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Unread 04-24-2013, 08:15 PM   #61
KickRocks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kev M View Post
KR - why do you have such a hard-on for the V6?

JEEEZZZZ

I can't speak to the V8 as we don't have one.

I test drove it, and we felt no need for it.

Our towing needs are well covered by the V6.

Our mileage is dramatically better than reported by the V8s.

Service seems to be well thought out/easier on the V6. I can change a motor as well as change spark plugs, but I have no desire to do either anytime soon. I'd rather spend my time riding our motorcycles than wrenching on our Jeep.

YMMV so test drive one and see what you want, but I have absolutely no complaints about the V6.
Clearly you didnt read the thread... you really should if you're going to comment. I don't have a hardon for the V6.. I have a problem with people giving mis-information about the V8. It's fine to have preferences.. I'm glad you found the V6 enough for your family and what you'll use it for. That doesn't make the V6 better than the V8.. it might be for YOU...But, performance wise it's not.

Your Mileage is dramtically better huh? Have you seen the V6 city mileage thread? Lots of 15 mpg post in there.. I reguarly get 18+ in the city with my V8.

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Unread 04-24-2013, 08:59 PM   #62
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op, i own both the v=6 and a hemi. the v-6 is in my 12 wrangler and the hemi is my ram 1500 4x4. both are great engines. the v-6 in my wrangler with 3:21 gears, will be regeared after warranty is up, is a fine engine. imho, in a daily driver grand would be fine providing you are not planning on heavy towing. keep in mind the hp and torque ratings are pretty close to the 4.7 engines they replaced and exceed the specs in my wifes 04 grand 4.7. you will get close to same peformance out of the six with better mpg. i have no doubt that my ram with a hemi would out accelerate a new grand with the v-6, but your not buying a sports car. the hemi has been around for awhile now and is a proven reliable engine. mpg is improved with the mds, but will gulp gas in stop and go. some complain of a "shudder" while in mds mode. doesn't bother me in a truck, but it might in a suv. if your are concerned about the longevity of the v-6 engine, it comes with the standard 5 year 100000 mile warranty, which you can extend anytime before you hit 36000.
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Unread 04-25-2013, 06:45 AM   #63
Kev M
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KickRocks View Post
Clearly you didnt read the thread... you really should if you're going to comment. I don't have a hardon for the V6.. I have a problem with people giving mis-information about the V8. It's fine to have preferences.. I'm glad you found the V6 enough for your family and what you'll use it for. That doesn't make the V6 better than the V8.. it might be for YOU...But, performance wise it's not.

Your Mileage is dramtically better huh? Have you seen the V6 city mileage thread? Lots of 15 mpg post in there.. I reguarly get 18+ in the city with my V8.
* yawn *

CLEARLY you may have read the threads, but you didn't pay attention as I've commented in both.

And it's a tad silly to compare the lowest mpg one person gets with the highest another person gets as the largest variable outside the motor is the driver.

I CAN get 21+ mpg in the city, others might get less.

Those others would likely get a LOT less with the Hemi in the city. I do MUCH better on the highway and I'm thrilled.

I don't have a dog in the peppier hunt, but I'll say that the V6 does absolutely everything we wanted, including tow, off-road, and be a bit more conservative at the pump which is nice considering how ungodly heavy this damn thing is.

I'll also add that the design and build quality of the Pentastar seems impressive and we're looking forward to many more years of service from it.

In those sense it is in every single possible way "better" for us than the V8.

I don't doubt that the V8 is "better" for what you wanted.
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Unread 04-25-2013, 08:00 AM   #64
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Unread 04-25-2013, 03:32 PM   #65
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I'm at 30,000 miles with no problem....
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Unread 04-25-2013, 06:16 PM   #66
LouC
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Well I haven't tried a WKII with the Hemi but I compared the first WKII my dealer got in (v6) back to back with my 07 (only 330 hp vs 390 in the new ones) and still no contest. The WKII was great for a 6 (keep in mind I've driven a ZJ 4.0 6 for 15 years) but the Hemi has more power and torque everywhere. Yep I changed those 16 plugs, of course it took longer than my 4.0 but I'd rather DI that than leave plugs in an aluminum head for 100k miles. Lots a luck getting those out. Just my opservations from 41years of wrenching on my own stuff. Yes I remember the original Hemis and let's just say you youg uns missed out on the original Elephant 426 but the 6.1 in the WK SRT8 (420 hp) is damn close. The 6 is nice, but the Hemi is exciting. Try flooring one some time.
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Unread 04-25-2013, 07:00 PM   #67
Dave2002ti
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LouC View Post
Well I haven't tried a WKII with the Hemi but I compared the first WKII my dealer got in (v6) back to back with my 07 (only 330 hp vs 390 in the new ones) and still no contest. The WKII was great for a 6 (keep in mind I've driven a ZJ 4.0 6 for 15 years) but the Hemi has more power and torque everywhere. Yep I changed those 16 plugs, of course it took longer than my 4.0 but I'd rather DI that than leave plugs in an aluminum head for 100k miles. Lots a luck getting those out. Just my opservations from 41years of wrenching on my own stuff. Yes I remember the original Hemis and let's just say you youg uns missed out on the original Elephant 426 but the 6.1 in the WK SRT8 (420 hp) is damn close. The 6 is nice, but the Hemi is exciting. Try flooring one some time.
First off the current V8 is not a hemi not even close and it doesnt even come close to original 426 street hemi. What are you smoking?
Jeep's competitors V8's are more modern and more efficient. You all need to read up on the latest version of the small block that will appear in 2014 Chevy pick up. Also read up on the Ford Coyote. Both are lighter, dont use ancient technology ie 16 spark plugs and cast iron blocks. BTW I have changed a lot of spark plugs in all kinds of aluminum head engines at 100K miles w/o any problems. You need to know what you are doing.

Cold Case you need to do a little research too. Even the previous generation small block ie the on in current GM pick ups and in the Vette is more efficient, lighter weight and uses more modern technology than the current so called hemi. Chrysler needs to take the technology from the new Viper V10 and develop a new V8 and get rid of the hemi tag line.

Now the original hemi was a great NASCAR and NHRA engine but it never did well in road racing or if I remember correctly the Baja 1000. If I have to choose an V8 engine from the back then give me an all aluminum Chevy big block Can Am engine or a Ford 427 GT40 Le Mans engine. Now the previous generation hemis from 300 did race at Le Mans with Briggs Cunningham. In my basement all wrapped up is a nice 69 weather stabilized BMW2002 short block and a Formula 2 4 valve head for the ultimate round taillight driving machine.

Problem will be can Chrysler find the money to develop a modern V8 to compete with Ford Coyote and the new GM small block? Fiat is taking all the Chrysler profits.
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Unread 04-25-2013, 07:09 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KickRocks View Post
My points are facts...actual numbers, not opinions. Saying something "Feels peppier" is an opinion. What makes the "V8" better? It's established, proven reliable. It's faster, it's more powerful. There's nothing "Better" about the V6 outside of MPG.. but not by much. ill be posting a vid soon for all you V6 folks bragging about MPG.
Well, if you read my post, you'd see that I repeated, over and over again that I was just presenting my opinion. And asked you to acknowledge that you were presenting yours.


Established? What does this even mean? Proven reliable? just as much as the V6. More powerful? Faster? Sure, facts. You're confused. You're making an assumption that facts=better. And this is misleading to the OP and people trying to figure out which engine they need.

Facts are just empirical claims. The V6 has 280 hp. This is a fact. It can't be objectively better than another fact. It can prove that your Hemi has more HP than my V6. Does more HP, more speed make a engine better? If that's what you're after, then the V8 is better for you. But you cannot make the claim that the V8 is objectively better. It doesn't make sense.

If I tell you X is better than Y, you should say: At what? Things aren't just better: they're better at something. So to say that the V8 is a better engine is just like saying it's peppier in the sense that it's an opinion. Facts are evidence for arguments, not arguments in themselves, and certainly not arguments for superiority. Better requires a referent and a context. It's not an objective claim by it's very nature. Faster is. But better isn't. You can't measure 'betterness'. It's an opinion, it's subjective. To present it as truth is misleading.

As to the MPG thing: if you've already decided that you're right, I'm not going to argue with you. Read the MPG threads. Most people aren't getting what you are purporting to get with the V8. In my experience, the V8 was a dog compared the V8 in my pickup, the V6 was more nimble, and the V6 did what I needed. My opinion. Nothing more. Nothing less.
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Unread 04-25-2013, 07:15 PM   #69
DigitalPhoenix
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OK, guys, I'll tell you all about the Pentastar.

Fist of all, the engine is pretty good. The thing about them when they first came out was the valve guides on the #2 cylinder on the even heads were machined wrong on the first productioned models. They have since fixed that issue.
The only thing I don't like about them is the timing chains are long and servicing them in the JK is a ***** and a half.

Those little engines suprise me everytime I put the pedal to the floor though, LOL!
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Unread 04-25-2013, 08:32 PM   #70
LouC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave2002ti View Post
First off the current V8 is not a hemi not even close and it doesnt even come close to original 426 street hemi. What are you smoking?
Jeep's competitors V8's are more modern and more efficient. You all need to read up on the latest version of the small block that will appear in 2014 Chevy pick up. Also read up on the Ford Coyote. Both are lighter, dont use ancient technology ie 16 spark plugs and cast iron blocks. BTW I have changed a lot of spark plugs in all kinds of aluminum head engines at 100K miles w/o any problems. You need to know what you are doing.

Cold Case you need to do a little research too. Even the previous generation small block ie the on in current GM pick ups and in the Vette is more efficient, lighter weight and uses more modern technology than the current so called hemi. Chrysler needs to take the technology from the new Viper V10 and develop a new V8 and get rid of the hemi tag line.

Now the original hemi was a great NASCAR and NHRA engine but it never did well in road racing or if I remember correctly the Baja 1000. If I have to choose an V8 engine from the back then give me an all aluminum Chevy big block Can Am engine or a Ford 427 GT40 Le Mans engine. Now the previous generation hemis from 300 did race at Le Mans with Briggs Cunningham. In my basement all wrapped up is a nice 69 weather stabilized BMW2002 short block and a Formula 2 4 valve head for the ultimate round taillight driving machine.

Problem will be can Chrysler find the money to develop a modern V8 to compete with Ford Coyote and the new GM small block? Fiat is taking all the Chrysler profits.

I do agree that now Chrysler needs to go to the next level but keep in mind, the latest and best technology does not always work the best in the field, this has been seen time and time again. The current Hemi design is well proven, and long lasting. Whether its a true hemi or not, it puts out good power and torque for its displacement if you compare to what Ford and GM offer. The MDS system works very well in my experience. Comparing the modern 6.1 Hemi vs the 66-71 street 426 Hemi, here are a few facts for you..
1) the 6.1 has close to a full liter less displacement
2) the 6.1 was rated at 420 hp and 420 ft lbs NET power
3) the 426 was rated at 425 hp and 490 ft lbs GROSS power, there is a big difference, do you remember what happened to HP ratings when the ratings changed in '72, they went way down. So the modern 6.1 is damn close to the original.
4) the acceleration times of a 6.1 WK are faster than just about any Mopar muscle car that came with the 426.

Like I said, I agree that Chrysler will have to go to the next level, but to say that the best versions of the current Hemi are not the equal of the street Hemi in terms of power, means you are not looking at facts. Gross HP and Net HP which was the change in the rating system back in '72 if you recall is a big difference.

And going back to the question, the Pentastar is a good engine, just what they needed at the time, it does not replace a bigger displacement V8 but is fine for what it is. Compared to any other V-6 from Chrysler its light years ahead. Personally though I feel that the ancient 4.0 six had a lot more potential in it, such as being converted over to a cross flow head and stroked to 4.7 liters. Chrysler felt it was an old engine inherited from AMC and it was, but there are definite inherent advantages in the straight six design.
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Unread 04-25-2013, 08:41 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave2002ti View Post
Cold Case you need to do a little research too. Even the previous generation small block ie the on in current GM pick ups and in the Vette is more efficient, lighter weight and uses more modern technology than the current so called hemi. Chrysler needs to take the technology from the new Viper V10 and develop a new V8 and get rid of the hemi tag line.
There appears to be some emotional bias creeping in here, perhaps a rose colored filter on the existing research may be tainting your view of whats been proven on the street, i.e street smarts. To me it doesn't mater how efficient or high tech an engine is if you can't get more than 100,000 miles out of it. Life is full of compromises, one team chooses one compromise, another chooses another, so we end up with choices. GM V8s have deadly flaws, failure pathologies, weaknesses that are skimmed over in the flash of "new" marketing excitement. They, for the most part, have proven to be a lot of work to keep running for any length of time. Many have been fiascos. The parts seem to be cheap, however, so blowing one up isn't all that expensive, if it wasn't for the labor involved. They aren't that heavy, so working on them don't take much strength, but that is perhaps why they are so weak and don't hold tolerances well... and flex.. I dunno. My efficient small block Vette engine has been completely apart twice to fix a 50 cent head gasket, poorly designed cooling passage/gasket everyone agrees, easily fixable, but GM is more focussed on marketing new than fixing their mistakes. Their overdrive units had fatal design defects and GM did nothing for their customers (except to try to sell the new and efficient cars ). The GM V8 could be a more efficient engine, I dunno, but it is sure a PITA to run more than a few years, thats for sure. Their highly efficient diesels have been nothing but part eaters.

Chrysler is not infallible, of course, that highly efficient modern perfectly sized 4.7 V8 has developed plenty of high mileage issues. But for the most part their traditional engines have been solid. Ford has had so many different engines, some have been solid, some have been worthless. You can't count on them to do it right.

So you may want to look more at street research data than race data, just saying its a difference environment, different POV.

The V6 seems to be a decent engine. The V8 seems to be solid, but not without fairly minor issues... changing spark plugs is a heck of a lot easier than pulling an engine apart every 40,000 miles to fix a coolant leak... but that may just be my opinion.... just saying.

IMHO, I'm not sure what the "next" level is or if I want to go there for my daily ride. The biggest issue with the current "hemi" is the same thing that killed the original. It is just too difficult to make that type of combustion chamber burn green enough.
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Unread 04-26-2013, 03:00 AM   #72
KickRocks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by illflo View Post
Well, if you read my post, you'd see that I repeated, over and over again that I was just presenting my opinion. And asked you to acknowledge that you were presenting yours.


Established? What does this even mean? Proven reliable? just as much as the V6. More powerful? Faster? Sure, facts. You're confused. You're making an assumption that facts=better. And this is misleading to the OP and people trying to figure out which engine they need.

Facts are just empirical claims. The V6 has 280 hp. This is a fact. It can't be objectively better than another fact. It can prove that your Hemi has more HP than my V6. Does more HP, more speed make a engine better? If that's what you're after, then the V8 is better for you. But you cannot make the claim that the V8 is objectively better. It doesn't make sense.

If I tell you X is better than Y, you should say: At what? Things aren't just better: they're better at something. So to say that the V8 is a better engine is just like saying it's peppier in the sense that it's an opinion. Facts are evidence for arguments, not arguments in themselves, and certainly not arguments for superiority. Better requires a referent and a context. It's not an objective claim by it's very nature. Faster is. But better isn't. You can't measure 'betterness'. It's an opinion, it's subjective. To present it as truth is misleading.

As to the MPG thing: if you've already decided that you're right, I'm not going to argue with you. Read the MPG threads. Most people aren't getting what you are purporting to get with the V8. In my experience, the V8 was a dog compared the V8 in my pickup, the V6 was more nimble, and the V6 did what I needed. My opinion. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Let me ask you this... if the V6 is better than the V8, why would Jeep/Chrysler charge MORE for the V8? Why is it considered an UPGRADE over the V6? Seriously, you're living in a fantasy land. You refuse to acknowledge facts...pure and simple Enjoy your fantasty life...Enjoy your V6..
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Unread 04-26-2013, 03:01 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdCase View Post
There appears to be some emotional bias creeping in here, perhaps a rose colored filter on the existing research may be tainting your view of whats been proven on the street, i.e street smarts. To me it doesn't mater how efficient or high tech an engine is if you can't get more than 100,000 miles out of it. Life is full of compromises, one team chooses one compromise, another chooses another, so we end up with choices. GM V8s have deadly flaws, failure pathologies, weaknesses that are skimmed over in the flash of "new" marketing excitement. They, for the most part, have proven to be a lot of work to keep running for any length of time. Many have been fiascos. The parts seem to be cheap, however, so blowing one up isn't all that expensive, if it wasn't for the labor involved. They aren't that heavy, so working on them don't take much strength, but that is perhaps why they are so weak and don't hold tolerances well... and flex.. I dunno. My efficient small block Vette engine has been completely apart twice to fix a 50 cent head gasket, poorly designed cooling passage/gasket everyone agrees, easily fixable, but GM is more focussed on marketing new than fixing their mistakes. Their overdrive units had fatal design defects and GM did nothing for their customers (except to try to sell the new and efficient cars ). The GM V8 could be a more efficient engine, I dunno, but it is sure a PITA to run more than a few years, thats for sure. Their highly efficient diesels have been nothing but part eaters.

Chrysler is not infallible, of course, that highly efficient modern perfectly sized 4.7 V8 has developed plenty of high mileage issues. But for the most part their traditional engines have been solid. Ford has had so many different engines, some have been solid, some have been worthless. You can't count on them to do it right.

So you may want to look more at street research data than race data, just saying its a difference environment, different POV.

The V6 seems to be a decent engine. The V8 seems to be solid, but not without fairly minor issues... changing spark plugs is a heck of a lot easier than pulling an engine apart every 40,000 miles to fix a coolant leak... but that may just be my opinion.... just saying.

IMHO, I'm not sure what the "next" level is or if I want to go there for my daily ride. The biggest issue with the current "hemi" is the same thing that killed the original. It is just too difficult to make that type of combustion chamber burn green enough.
You're a smart man... Well thought out, factual post. Good stuff.
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Unread 04-26-2013, 03:04 AM   #74
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As for any other V6 fan boys... You didn't buy the best engine, you bought what's best for YOU and your needs. There is a difference.
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Unread 04-26-2013, 03:16 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by KickRocks View Post

Let me ask you this... if the V6 is better than the V8, why would Jeep/Chrysler charge MORE for the V8? Why is it considered an UPGRADE over the V6? Seriously, you're living in a fantasy land. You refuse to acknowledge facts...pure and simple Enjoy your fantasty life...Enjoy your V6..
They charge more for that engine because people like you pay for it, the motor is actually one of the cheapest engines they build, they know that people will pay the money no matter what.
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