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Unread 05-18-2013, 09:57 AM   #1
signal34
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PT score mix up

So the new 1SG is on a witch hunt for PT failures and what happens to me? My grader writes down the wrong 2 mile time for me. I have witnesses that finished behind me and beside me that can verify my actual time but my grader wrote down a failing time, over a min off from my actual time. Now I have to do extra PT every day, i'm flagged, and barred. My grader told the 1SG that he messed up and they still refuse to change it. Is there anything I can do? have any others heard of this happening?

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Unread 05-20-2013, 07:49 AM   #2
rdujeep
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take another record APFT. You can take a record APFT anytime you want, you just need a grader higher rank than you.


As a platoon leader, this is what I would advise one of my soldiers to do.

1. inform your team leader & squad leader of the issue.

2. Have the grader and witnesses fill out a sworn statement on the sworn statement form in front your team leader/squad leader. The form is DA 2823.

3. Ensure that your team/squad leader brings this up to the PSG or PL. Once it gets to that level, especially with proof backing your story, they can help you out.

4. Use your previous APFTs as proof of your physical fitness, and that one you "failed" was an anomaly that should be invalidated. The commander can do that.

5. With all those things, the 1SG should back off. If he doesn't, your PL can go straight to the CO and the CO can invalidate the incorrect APFT, or he can correct it, and that'll overrule the 1SG.

More info:

according to AR 350-1 (the regulation that governs the administration of the APFT) Section 1-24 paragraph e subparagraph (5) "Soldiers who fail a record APFT for the first time or fail to take a record APFT within the required period will
be flagged in accordance with AR 600–8–2. In the event of a record test failure, commanders may allow Soldiers to
retake the test as soon as the Soldier and the commander feel the Soldier is ready. Soldiers without a medical profile
will be retested no later than 90 days following the initial APFT failure. Reserve component Soldiers not on active duty
and without a medical profile will be tested no later than 180 days following the initial APFT failure."

You really need to get your chain of command behind you. Besides, according to regs, you can retake it as often as you wish and as soon as you want. Pass it, and the 1SG will back off, he'll be forced to.
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Unread 05-24-2013, 12:29 PM   #3
signal34
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Nobody in my chain of command is in my corner. As of right now I have to test again on tues but this failure will always be in my records. Everyone is afraid of anyone higher rank than them even if they are in the wrong they won't say anything. Everyone in the company knows the story and the consensus is "sucks to be you". My PSG tried to get some of the people who finished right behind me into the 1SGs office as a witness but it never happened.

The worst part of all this is I was still in "recovery" time when I took this test because of a hand injury I got at work. I decided to just show up that morning and take it anyway. So now a voluntary, on my part, PT test has resulted in a failure of a record PT test. I should have just stayed home that morning.
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Unread 05-24-2013, 08:49 PM   #4
rdujeep
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Sounds like you have a valid IG complaint.
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Unread 05-26-2013, 02:17 PM   #5
tanksoldier
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Quote:
Is there anything I can do?
Take the test again? You can test whenever you want. Coordinate with an NCO and go out and test in a few days. You don't have to max, just pass at whatever standard your unit requires above the minimum. Then in a few weeks go out and get your "real" score for promotion points and whatever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdujeep View Post
Sounds like you have a valid IG complaint.
Judas Priest. No, he doesn't.

IF his chain of command doesn't act AND doesn't let him retest, then MAYBE he's got a valid complaint... but not until his commander looks him in the face and says "no". That's what a chain of command is for, and open door policies. You don't run to the IG the first time something happens you don't like.

Christ I hate that.

Nothing says his 1SG or commander have to believe any witnesses or anything else. A retest can't be argued with, unless the 1SG doesn't trust his NCOs in which case you and your unit have a much bigger problem.

Also note that, unless things have REALLY changed, they don't actually need a reason to assign you remedial training... for PT or anything else. "PVT Snuffy, show up behind the company CP at 1630 in PT gear" is all that's required, regardless of your PT score.

Quote:
So now a voluntary, on my part, PT test has resulted in a failure of a record PT test.
IF you were on doctor ordered recovery time then your test can't be valid. YOU can't "voluntarily" ignore the instructions to not do a PT test, or pushups or whatever. In fact, technically, you can be prosecuted under article 91 and 92 for attempting to do so. Your chain of command can order you to take a test regardless of the doc's instructions, but YOU can't ignore them on your own hook. However, if there is no written instruction or recovery period mandated by order, regulation or standing orders, then it doesn't exist.

A failed PT isn't really a big deal. Your most recent is what counts. Your PT card won't even leave your current unit when you PCS. I failed two "surprise" tests way back in the day due to being severely hung over.
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Unread 05-26-2013, 08:17 PM   #6
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Actually you could not be more incorrect. Failing an APFT causes a soldier to be flagged for any favorable actions and it stays with you (even during a PCS or unit transfer) until you pass.

He would have a valid IG complaint if neither his chain of command nor his NCO support channel allows him to retake the test or invalidates it. There's nothing in the regulation that states a 1SG or any other member of command to listen to him (or his witnesses); however it does show that the leadership culture is not a good one when it cannot or will not address such as simple concern as this. As a platoon leader, if I had a soldier with this sort of issue (with witnesses whose integrity is intact), I'd be in the commander's ear daily about it. Then again, a good commander would just direct that another APFT be given and the one at issue be invalidated.

And yes, there must now be a reason why a soldier is placed on remedial PT. Otherwise it could be considered hazing, unfair or unjust treatment, or some other issue. If a soldier isn't meeting height/weight standards, APFT standards, or other physical standards/requirements of the unit then the soldier can be put on remedial PT.

Trust me, after getting a platoon in which 7 soldiers hasn't passed an APFT and within 6 months 4 of them passed and the other 3 improved their score by over 30 points per person; the APFT is something that the Platoon Leader can have great influence on.

What concerns me here though is that the soldier who is the OP is saying that his chain of command isn't backing him nor listening to him. There could be more to the story than what is posted. I do know that if I had a soldier who was in this situation and he was barely meeting the standard on APFT (ie, he was within 10 points of passing on each event for several APFTs in a row) then it would be hard to believe him. Then there is the issue of the witnesses. Why aren't they being believed? Have they sacrificed their integrity before? Are they themselves poor performers? Why didn't the grader just fix the issue right then and there or prior to the DA Form 705 being turned in?


I want to be clear that I'm not advising anyone to just run off to the IG, however if all other means (namely using the chain of command) have been exhausted with no resolution; then it should be a path worth exploring. Too many people are too afraid to do something such as that because it does bring a huge spotlight to the unit and the indivdual(s) involved but it can be good in some cases.
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Unread 05-26-2013, 10:10 PM   #7
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As a current commander I would say take the test Tuesday. Unless you were getting an award the flag isn't going to affect you over the one week period. I don't want to address the issue of no one supporting you as that would require more of an understanding about your company. Good luck on the pt test.
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Unread 05-26-2013, 10:58 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdujeep View Post
Actually you could not be more incorrect. Failing an APFT causes a soldier to be flagged for any favorable actions and it stays with you (even during a PCS or unit transfer) until you pass.
...and if he's taking the test Tuesday that's three days. It happens.

Quote:
As a platoon leader,
...I had more years in uniform than you have months.

Quote:
And yes, there must now be a reason why a soldier is placed on remedial PT. Otherwise it could be considered hazing, unfair or unjust treatment, or some other issue. If a soldier isn't meeting height/weight standards, APFT standards, or other physical standards/requirements of the unit then the soldier can be put on remedial PT.
The PT test is a gauge of overall fitness. The point of PT isn't to pass the PT test, it is to generate a Soldier who is fit overall... and the PT test is ONE measure of that. It is possible to pass the PT test, meet height and weight but not be fit overall.

It is also possible to have higher unit PT standards than the minimum required by regs.

If your NCOs can't decide that a Soldier needs extra work in some area and provide that corrective instruction without a troop running to the IG, and without the chain of command supporting those NCOs and telling the IG to go shove it, your command climate sucks and you are completely screwed. The troops run the unit, not the NCOs and not the officers.

Quote:
What concerns me here though is that the soldier who is the OP is saying that his chain of command isn't backing him nor listening to him. There could be more to the story than what is posted. I do know that if I had a soldier who was in this situation and he was barely meeting the standard on APFT (ie, he was within 10 points of passing on each event for several APFTs in a row) then it would be hard to believe him. Then there is the issue of the witnesses. Why aren't they being believed? Have they sacrificed their integrity before? Are they themselves poor performers? Why didn't the grader just fix the issue right then and there or prior to the DA Form 705 being turned in?
This is all very true, and are good questions.

The more PT failures a unit has, the worse the leadership looks. Somebody has to take their free time to train the failures. If the troop really can pass the 1SG is just wasting everybody's time and making himself look like an idiot. A troop CAN go to the IG, or even the battalion commander or CSM and raise a fuss... so why ignore the evidence?

I've often seen on the internet, and seen in person, Joes who come along and make claims that don't quite fit. This is one of those. It might happen the way it was described, but seems like somebody going to a lot of trouble to no purpose.
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Unread 05-27-2013, 06:39 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tanksoldier View Post
...and if he's taking the test Tuesday that's three days. It happens.



...I had more years in uniform than you have months.

Don't be too quick to say that, I have 16 years in - all but 4 of it in the infantry. I was enlisted prior to commissioning last year. So how about we quit the dick measuring.

Again though, I will say that there is probably more to the story than what is being posted; however the soldier wanted to know his options and those are his options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tanksoldier View Post
The PT test is a gauge of overall fitness. The point of PT isn't to pass the PT test, it is to generate a Soldier who is fit overall... and the PT test is ONE measure of that. It is possible to pass the PT test, meet height and weight but not be fit overall.

It is also possible to have higher unit PT standards than the minimum required by regs.

If your NCOs can't decide that a Soldier needs extra work in some area and provide that corrective instruction without a troop running to the IG, and without the chain of command supporting those NCOs and telling the IG to go shove it, your command climate sucks and you are completely screwed. The troops run the unit, not the NCOs and not the officers.

Agree to disagree here, the PT test measures how well you can do the PT test. I've seen dudes beast on the PT test, yet they can't ruck worth a **** nor move over uneven terrain. And I've seen studs who move through the woods/terrain like deer yet **** their pants on PT test. It is what it is.

There are plenty of units that require more than the minimum, infantry units being one. There are many reasons why a soldier can be put on remedial PT, but you just willy nilly say "well PVT Joe, I have no data to back this up but I think you're a ****bag and I'm gonna put you on remedial PT" that's some bull**** right there, and I would call that weak leadership. And if you're telling your joes to max the APFT and you aren't doing it, then you have lost any credibility as a leader.

If a unit has lots of APFT failures, then yes the unit leadership looks back because it looks like they are tolerating a culture of complacency.
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Unread 07-14-2013, 09:23 AM   #10
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Late reply, but I think I have some relevant remarks that can add to the discussion...

Tank stated that it's "A" gauge of overall fitness, not "THE" gauge. There are several (which is why the USMC changed and added the combat fitness test) ways to gauge fitness.

The Army Standard is the Army Standard. Units can require higher minimums, however they cannot flag anyone for not meeting them. Furthermore, the commander better have a PT policy that clearly stipulates this higher standard before indicating any remedial action (which also must be clearly articulated).

Also, never a good idea to tell the IG to "shove it". IG are not "victims advocates" and don't work for the individual complaining. They are unbiased fact-finders looking for the truth in the B.S. and recommending common-sense solutions. And this really isn't IG appropriate anyway. It would be pushed back down to the command for action. "Hey, command team... consider retesting the Soldier."

In this case, the Soldier only needs to take another APFT. That will remove any doubts. He should have been flagged the day of the perceived failure (code J) per the requirements in AR 600-8-2. Pass the next one, the flag is removed and doesn't "follow" you. True there is now the possibility of a chapter if he fails again, but that should not be an issue. And that is the commander's call.
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Unread 07-14-2013, 12:42 PM   #11
signal34
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It all worked itself out with a little help from the PSG but it did cause me to loose out on an AAM. Oh well though I'll get one eventually.
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