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Unread 10-30-2012, 09:59 AM   #76
nwiTJdave
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Originally Posted by chrisb62186 View Post
Obviously the author of this thread is a close-minded individual and I am glad to see him leave the service of this country. If you don't remember you swore an oath to serve and protect the people of the united states. Being a non commissioned officer with almost ten years of service and over 30 months of time in Iraq I do believe that if a woman wants the chance to serve in that capacity let her. Make her pass by the same standards. if she fails she fails and if she succeeds she succeeds. What does gender really have to do with someone wanting to serve their country. Alot of people are going off track but they are all valid points. Men have never had to prove themselves to be worthy of serving their country in the military. Women have had to fight for almost everything they have. The right to vote, serve in public office, serve their country just to name a few. What are you scared of that the military might want more females in infantry roles? Strength and being an alpha has nothing to do with any of this. A woman is fully capable of leading combat troops, firing a weapon, rucking, doing pt. Alot of women probably just don't want to be in that job and some do. What is the real harm of women in an infantry role? You are a typical marine grunt that no one likes or cares for that his head is too big and can't seem to get it out his a**. The big debate over this issue is people like you that can't seem to think like an educated adult. Like I said in the beginning I am glad knowing that I won't have to share a foxhole with you. Let them serve how they want to if they fail they fail but I would put my money on them succeeding. We have the finest fighting force in the world and with all the change over the years it not once has made us weaker. Thoughts like this is what degrades our force not women in combat roles.
Welcome to our forum however, you are wrong on so many levels in your post. Lets go in order here to ensure there is no confusion.

1) Yes, we swore an oath to defend the constitution to all enemies forigen and domestic. Nowhere in the oath I swore to said I had to want females in a fighting hole next to me
2) I think almost everyone on here is in agreement that if a woman was capable of the same standards as a male (like the Marine Corps just tried at the IOC), then there may be some leeway but what if a woman is capable then when a female becomes pregnant just prior or while on the deployment what happens to that void? As a draw down begins, there are fewer bodies to replace her. What if a woman develops PTSD as a result of the delpoyment? What happens to her ability to have children after her delpoyment? http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA519190 "Although there have been few studies evaluating the impact of PTSD on pregnancy outcomes,
research has identified an association between maternal stress and poor pregnancy outcomes"
3) Nobody is questioning gender to serve in the military, just in the infantry. Women are very much needed in the military. Each sex has its own weaknesses and strengths.
4) What is the real harm of women in the infantry? If we say all women must pass the same physical standards of men and ensure they are capable of the same amount of strength (e.g fireman carrying males, carrying litters with 200+ lbs etc) you then have to look at the mental side. Typically men want to protect women more than themselves. That is just the way our brains are programmed. Also, most men are attracted physically to females and the average Marine is 19 years old. How high is the testosterone in this age group, especially in the military? http://www.renewman.com/male-testost...e-level-in-men That is the average for all men, it lacks creedence on the military side because working out increases testosterone levels. The average grunt works out at least once a day, quite a few workout two to three times a day. Here is a study from 1994 http://www.bluffton.edu/~mastg/The%20He%20Hormone.htm
"Testosterone levels are higher among blue-collar workers, for example, than among white-collar workers, according to a study of more than 4,000 former military personnel conducted in 1992. A 1998 study found that trial lawyers -- with their habituation to combat, conflict and swagger -- have higher levels of T than other lawyers." Here is another good testosterone read http://cogprints.org/663/1/bbs_mazur.html I am only pointing out testosterone on the infantry side because no offense to any non infantry person, from my own experience, the infantry tends to be more aggressive on average.
Most 03's have little interaction with WM's, whenever they see one, look at how they react/act. They behave like they have not seen a female in years and make pretty snide comments about that female 90% of the time, in good or bad ways. Putting them with this group will only create problems for drama as she will more than likely start a relationship with at least one male member causing others to become jealous or challenge themselves to sleep with her. What happens then when/if they break up? What also happens if she becomes forward deployed or out in the field even for a few weeks and runs out of tampons? Women also get UTI's easier than males. What if a woman is unable to get medical treatment for this because of a lack of medical supplies? Sure at large bases they have medical equipment for this while deployed but if we enter a war during the initial invasion, these BAS stations are not readily available. Before you say that's a lot of what ifs, you must think of these things because its not a video game, there is no reset button.
5) You are showing who is the *** with your comment highlighted in red
6) Men have never had to fight for their rights? You must be joking right? Go back to college and take a few history classes.

And since you want to call us cocky, "The American Marines have it, and benefit from it. They are tough, cocky, sure of themselves and their buddies. They can fight and they know it."
General Mark Clark, U.S. Army

Now, fill out your profile so we know what front and rear axles you have

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Unread 10-30-2012, 08:08 PM   #77
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The army has fought in every damn war. It's the oldest branch. The comment about your head is because you show it pretty well with some of your first few comments. The army can prepare men for combat and women. Are you really gonna try to tell me the fraternization is one of the biggest problems. I comes down duty and integrity. I guess alot of people don't really understand their meaning. The monthly female problems can be overcame with preparation. I not once in any unit I have been in seen any problems that are problems in the rear. Combat doesn't change a thing. Testosterone really?? All you have done this entire time since you began this post is try to disprove everyone. If they can pass the standards it shouldn't matter. Testosterone doesnt have anything to do with it. You have an excuse for everything that everyone says just because you don't want a woman to fight next you. I don't have a problem with it because I am no some dumb juvenile soldier, marine, airman or seaman. Believe online that most guys in the military have a hard time keeping their eyes in the head and **** in their pants. I have had plenty of soldiers. Bottom line is that the younger enervation and some others within in the military just don't have any morals or respect period.
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Unread 10-30-2012, 09:43 PM   #78
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What does the Army fighting in every war have to do with anything relevant to this thread?

Preparing people for combat has ZERO to do with women serving in the infantry. Ever hear the saying "Every Marine is a rifleman"? Women (and males) go through Marine Combat Training after boot which is a 4 week program that all non Infantry go through at either Camp Geiger or Pendelton. Just because you can serve in combat to me does not equal to being in the infantry.

How much harder does a female have to work to maintain this standard of physical fitness? Can they do it? That is not to say that women are weak or all men are strong, but a female who is 5'3"weighs 105lbs carrying 75lb pack is a vastly different from a male who is 5'10" 150lbs.

Combat changes a lot. Since you were fast to say you had 30 months in the desert, 10 years tis and are a NCO I am sure you would understand. Unless of course you were a Fobbit. So sure, after you can set up a proper BAS or medical center and have a clear route for supplies then yes, it does not change much but you have to get to a position to have that first. It could take a day or it could take three months. Perhaps Ambugrl will have better insight as to what would be needed for female needs on the medical side for docs to carry with them in their med kits to support them. That one is out of my league.

And perhaps you should actually read up on what testosterone is. Testosterone is not just what allows men to grow beards.

Having duty and integrity does not translate to young men not acting like young men. We work hard and play hard. Everyone wants to make this romantic thing of the military and think of going to the field for 2-3 weeks as just a hike through the woods while sleeping under the stars enjoying the fresh air. I dont know about Army bases, but I know at Marine bases when you go to the field, there are no showers or toilet faculties (If you are lucky there may be a port-a-****ter) at a bivouac.

Judging on your spelling I am guessing you are a phone I can make sense of most of what you are saying but the third to last sentence makes no sense. Can you expand on that?

Here is a big kicker, how do you think women will respond to having to sign up for the SSA? If women are to serve in the infantry than all women must sign up for the draft.

Finally, of course I want to disprove everyone, my stance on the matter is they do not belong in the infantry!

p.s I did not create this thread.

"I am confident that should the Marine Corps attempt to fully integrate women into the infantry, we as an institution are going to experience a colossal increase in crippling and career-ending medical conditions for females." - Capt. Katie Petronio USMC
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Unread 10-30-2012, 09:50 PM   #79
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I think this was already posted but you should read it if you havent. It was written by a female regarding this topic. She has more combat expierence than a vast majortiy of the military http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/a...-created-equal
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Unread 10-31-2012, 04:26 AM   #80
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Bottom line man its an opinion. Just because you don't want it to happen doesn't mean that it shouldn't happen. I don't want to take your opinion away from you in any way. I have been on foot patrol, cordon searches, qrf and spent plenty of time in Tikrit, Baghdad, Balad, Tuz and patrolling MSR Tampa. Fobbit....NO. A big difference between the two of us is I k ow that my opinion may not be 100% correct. Obviously my biggest thing is if they want to try and hack it then let them attempt there is no harm in that. If they succeed they do and if they fail they fail. Bottom line believe in what you want but at the same time take in everyones opinion and accept the fact that everyone sees things differently.
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Unread 10-31-2012, 12:53 PM   #81
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I think saying your glad I'm out of the service is quite a bit more close minded than my opinion. Especially since my opinion has some facts surrounding it. I am in no way opposed to females in the military. I just strongly believe the infantry, where people go to kill is best done in many areas by men. I already stated that there are females who could do it. However, uniformity is what the military and moreso the infantry is based on. Why? Because the more you complicate things the harder it is to achieve the endgoal. So like I said, if in testing female numbers can't match males as far as performance goes, then that is it. I don't get why we can bend the rules to achieve that.

Everyone is saying "if they want to try then let them." When in the hell has the military ever been about what you want? People need to stop worrying about military careers and start worrying about the actual task at hand and how to best get that done. Again I ask, how would it be fair to a man who is assigned infantry and doesnt want it, and then saying "oh you're a female, you don't have too if you don't want too." How about the SSA like Dave mentioned? Men are simple creatures. Take them at 18-24, exclude from some of the simple pleasures of life, piss them off and send them to war. Any way you inject some complication, no matter the form it makes the organization a weaker force. It's bad enough when you have a Marine or soldier worrying about regular problems back home, now we're going to throw even more things into the mix? Watch interviews of forward soldiers etc. When asked, the young men generally say they miss the beer, parties, etc etc. The women generally say they miss their families, kids, and all that good stuff. That's fine, but also another indicator of different 'wiring.'. How many times have you heard that 18-24 year old men are full of piss and vinegar? Ever hear that about women? How many bar fights are women in opposed to men? Infantry is ALL about violence. There is no other way to slice that bread.
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Unread 11-01-2012, 08:15 AM   #82
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Yours is one opinion and that is fine. The oath you swore included following the orders of those appointed over you; if they say women are in then it is your duty to support it 100%. Almost all your arguments boil down to the inability of male Marines to control themselves or perceived lack of support and not limitations of females. Are you saying that 18-24 year old male Marines are too immature to conduct themselves in a manner that will not disgrace the Corps if ordered to accept women into the infantry? Infantry is about more than violence it is about discipline and proper execution of orders; pure violence is simply a mob.

Requiring women to meet the already established standard must be a part of allowing them into combat roles as is accepting that a low number of women could meet the standard. However excluding those who meet that standard based on inability of males to adapt is not acceptable.
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Unread 11-01-2012, 09:49 AM   #83
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I dont think anyone here is questioning a womans ability to lead and give orders and a male to follow them. That happens daily throughout the military.

Do you think that women will improve the effectiveness of the infantry by being allowed in? Humping a pack is different from flying a plane or pushing papers.

How much do you have to change to accommodate them? Several barracks still in use by the Marine Corps use a community head. There are sometimes an NCO head in these barracks so do you boot NCO's out of their head forcing them to the other head and giving women their own head? That will make it extremely rough for the women from the start as that will piss off NCO's pretty bad. That is not to say NCO's think they are better than anyone and cannot ****, shower and shave where non rates do but with rank comes privilege. Do you not have women sleep at these barracks giving them special privileges? So then you potentially piss off the lance coolios who have 4 man rooms in a 2 man room and these women then get to live in a better barracks and not have the same sleeping conditions.

When you go to the field, do women get their own tent?

And I am saying most young and even a few older ones act quite vulgarly. How often does someone nude walk around the barracks wearing their gas mask and flak jacket/plate carrier? Perhaps the Army is different than the Marine Corps on that.

The job of the infantry is to locate, close with and destroy the enemy by fire and maneuver, or repel the enemy's assault by fire and close combat. You are only as a strong as your weakest link. Not to say that all Grunts are tough but typically after 1 firefight the weak are dead or will never leave the wire again. I have seen more women never go on a convoy even after an IED was found than I have seen men never to leave the wire because they were weak when the 1st shot was fired at us.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us." - George Orwell

http://www.duffelblog.com/2012/10/ev...-infantry-mos/
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Unread 11-01-2012, 02:26 PM   #84
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I had a platoon of mixed male and female medics. We had mixed ambulance teams and supported armor and infantry. My female medics were right out there with the grunts. Biggest issue was some idiot infantry NCO freaking out about how female medics were going to ruin his unit. In three years I didn't have one confirmed issue and in fact they were treated very well. None of the guys had any problems coming to them and getting treatment and no concerns about not have male medics. When not out with the units we supported all my medics slept in one tent and the cots were arranged by ambulance team so no segregation in the tent. No issues with running naked in gas masks that must be a Marine thing. I simply told my folks I expected them to act like professional Soldiers and they did. As for NCOs not having thier own head; well deal with it. 24 months in Iraq and I shared facilities with junior enlisted, NCOs, company grade officers and fellow field grades wihtout an issue. Women did the same.
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Unread 11-02-2012, 02:30 PM   #85
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I had a platoon of mixed male and female medics. We had mixed ambulance teams and supported armor and infantry. My female medics were right out there with the grunts. Biggest issue was some idiot infantry NCO freaking out about how female medics were going to ruin his unit. In three years I didn't have one confirmed issue and in fact they were treated very well. None of the guys had any problems coming to them and getting treatment and no concerns about not have male medics. When not out with the units we supported all my medics slept in one tent and the cots were arranged by ambulance team so no segregation in the tent. No issues with running naked in gas masks that must be a Marine thing. I simply told my folks I expected them to act like professional Soldiers and they did. As for NCOs not having thier own head; well deal with it. 24 months in Iraq and I shared facilities with junior enlisted, NCOs, company grade officers and fellow field grades wihtout an issue. Women did the same.
Being deployed is different from being in the rear in regards to using facilities for rank. Obviously females on base should have their own head.

Coming from my own experience, grunts love docs/medics. They view them with the utmost respect. I have never had to deal with a Corpsman or field Medic who was a female, only saw them as dental techs usually so I will withhold my thoughts on how Marines would view them.
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Unread 11-03-2012, 11:50 PM   #86
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Yours is one opinion and that is fine. The oath you swore included following the orders of those appointed over you; if they say women are in then it is your duty to support it 100%. Almost all your arguments boil down to the inability of male Marines to control themselves or perceived lack of support and not limitations of females. Are you saying that 18-24 year old male Marines are too immature to conduct themselves in a manner that will not disgrace the Corps if ordered to accept women into the infantry? Infantry is about more than violence it is about discipline and proper execution of orders; pure violence is simply a mob.

Requiring women to meet the already established standard must be a part of allowing them into combat roles as is accepting that a low number of women could meet the standard. However excluding those who meet that standard based on inability of males to adapt is not acceptable.
1) please find me a group of 18-24 year old men in the capacity of even just one battalion, watch them on a Friday night, and try to tell me they will take the moral high grounds. I dont care what uniform you put on somebody, out of 800+young men, there's going to be a lack of morals or discipline somewhere.

2)Dave already said what the infantry is all about. I'll add in another. Speed surprise and VIOLENCE of action. Yes, there is discipline but it is there to promote the desired outcome in combat.

3) I already listed areas that females would come up short in. Nobody had anything to say about it except "well I knew one female soldier etc etc." To add to the discipline factor, infantry is also about uniformity. This isn't special forces, this is traditional infantry with numbers in the upwards of 30,000 for the Corps. Adding in even 500 females will do nothing to improve the effectiveness, and breaks the simple uniformity (logistics, behavior, physical capabilities etc) that it requires. Like I said before, if the cons outweigh the pros...like ANYTHING else in the military, it should be vetoed. It's not about feelings, it's not that I am sexist, its just asking what's the best to get the job done.

I dot get how people can look at football or hockey and say they understand why there's no females there, but they can look at an infantry battalion and say there's a spot for them there. The standards are already different for support roles between men and women. Bars are lower, times are slower, requirements for excercise tests are different. Now people want to let "onesies and twosies" go for infantry? It's a much more chaotic and physically demanding lifestyle than support roles.
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Unread 11-05-2012, 07:34 AM   #87
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Uniformity huh? So all male Marines are the same size and get the same score on the fitness tests? This is a bogus argument.


As for lack of moral discipline I am sad to hear that the Marines are incapable of this. Yes there are some who fail to live up to standards but you should weed them out not use them as an excuse.
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Unread 11-05-2012, 11:43 AM   #88
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I think this discussion is just proof there is a cultural difference in the services.
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Unread 11-06-2012, 02:57 AM   #89
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Uniformity huh? So all male Marines are the same size and get the same score on the fitness tests? This is a bogus argument.


As for lack of moral discipline I am sad to hear that the Marines are incapable of this. Yes there are some who fail to live up to standards but you should weed them out not use them as an excuse.
Uniformity is not a bogus argument when you consider support services already have different standards. Whatever their physical needs are, infantry requires more. We aren't talking about moving tri walls at the flight line with a fork truck. We are talking miles of hikes with mk19s or M2s or other various crap The infantryman average is the uniformity. The logistical requirements for conducting combat operations is where you'll find uniformity. I don't know any of you or what you have done, but many who argue against this stayed at fobs. Many may of conducted operations, but chances are it was out of some sort of fob. During raids, establishing new grounds, or conducting all mobile operations is already a logistical nightmare.

Lastly, anyone who thinks thounsands of young men deprived of 'normal' college years lives and taught the art of battle will all be the spitshined example a gentleman... is out of touch with reality. It never has been that way and probably never will. Even Eleanor Roosevelt knew that.
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Unread 11-06-2012, 03:16 AM   #90
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I'm just going to be even more of a devils advocate here.

Who here is ok with a man hitting a woman?

Probably no one. The courts certainly aren't. Why? Because in those cases "a man should know his physical strengths enough to know its not ok to hit a woman." Lets look at basic hand to hand combat. A good old fistfight. How would an average female in the military hold up in a regular fistfight with a average guy in the infantry? I bet almost every day someone in an infantry unit decks another soldier or Marine. I also bet nothing happens aside from a handshake later. What would the media do if they got wind of an infantryman hitting an infantry woman? Thats how you know we aren't ready for it.

Before anyone says "sounds like a bunch of barbaric morons with no discipline..." step back to reality. This is real. As an infantryman, you need to be able to put another man on his face. It's one thing at the 'bricks' but downrange 5'5 120lb (without gear) LCpl. Whatshername is going to have a way harder time doing so than your average guy.
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