for God's sake!!!!--and then suggests that consumers not buy the product. It may not be bias, but it is certainly not scientific-grade research and reporting.

Now, what Chrysler needs to do is sponsor two third-party testing agencies to set up and conduct the same test...albeit the exact conditions can never be duplicated unless in a perfectly controlled environment. If three independent researchers can reproduce the same result, then the problem is serious...until then; I would take this magazine and test with a grain of salt...

In conclusion, my own Mother drives a new Overland, my brother an Overland...and I will be getting one when I graduate in May (hopefully a diesel!!!), so I have reason to be concerned about the legitimacy of this test...


Keep in mind this is my opinion and just what I observed...
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Unread 07-18-2012, 09:52 PM   #81
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Nicely said, HOGsjeep. Good first post.

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Unread 07-18-2012, 10:16 PM   #82
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Nicely said, HOGsjeep. Good first post.

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Unread 07-19-2012, 07:16 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by HOGSjeep
The magazine then uses almost a smear ad approach--telling viewers to think of your families and children for God's sake!!!!--and then suggests that consumers not buy the product. It may not be bias, but it is certainly not scientific-grade research and reporting.

Now, what Chrysler needs to do is sponsor two third-party testing agencies to set up and conduct the same test...albeit the exact conditions can never be duplicated unless in a perfectly controlled environment. If three independent researchers can reproduce the same result, then the problem is serious...until then; I would take this magazine and test with a grain of salt...

In conclusion, my own Mother drives a new Overland, my brother an Overland...and I will be getting one when I graduate in May (hopefully a diesel!!!), so I have reason to be concerned about the legitimacy of this test...
.
Hello HOGSieep,

Welcome to the forum, and thanks for the post. Well said, and I agree that third parties should investigate this, especially as CR did this maneuver also and found similar issues which were then resolved by Jeep pretty immediately http://news.consumerreports.org/cars...g-problem.html.

I am in the research and experimentation business as well, and agree that the test includes a lot of variables, however we have to split between the actual test team conducting the test and the writers making the story. We haven't seen the full test nor its documentation but only the writers products. Not sure if thats an 'ad approach' its a consumer magazine so they are supposed to give advise from what they learned. Not sure if a statement like 'yes it nearly flipped but you have several restraint systems and the cabin is very protective, therefore we think your family will not be harmed" would be welcomed by the consumers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HOGSjeep
That aside, it appears to me that the Jeep is traveling faster, and the unqualified tester certainly 'yanks' the Jeep around more...almost like he's trying to over steer. I understand that the every day driver may be out of control, but any vehicle can be made to flip if maneuvered correctly...even during a test...
As a professional analyst and experimenter I made the experience that assumptions aren't very helpful. Guessing the speed and the drivers behavior through just a video can be wrong. We don't see the speedo nor can we asses the tester as 'unqualified' as we haven't been involved in the test. Not enough valid data through just a couple of videos to asses this properly. Only valid thing is, that they do this testing for years and with thousands of cars (doesn't exclude that they could make stuff up, but again CR found something similar). I think we can stop discussions on the test but request Chrysler to provide some answers!
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Unread 07-19-2012, 12:01 PM   #84
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As a potential WK2 buyer in a couple months (fingers crossed), I'm actually not too concerned about this whole thing because I think it can probably be fairly easily resolved with modification to the ESC programming. I will say that Chrysler's response was a bit disconcerting but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

What am I more concerned about, and will prevent me from buying if I find out it's not been fixed yet, is the issue that EuroNCAP found in their frontal offset crash test: http://euroncap.com/results/jeep/gra.../2011/460.aspx
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Unread 07-19-2012, 12:46 PM   #85
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Suther,


Glad to hear from another analyst and I appreciate your input on my analysis as I am still learning!

That said, I did not mean for my OP to be interpreted as concrete. I was merely giving my thoughts as an analyst with very little data. Since I don't have any actual data, I used the video the best I could. I agree that I need to see speedo and all that jazz, however, the magazine should publish its findings to legitimize its claim. Until then, I would not let this report deter me from buying an otherwise great vehicle.

(I mentioned the test pilot's lack of credentials as given by another poster in this thread. Again, not as sound as an analyst should use, but I really don't feel like digging that deep into a report likely to go nowhere. (if I flip a jeep, then I'll be concerned lol).

I completely agree with you that the testers probably had very little to do with the reporting, however, as an analyst, I would be concerned with how my findings are reported. Also, it is best to stay as objective as possible when reporting experimental data as it's definitely more credible than seeming subjective...even if it's a magazine.

I am also interested to see how/what chrysler does to address this report--valid/biased or not!
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Unread 07-19-2012, 06:03 PM   #86
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Ok sorry but I'm going to lighten this up a bit...here goes

36 seconds in the update video I noticed that the front passenger was wearing a bicyle helmet.

Why couldnt they spring for a real helmet for him also why is he the only one wearing a helmet?.

That's dangerous and could be leathal for the passenger and his family .

http://www.teknikensvarld.se/jeepmoosetest-part4/



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Unread 07-20-2012, 07:03 AM   #87
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Hello HOGSjeep,

Thanks for the feedback. While for years in business as an analyst I am still learning. So keep your appetite.
I think the magazine posted some of the relevant data, speed, loading, tire pressure, test vehicle etc in the actual text. However, fully agree that there should be more rigorous data published. On the other hand, Chrysler hasn't published any data at all concerning this.
As reaction to the CR testing they flashed the software http://news.consumerreports.org/cars...consumers.html
I think this is a great chance for Chrysler to step up and state facts explaining everything. So far they PR isn't very good. They shouldn't trap into the same mistakes Mercedes stepped into so that it was too late to explain everything.

An other question to this, would lowering the Jeep and/or a stiffer crossbar (like the one from the SRT8) prevent this better?
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Unread 07-20-2012, 10:42 AM   #88
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What other SUVs have had this test? And don't tell me that Touaregs and XC90s are in the same category...IMO they are crossovers that are not designed to go off-road like the GC is.

Again, not saying that Chrysler doesn't need to address the test results, I'd just like to see how other off-road capable vehicles do on this test. If anyone has links to these tests please share.
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Unread 07-20-2012, 11:32 AM   #89
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What other SUVs have had this test? And don't tell me that Touaregs and XC90s are in the same category...IMO they are crossovers that are not designed to go off-road like the GC is.
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Whether you would like to believe it or not they are in the same vehicle class. Vehicle classes are not determined by off-road capabilities. The off-road capabilities of the JGC are what distinguished it in it's class, but does not put it in a class of it's own or any other class of vehicles. It is a mid-sized SUV just like the Volvo and the Toureg. If you go to Jeep's very own website and choose to do a competitive comparison of vehicles to the 2012 Grand Cherokee Overland 4x4 guess what vehicles they display....

Ford Explorer Limited, Chevy Traverse, and Toyota Highlander Limited.
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Unread 07-20-2012, 12:03 PM   #90
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Whether you would like to believe it or not they are in the same vehicle class. Vehicle classes are not determined by off-road capabilities. The off-road capabilities of the JGC are what distinguished it in it's class, but does not put it in a class of it's own or any other class of vehicles. It is a mid-sized SUV just like the Volvo and the Toureg. If you go to Jeep's very own website and choose to do a competitive comparison of vehicles to the 2012 Grand Cherokee Overland 4x4 guess what vehicles they display....

Ford Explorer Limited, Chevy Traverse, and Toyota Highlander Limited.
OK, I'd like to see how each of these vehicles does in the same test.

Actually, I'd also like to see how the 4Runner, Pathfinder, and Land Rover vehicles do as well.

We have a 2001 Highlander, and although it's advertised to be in the same class as a crossover it does not handle like a true off-road capable SUV.
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