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Poison spyder items @ oconee off road 706 534 9955FS: 2007-2013 Jeep Wrangler "HALO" Angel Eye KitFS: Wranger BRIGHT License Plate LED! Just $3! Great value

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Unread 04-29-2012, 06:53 PM   #91
peckmv
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heath View Post
Yeah. Weight balance. A battery here, a ECM there. Hanging a heavy *** AGM battery at hood height toward the front of the vehicle, vs setting it low in the floor and centered, makes a tremendous difference in handling. And before someone chimes in with some "it's not a sports car" nonsense, handling is about safety more than performance.
Any time you have any passengers or any objects that weigh more than the battery then your balance is off. The weight of a battery is so little compared to the weight of the Jeep that the argument of balance is in question in my opinion.

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Unread 04-29-2012, 07:33 PM   #92
FAUEE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peckmv View Post
Any time you have any passengers or any objects that weigh more than the battery then your balance is off. The weight of a battery is so little compared to the weight of the Jeep that the argument of balance is in question in my opinion.
Good thing you're not an engineer then

Having the big heavy engine up front puts the car at a disadvantage for weight balance. That's why German cars have had their batteries mounted in the trunk for ages, every little bit of extra weight you can move to the back helps offset the couple hundred pounds of an engine.

Moving the center of mass towards the center of the vehicle makes it respond more like an inexperience driver would expect. That's why Nissan went to great lengths on its FM platform (350Z, FX35, etc.) to move the engine as far back in the front of the car as possible, and it works.

Anyways, moving as much mass as possible to the bottom of the vehicle is also helpful. My father's 911 has all the electronics mounted under the seats, making them vulnerable to water, but making the center of gravity low (his car is also an example of the opposite of what most companies try to do, it has a LOT more weight in the back of the car, which makes it fun but unpredictable to an inexperienced driver). Other companies are moving towards using aluminum and other lighter weight materials in the roof to reduce the weight of the roof to bring the center of gravity down (Mitsubishi's Outlander for example has an aluminum roof to keep its top heaviness down).

Something like the battery doesn't create the entire effect, but it's just one piece of the puzzle. I will admit, it being under the seat doesn't make me thrilled to have to replace it at some point, but AGM batteries do tend to last longer.
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Unread 04-30-2012, 03:25 AM   #93
peckmv
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FAUEE View Post
Good thing you're not an engineer then

Having the big heavy engine up front puts the car at a disadvantage for weight balance. That's why German cars have had their batteries mounted in the trunk for ages, every little bit of extra weight you can move to the back helps offset the couple hundred pounds of an engine.

Moving the center of mass towards the center of the vehicle makes it respond more like an inexperience driver would expect. That's why Nissan went to great lengths on its FM platform (350Z, FX35, etc.) to move the engine as far back in the front of the car as possible, and it works.

Anyways, moving as much mass as possible to the bottom of the vehicle is also helpful. My father's 911 has all the electronics mounted under the seats, making them vulnerable to water, but making the center of gravity low (his car is also an example of the opposite of what most companies try to do, it has a LOT more weight in the back of the car, which makes it fun but unpredictable to an inexperienced driver). Other companies are moving towards using aluminum and other lighter weight materials in the roof to reduce the weight of the roof to bring the center of gravity down (Mitsubishi's Outlander for example has an aluminum roof to keep its top heaviness down).

Something like the battery doesn't create the entire effect, but it's just one piece of the puzzle. I will admit, it being under the seat doesn't make me thrilled to have to replace it at some point, but AGM batteries do tend to last longer.
Actually, I am an engineer. I understand center of gravity and mass. I'll choose bowlzilla's advice and let it go.
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Unread 04-30-2012, 05:09 AM   #94
Heath
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peckmv

Actually, I am an engineer. I understand center of gravity and mass. I'll choose bowlzilla's advice and let it go.
Me too, and do is he. 2/1 wins lol!
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Unread 04-30-2012, 07:55 AM   #95
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Short answer: and so say all of us.

Long answer: It all depends on what you want, for racing a very low polar moment (low = easy to rotate) is good because you want to be able to change direction very fast. A 911 (series) can turn very quickly because it is rotating about the engine rather than having to move the engine (mass). At the same time, it can be a real handful unless you know how to drive it since it tends to understeer when the power is on but if not careful can snap into overseer and then you have a front engined car with rear steering.

This translates to very late braking, establishing rotation while still braking, and easing the power on as you unwind the steering. There are some people who can properly drift a 911 but there are not many and is rarely fast.

OTOH, for stability most people would rather have a car that has a slight understeer and a high moment with some self-centering (caster). This will turn easy at sane speeds but tend to go straight down the Interstate with little correction.

I have had cars with front, wing (Jaguar XK-150), and under the seat (well a little behind - MGA) batteries. Single, dual, and triple. The best thing about putting the battery under the seat (as long as not over the catalytic converter) is that it will not be exposed to under hood heat and will last much longer. Also AGM batteries are usually sealed so will not outgas (sulfuric acid is not good for anything outside the battery, is why battery trays corrode). Drag racers with live rear axles put the battery over the right rear tire because just adding weight is usually illegal.

Bottom line, in the Heap it really does not matter except that putting in a cool place is good for battery life. I also like AGM batteries (have a number of Optimas) but like anything else, how it is built will make a big difference in life. Have not had mine out so do not know who made it but would not be surprised if from Johnson Controls.

Just a side note: AGM batteries generally want a lower charging voltage (13.2-13.5v) than a conventional battery which is why a standard charger should not be used except maybe for a short jump. The chargers I use for long, slow charging (B&D "Smart" chargers) have selection for wet, gel and AGM.

I have used little inexpensive 50ma "float" chargers on everything for a long time. They are non-specific but the charge rate is so low that it does not seem to matter. YMMV.

(long way from "Easter Eggs").


One of these is a diesel.
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Unread 05-01-2012, 07:02 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Ungerer View Post
So you can unlock the flipper glass & then open it by lifting it up . By using the fob ?
You could, if you modified the fob. The function is still there, but the physical button is not. If you were to get one of the early made fobs from 2011 that had the flipper glass button and placed your fob's computer board in that one, it would work.
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Unread 05-02-2012, 07:32 AM   #97
marathon mark
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I removed the piece under the panic button ( I will never use the panic button) and put it where the glass unlock would have been. Seems to work, but I need to glue it in place.... Neat, not crucial, and I would not buy a new fob, but if it is free and takes 5 minutes, sure why not?
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Unread 06-16-2012, 08:17 PM   #98
chubbyhubby
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peckmv View Post
Any time you have any passengers or any objects that weigh more than the battery then your balance is off. The weight of a battery is so little compared to the weight of the Jeep that the argument of balance is in question in my opinion.
It was explained to me that one of the reasons the battery was relocated to the interior was for longer battery life. A cooler battery (removed from the hot engine bay) would have a longer life. A tech told me the battery should be good for a minimum of 7 years. Time will tell...... CH
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Unread 06-16-2012, 10:15 PM   #99
pinky2252s
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For the whole sun visor thing... My WJ does that too. Its not exactly new, haha.
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Unread 06-17-2012, 06:35 AM   #100
padgett
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I just cool the whole engine bay. As to AGMs, I installed my first Optima near the beginning of the century and it is still going strong. Am slowly replacing all my lead-acids.


One of these is a turbo diesel.
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Unread 06-17-2012, 09:15 PM   #101
Sea2Summit
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Easter Eggs - remember

Where are the moderators to get this thread back on topic?

Not that anyone will get this far after being off topic for so long, but...

Is this an Easter egg?

The hood release lever is right below the lower leg of the letter P on the hood emblem (Jeep) Sure makes it easy to remember where it is.
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Unread 06-17-2012, 09:58 PM   #102
Heath
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Quote:
Originally Posted by padgett
I just cool the whole engine bay. As to AGMs, I installed my first Optima near the beginning of the century and it is still going strong. Am slowly replacing all my lead-acids.


One of these is a turbo diesel.
Like I said before it got deleted: Optimas were the most awesome batteries years ago. I had one that lasted 9 years through 6 cars and I ended up selling it with the last car. Their batteries today are junk.


Now Jackal01, if you want to delete that, please see fit to take the time to remove the other countless WAY more off topic posts in this very thread as well.

Thanks,
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Unread 08-29-2012, 07:26 PM   #103
turbospartan
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Couple things...

- the little switch on your key fob allows the actual metal key to pull out from the rubber fob. If you didn't want to have the whole fob with you, you can take just the key and put the fob inside of the fuel door. From inside there, it will not allow the Jeep to be unlocked when someone puts their hand behind the handle. This would be useful if you're doing something like surfing (water) or biking, where you minimize what you have on you.

- As for the headrests being adjustable front to back, my dealer actually told me that they should always be forward as it is a safety feature and will absorb the impact of your head hitting the headrest.

- At least on the 430N, there is a button you can push that will remember that specific artist or song and then remind you when they come on again.

- I hope everyone knows about the flash light, right?

- Another thing the dealer showed me, don't know how much use it'll get though. If the button in the cab doesn't open your fuel door, you can pull the plastic cubby hole thing out of the left side of the trunk and there is a manual pull inside.

- The plug behind the center console can be turned off by pushing the button under the climate control (obvious) so that kids/animals/anything can't get shocked. And I think he said the 12v plug in the compartment in front of the shifter is always on, or something like that?
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Unread 08-31-2012, 07:56 PM   #104
brandnewslacker
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Behind each front row seat, hooks on both sides of the netting are for grocery bags says the dealer. Will field test tomorrow.
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Unread 09-08-2012, 06:58 AM   #105
Dave2002ti
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weight balance

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heath View Post
Weight balance. It's also a sealed AGM Absorbed Glass Mat (often incorrectly referred to as "gel cell") battery that can not fume to the passenger compartment. You do have a jumper/charger point under the hood though.

maybe but then it would behind one of two rear wheels like in BMWs. Didnt Cjs or befre have batteries under the seat.

In an E30 BMw the battery was in the trunk for weight balance
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