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Unread 10-23-2012, 09:24 AM   #46
JeepCares
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Vinnie - did this get resolved?

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Unread 10-23-2012, 10:54 AM   #47
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Has there been any further information on cause ? Last "official" word was in August and that did not say much. Little looking indicates it was first seen on Wranglers in Feb but did not become widespread until June. I suspect the cooler weather is reducing the incidence (but will be back when temp climb again).

OTOH have seen overtemp, bad gas, and heavy load mentioned which would indicate a lean/detonation condition (note, the typical CEL P030x says "misfire" but could be caused by pre-ignition resulting from a hot spot. That could pound guides and burn valves. Back in the day we used to index the plugs to avoid this.

Would be a lot simpler if CJF would just admit to what is going on (could be as simple as a casting core that slipped a little or a machine tool for the chamber that broke but a knowlegable person should be able to tell the difference in the heads if one of each were available for examination.

My testing is also indicating that the V6 radiator in a GC may be marginal - will a HD Hemi radiator fit OK or do I need to have one built ?

Can understand a corporate gag order being in place and people valuing their job but have no doubt that eventually we will find out. Then a simple borescope examination might determine if a problem is likely.


One of these is a turbo diesel.
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Unread 10-23-2012, 12:11 PM   #48
RB145
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Seems to me this is nothing more than a quality problem. I really don't believe the early ones had this issue so that would rule out a design issue. If you look at the posts most people that have had the problem have a 12. I have a 2012 and it sounds like a sewing machine and the dealer says its normal injector ticking. I have compared mine to a 2011 and the 11 has a little tick but less than mine. It seems to me this issue seemed to come about when they stated putting it in the wrangler. They are not saying what the cause is so we don't know. I really don't don't believe its because of cheap gas and some driving conditions that they won't disclose.
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Unread 10-23-2012, 10:24 PM   #49
VinnieTheFish
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepCares
Vinnie - did this get resolved?
For the time being it is resolved, but not to my satisfaction since I still see some random misfires but no CEL yet. I spoke with the other dealership over the phone and explained my findings, what was performed and my dissatisfaction with how the entire process was handled. The service manager told me they would have handled it the same way as Chrysler won't pickup the tab or a bill code for any additional diagnostic work without a CEL. So far no CEL has come on, but I still register misfires after a good 20-30 min drive/warm up and the vehicle is at operating temp. He did offer to have me come down and review what I'm seeing but basically told me the same thing no CEL no code for warranty work they can punch into the system on their side (he implied for billing purposes).

At this point I have to just live with the random misfires being logged unless I start replacing parts myself to isolate the issue (like coil, spark plus, distributor, cylinder leak down test, etc). This very well could have been a combo issue but if anything does rear it's head later on down the road I'm concerned it will be after the warranty has expired leaving me holding the bag on repairs.

For the educated Jeep owner this process is very frustrating and not good PR (I.e. Joe Girard's Law of 250). At the very least having gone through this Chrysler should offer to cover a full diagnostic for other problems after the cylinder head replacement when the customer is seeing misfires and the original issue for bringing in for warranty work was due to a misfire in cylinder #2. A simple test of driving for 15-20 min ten checking the Service $06 menu like I'm doing would be sufficient to verify 0 misfires, but unfortunately to the customer it seems like it being "good enough to not trip a CEL" vs solving the root cause is how it's being approached. My impression from the dealership is Chrysler doesn't cover it so we're not going to go the extra mile due to cost. At their hourly rate I'd rather save the money from my own pocket and diag the problem myself.

On the plus side the new computer flash plus cylinder head does feel like the Jeep has more power/torque. Still not satisfied with the transmission tune when in the 40-55 range shifting up/down but I read Jeep will release an update in the coming months. I'll be on the look out for that.


As to Padgett's comments I don't suspect bad gas, but I couldn't rule it out so I threw that out there. I did notice the ticking issue during the hot AZ summer but didn't pay much attention to it as I wasn't following the WK2 forums closely. Temps had come down considerably when this happened and in my situation I was never in an overheating situation. We had however come back from a trip to CA which has different gas in general than in AZ. No problems in CA but the issue did come up upon the first fill up in AZ after refilling 3x in CA. Normally I would put in 89 or Costco 91 but this trip decided to go 87 from the tank before the trip till the CEL situation since gas prices rose pretty quickly.

I may just end up pulling the plugs this weekend and take some pics/check the gap to see what I find.
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Unread 10-23-2012, 11:47 PM   #50
VinnieTheFish
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@JeepCares

Here's the diagnostic reports that I pulled and at each interval in the process for your edification.

* Report taken 10/4/12 with first CEL noting the misfire in #2 (note the additional misfire besides #2l)
http://www.theblankslate.com/wk2jeep...eport10-4.html

* Report taken 10/5/12 after dealership reflashed the ECU as per Chrysler protocol & drove home 10 miles from dealership (note the more misfires noted in multiple cylinders besides #2, but no CEL on those)
http://www.theblankslate.com/wk2jeep...eport10-5.html

* Report taken 10/17/12 after cylinder head replaced, vehicle drive ~30 miles to my work before shutting off
http://www.theblankslate.com/wk2jeep...7_13159mi.html

* After 13159 mi report was taken and I noticed Freeze Frame still reported the older misfire cylinder #2 data, so I reset the ECU to clear all messages, DTC's, etc. Starting from a clean slate.

* Report taken 10/17/12 later that evening when I arrived home after my commute before shutting off vehicle.
http://www.theblankslate.com/wk2jeep...7_13229mi.html

* Report taken 10/23/12 vehicle was allowed to idle to operating temp (oil temp 179, radiator temp 204 per VIC), then driven for 20 min through residential, onto freeway then back home.
http://www.theblankslate.com/wk2jeep...3_13763mi.html


Maybe if someone else can take a look at the last report and give me their thoughts on the situation. From my side the big issue that prompted the cylinder head replacement was cylinder #2 misfire CEL, but even back then I still had misfires on other cylinders.

Suggestions?

I realize my VIN in published in each of these reports & I left it this way so that the report was unaltered from the TouchScan software and Chrysler could look up the notes/history on my case with the dealership actions performed.
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'14 WK2 3.6L Stone White 4x4 Laredo
'12 WK2 3.6L Steel Blue 4x2 Laredo (Mall Crawler for the wife)
'06 Ram 1500 5.7L Big Horn 4x2 *** SOLD ***
'96 ZJ 4.0L 4x4 NP242 *** SOLD @ 223k miles & still running***
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Unread 10-24-2012, 07:43 AM   #51
padgett
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a: I like TouchScan, have it both for Windows and Android boxes (plug)
b: I would not consider one or two counts significant. Over 10, I would wonder. Does anyone know how many counts are required to set the CEL/MIL/SES light ? Could just disconnect a spark plug and monitor the counts. (EILTTS)

{rant}Until enough people spend the $25 or so (OBDWiz and USB dongle - PC or Bluetooth dongle and Touchscan or Torque - Android, iPads are more expensive) to be able to really monitor their systems, we'll just need to wait for CJF to announce the party line.{/rant}


One of these is a turbo diesel.
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Unread 10-24-2012, 04:46 PM   #52
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Can I ask a favor of others with a 3.6L WK2 who are reading this.

If you have an OBD2 reader and the touchscan software (http://www.scantool.net/touchscan.html) Can you bring your Jeep up to operating temp at idle, drive for 15-20 min then run a diagnostic report. Let me know your vehicle build date, if you've had any software flashes installed on the vehicle, if you hear the ticking sound from the passenger side engine compartment and if you've had the cylinder head replaced. If you want you can upload the link here or you can email it to me at vince@theblankslate.com.

I'd like to compare my vehicle to others out there. I noticed a few things in my 10/4 and 10/5 report that seem odd to me. Some of the values are coming up in metric (before the cylinder head was replaced), the air temps externally don't seem to jive with the ambient temps from Weather Underground also.

I'd like to see a side by side comparison with others out there & see if they also are seeing any misfires but not registering a CEL.

Thanks.
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'14 WK2 3.6L Stone White 4x4 Laredo
'12 WK2 3.6L Steel Blue 4x2 Laredo (Mall Crawler for the wife)
'06 Ram 1500 5.7L Big Horn 4x2 *** SOLD ***
'96 ZJ 4.0L 4x4 NP242 *** SOLD @ 223k miles & still running***
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Unread 10-24-2012, 10:13 PM   #53
RB145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VinnieTheFish View Post
Can I ask a favor of others with a 3.6L WK2 who are reading this.

If you have an OBD2 reader and the touchscan software (http://www.scantool.net/touchscan.html) Can you bring your Jeep up to operating temp at idle, drive for 15-20 min then run a diagnostic report. Let me know your vehicle build date, if you've had any software flashes installed on the vehicle, if you hear the ticking sound from the passenger side engine compartment and if you've had the cylinder head replaced. If you want you can upload the link here or you can email it to me at vince@theblankslate.com.

I'd like to compare my vehicle to others out there. I noticed a few things in my 10/4 and 10/5 report that seem odd to me. Some of the values are coming up in metric (before the cylinder head was replaced), the air temps externally don't seem to jive with the ambient temps from Weather Underground also.

I'd like to see a side by side comparison with others out there & see if they also are seeing any misfires but not registering a CEL.

Thanks.

How does it run aside from what you are seeing in the report do you hear or feel any misfire? Also did the head replacement take care of the ticking noise? Just wondering because mine has a ticking that I only hear on the drivers side. If I standing next to the drivers door it sounds like its coming from under the jeep but when I open the hood I can hear it from the head on that side. I had it to the dealer and they said everything is normal. It runs smooth and strong it just has that ticking noise thats driving me nuts everytime I hear it.
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Unread 10-24-2012, 11:46 PM   #54
VinnieTheFish
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RB145

How does it run aside from what you are seeing in the report do you hear or feel any misfire? Also did the head replacement take care of the ticking noise? Just wondering because mine has a ticking that I only hear on the drivers side. If I standing next to the drivers door it sounds like its coming from under the jeep but when I open the hood I can hear it from the head on that side. I had it to the dealer and they said everything is normal. It runs smooth and strong it just has that ticking noise thats driving me nuts everytime I hear it.
Vehicle feels like it has more power & lower end torque after the cylinder head replacement. Gas mileage improved and sound from the drivers side is completely gone.

On the wrangler forums several people brought their JK to the dealer complaining of the ticking sound, loss of gas mileage and no CEL. They had the dealer perform a cylinder leak down test and found 1 or more in the 40% range and the rest were in the 20% range. That was justification enough to have the cylinder head replaced. I would suggest going that route.

http://www.wranglerforum.com/f33/upd...ml#post2920755

See post #3087

To me this is a sign of a great dealership willing to go the extra mile.
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'14 WK2 3.6L Stone White 4x4 Laredo
'12 WK2 3.6L Steel Blue 4x2 Laredo (Mall Crawler for the wife)
'06 Ram 1500 5.7L Big Horn 4x2 *** SOLD ***
'96 ZJ 4.0L 4x4 NP242 *** SOLD @ 223k miles & still running***
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Unread 10-25-2012, 07:21 AM   #55
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Well, A digital inspection camera could give a look at the surface of the piston and possibly the valves. You would need one that has an imager head less than 10mm diameter to fit through the spark plug hole.

This is really frustrating: months after the problem surfaced, there is still no word from CJF about the extent of the problem other than a vauge percentage which translates to about 7,000 engines affected. From what I have seen it is most likely to affect vehicles over 4,000 lbs. which would multiple the exposure to WK2s 10fold. I would conjecture that moderate load/low speed/hot day may be a factor. Further, pre-ignition (detonation) might play a role in which case you might expect to see evidence on the piston surface with a borescope though I have not seen any mention of replaced pistons.

The problem is that if this were the case, a reflash to bring to the cooling fan in sooner and maybe richen up a little under certain conditions would be a cheap fix and I have not seen any evidence of this happening. Of course that might violate the EPA certification and could explain CJF's reluctance to say anything meaningful. They seem to have "lawyered up".

Will say if Pentastars start littering the highways like Caddy diesels next summer, it could be a PR disaster. It could also destroy the used car market which would be sad because the Pentastar is a superb engine design. However history is poised to repeat itself (copper cooled V8, Vega, Olds 350 diesel...).

Oh well, enough on this. Unless mine starts ticking or someone shows up at my door with few heads to examine, no worries, have over 4 years and 90,000 miles left on the powertrain warrenty.

ps, if anyone starts a real poll I suggest including whether 4x2 or 4x4, whether skid plates are installed, whether running 87 PON, 87 with 10% eth, 89, or "something else", and what the EVIC coolant temp is at 40 mph cruise with a/c off.


One of these is a turbo diesel.
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Unread 10-26-2012, 08:00 AM   #56
padgett
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Usually do not double post but just figured out how to get a report from Torque - have to e-mail to yourself. The misfire portion is below. At 6k miles there is no sign of the issue for my 10/11 Mexican built 3.6.

Have seen it vary from 0 to 1 several times on different cyl. Would get concerned if start seeing double digits.

ps I have a cyl leakdown tester (am something of a sucker for test equipment) and it is not trivial to use, dealer would need to both have one and have someone trained in its use.

It is a good test for a burned or misaligned valve, bad rings, or a holed piston (have not seen any indication of the last two). Ordinary compression test is almost as good.

pps The Law of 250 does not take into account credibility. Certain people in a societal group tend to be considered SMEs in certain areas and have a larger impact than others.

ppps TouchScan reports the same values just in the format Vinnie posted, formatting is nicer than Torque but data is the same.

----
MID:$a2 TID:$0b
EWMA Misfire counts (average) for last 10 drive cycles - Misfire Cylinder 1 Data
Max: 65,535Count Min: 0Count
Test result value: 0Count
PASS
----
MID:$a2 TID:$0c
Misfire counts for last/current driving cycles(calculated) - Misfire Cylinder 1 Data
Max: 65,535Count Min: 0Count
Test result value: 0Count
PASS
----
MID:$a3 TID:$0b
EWMA Misfire counts (average) for last 10 drive cycles - Misfire Cylinder 2 Data
Max: 65,535Count Min: 0Count
Test result value: 1Count
PASS
----
MID:$a3 TID:$0c
Misfire counts for last/current driving cycles(calculated) - Misfire Cylinder 2 Data
Max: 65,535Count Min: 0Count
Test result value: 1Count
PASS
----
MID:$a4 TID:$0b
EWMA Misfire counts (average) for last 10 drive cycles - Misfire Cylinder 3 Data
Max: 65,535Count Min: 0Count
Test result value: 0Count
PASS
----
MID:$a4 TID:$0c
Misfire counts for last/current driving cycles(calculated) - Misfire Cylinder 3 Data
Max: 65,535Count Min: 0Count
Test result value: 0Count
PASS
----
MID:$a5 TID:$0b
EWMA Misfire counts (average) for last 10 drive cycles - Misfire Cylinder 4 Data
Max: 65,535Count Min: 0Count
Test result value: 1Count
PASS
----
MID:$a5 TID:$0c
Misfire counts for last/current driving cycles(calculated) - Misfire Cylinder 4 Data
Max: 65,535Count Min: 0Count
Test result value: 1Count
PASS
----
MID:$a6 TID:$0b
EWMA Misfire counts (average) for last 10 drive cycles - Misfire Cylinder 5 Data
Max: 65,535Count Min: 0Count
Test result value: 1Count
PASS
----
MID:$a6 TID:$0c
Misfire counts for last/current driving cycles(calculated) - Misfire Cylinder 5 Data
Max: 65,535Count Min: 0Count
Test result value: 1Count
PASS
----
MID:$a7 TID:$0b
EWMA Misfire counts (average) for last 10 drive cycles - Misfire Cylinder 6 Data
Max: 65,535Count Min: 0Count
Test result value: 0Count
PASS
----
MID:$a7 TID:$0c
Misfire counts for last/current driving cycles(calculated) - Misfire Cylinder 6 Data
Max: 65,535Count Min: 0Count
Test result value: 0Count
PASS
----


One of these is a turbo diesel.
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Unread 06-15-2013, 07:47 PM   #57
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Hmm, I have been reading about these cylinder head issues. I am considering purchasing a used 2011 GC Laredo with 22k on the clock. Would this problem have already declared itself, if it was going to happen, by this mileage? It appears to have been happening pretty early, at least from reading the posts.
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Unread 06-17-2013, 01:15 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdbmd View Post
Hmm, I have been reading about these cylinder head issues. I am considering purchasing a used 2011 GC Laredo with 22k on the clock. Would this problem have already declared itself, if it was going to happen, by this mileage? It appears to have been happening pretty early, at least from reading the posts.
Mine happened at 45K miles. Dealer covered it under the power-train warranty.
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Unread 08-14-2013, 08:23 AM   #59
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CEL just came on last night on my 2012 WK2 Altitude with 21k. Took it in to the dealership this morning and they said it was this issue
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Unread 12-03-2013, 08:50 PM   #60
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Chrysler Won't Replace My Defective Cylinder 2

I know this is an old post, but I'm hoping someone has an idea of what I can do. I have a 2011 Grand Cherokee with the 3.6L V6. The CEL was showing numorous cylinder 2 misfires so I took it to the Jeep dealer at 99,570mi.

The service consultant said it's either a bad spark plug or a bad cylider head, but he'd have to charge me $140 to find out. I asked if I could take it to a friend who can check the plug, and I would bring it back and pay the $140 if it wasn't the plug. The service consultant said that would be fine, and that he would leave the ticket open so I would be good if/when I came back.

Of course it wasn't the plug, and when I got back to the Jeep dealer a week later they had closed the ticket, and I was at 100,822. I paid the $140 and confirmed it's a bad cylinder head. Now they are saying it will cost me $3,700 to fix because I'm out of warranty, regardless of what the service consultant told me. I have followed up with Chrysler corporate and they've told me the same. Sorry for your luck, it's out of warranty.

Does anyone have a suggestion of how I can get Chrysler to honor what the service consultant told me, and to fix a known issue they have with this engine design?

Thank you for any help you can give!

Grant
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