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Unread 04-20-2012, 09:57 PM   #31
Ross
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Originally Posted by 5-90 View Post
Male musculature is prominent from roughly the iliac crests of the pelvis up, while female musculature is more prominent from roughly the diaphragm down. Part and parcel of the sexual dimorphism of H. sapiens

This is a biological difference, but far from insurmountable. Learning the mechanics of one's own body can enable one to do things that most other people would think you can't do - and even to do things that you yourself didn't think you could do.

The problem women would have with carrying a load would not be strength or endurance in the legs or lower trunk, but in the back and shoulders.

This can be handled by modifying their exercise programme - but not modifying physical standard (my wife's hobby is working in the yard, spends a lot of time with a spade. You'd be surprised at the power she has in her upper body - the only thing that really restricts her WRT load carrying is that she doesn't have a lot of experience rigging a load onto her person, nor a lot of training. We've been working on the latter, and this small 56-year-old woman can carry more than most women half her age, and carry it longer. After having had a new right knee and new right hip put in! Hell, she can carry more than most men roughly her size and half her age, now. Hell, she's 5'2" and can haul my 300# arse around if she needs to!)

Biological differences are not insurmountable differences - they need to be accounted for in personal training, but that doesn't mean that gender norming needs to happen, nor that PFT standards should be relaxed.

And women don't need to look like female bodybuilders (grotesque!) to meet unisex PFTs, as long as those standards are not falsely elevated with an eye toward keeping women out of those fields. (And I don't wish to sound like I'm just knocking female bodybuilders - frankly, I think most male bodybuilders look freakish as well. I've nothing against women being fit, muscular, or athletic - but simple "definition" is plenty. I honestly don't think anyone looks good "cut" or "ripped"...)

@Ambugrl - I wonder if this isn't a common dislike among women? My wife is also only bothered by bogies - she didn't have any trouble when I was getting my thumb sewn back on, didn't have any trouble when I got all busted up from being hit by a car, and tends to joke with the surgical staff when under a sedated local and likes to watch arthroscopies (on her!) in a mirror or - if she's lucky and they're set up for that - on a monitor. (Medical imagery and such fascinates me as well - I've gone in for ultrasounds, and made the tech turn the screen so I can see. I like to look at raw CT and MRI imaging on myself whenever possible. I used to enjoy watching surgery on university TV stations - I learned a great deal that way.)
Have you ever humped a mortar base plate, radio and extra batteries, all your crap and a few mortar rounds up and other anything?

Your wife may be great with a shovel. Women can get strong, but basic is only about 9 weeks long and another aprox 4 weeks for Infantry AIT.

Biological differences may not be insurmountable, but time is perish. No point spending time where you don't need to.
I am now a training developer for the Military, time is something we have very little of and have to make the best us of it as possible.


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Unread 04-21-2012, 02:32 AM   #32
5-90
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Have you ever humped a mortar base plate, radio and extra batteries, all your crap and a few mortar rounds up and other anything?

Your wife may be great with a shovel. Women can get strong, but basic is only about 9 weeks long and another aprox 4 weeks for Infantry AIT.

Biological differences may not be insurmountable, but time is perish. No point spending time where you don't need to.
I am now a training developer for the Military, time is something we have very little of and have to make the best us of it as possible.
Mortar base plate? No.

SATCOM radio, spare batteries, weapons, ammo, explosives, and two weeks' worth of gear? Oh, yes.

It should probably be borne in mind that most people don't just up and enllist - it is a commitment, and not something that should be entered into lightly (it's not like getting a part-time job.)

Most people who really do want to enlist usually have thought about it for some time - and taken the time to prepare for it. If they haven't, they deserve to wash out of training.

Honestly, I don't think anyone should enlist with the idea of "getting fit" - and training should reflect that. PFTs are public information and readily accessible (moreso than when you or I signed up!) and if you can't meet the PFTs, you should not be accepted.

Does this sound Draconian? I offer no apology. As I said earlier, signing up for the Armed Forces isn't like getting a job somewhere - and military training should focus on military matters. Take the time to get into shape - whoever you are - before you ship to Basic.
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Unread 04-21-2012, 06:02 AM   #33
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Where is the front line in Afgan???? just wondering we not fighting like we did years ago. Hell im willing to bet it safer to be a grunt then a truck driver or running gun truck. If I was a grunt you couldnt see me coming but my truck you and hear me for miles then all the lights just aim and push the botton.

Im a E-5 in the US Army I am Airborne and a Truck Driver. But this is last time I want to talk about work. Im going back to want keeps me sane while driving truck in the green zone country on Afgan .
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Unread 04-21-2012, 07:44 AM   #34
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Cause, we aren't discussing females in combat roles, rather females in the grunts.

I may not have fought in the jungles of Vietnam or Laos but i have fought in Iraq for almost two years of my life. My unit secured oil fields during the invasion and then we later we fought house to house in Iraq in search oh Al-Zarqawi. I may have returned home after 6 and then 8 months of fighting but I'm sure we have both held our brothers while they lay dying waiting for a medvac.

I have done squad rushes in the open deserts of Iraq after the Army called us as soon as they got contact from the enemy and left to make sure they got back in time to get to the chow hall before it closed.

I've been shot at by 10-14 year old kids in Africa and due to our ROE's we could not fire back.

Regardless of someone's combat experience, serving in the infantry is about as non pc as it gets. Hell, watching how they behave one would think most are gay due to the grab *** that is played. The stuff that comes out of their mouths is even more vulgar and vile then I think most non military people can ever fathom.

My point is what happens the first time a female is out in the field and comes across a grunt making a fighting hole baby? Or what happens when she is in the barracks and grunts come clearing room in nothing but gas masks? It's not that females can't take pain or don't have the ability to pull the trigger, its all the other stuff that surrounds the infantry.
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Unread 04-21-2012, 11:52 AM   #35
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My point is what happens the first time a female is out in the field and comes across a grunt making a fighting hole baby? Or what happens when she is in the barracks and grunts come clearing room in nothing but gas masks? It's not that females can't take pain or don't have the ability to pull the trigger, its all the other stuff that surrounds the infantry.
Really? Really??? That is the point? You guys are completely showing how ridiculously immature and naive you are. Stop chasing attention seeking, low self-esteem little girls who pretend they actually need you to protect them.
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Unread 04-21-2012, 01:01 PM   #36
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Really? Really??? That is the point? You guys are completely showing how ridiculously immature and naive you are. Stop chasing attention seeking, low self-esteem little girls who pretend they actually need you to protect them.
How is what I said naive? It's the truth. Most grunts are aged 19-23.... Think about it.
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Unread 04-21-2012, 01:23 PM   #37
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How is what I said naive? It's the truth. Most grunts are aged 19-23.... Think about it.
Because a real woman doesn't need a man to protect her. Instead, she has men (many men lol) that want to protect her. If you haven't learned that lesson yet, you are naive.
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Unread 04-21-2012, 01:44 PM   #38
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I'm not the biggest fan of it just for selfish reasons. I also remember that we used to not let blacks in combat roles and nothing but good came from that. Really tho we'll never know till we try it. Equality is for everyone, not just some.
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Unread 04-21-2012, 01:58 PM   #39
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Because a real woman doesn't need a man to protect her. Instead, she has men (many men lol) that want to protect her. If you haven't learned that lesson yet, you are naive.
Sarcasm dully noted.
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Unread 04-21-2012, 02:22 PM   #40
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Where is the front line in Afgan???? just wondering we not fighting like we did years ago. Hell im willing to bet it safer to be a grunt then a truck driver or running gun truck. If I was a grunt you couldnt see me coming but my truck you and hear me for miles then all the lights just aim and push the botton.

Im a E-5 in the US Army I am Airborne and a Truck Driver. But this is last time I want to talk about work. Im going back to want keeps me sane while driving truck in the green zone country on Afgan .
You are right when you say there really isn't a "front line", because even FOBS and occupied areas get attacked all the time. Being a driver is VERY dangerous and if all you do is drive most of the time, you are definitely in danger and it your right in feeling the way you do. I was in the complete opposite position, our unit for some reason didn't believe in trucks it seemed like. Even when our objective was 3+ clicks away we always seemed to just walk there either staggered or wedged and that in itself was exhausting. But we definitely had a "front line" of our own. We'd push through it and have a whole new one. Of course there wasn't like an established front line for everyone in the war but ours was where the kiowas and A10's were blowing their load. So that makes me feel like I was on the front line for most of the tour. Because we pushed hem back and back and back until we could set up a COP where they used to shoot their 82's at us. They would always see us coming too, maybe not as likely as being in an mrap or Stryker but regardless, they always saw us first, and please admit that you feel safer in a truck on or around highway one than you do on foot walking through the farmlands....
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Unread 04-21-2012, 02:36 PM   #41
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To add to my above post, we've hit IEDs and contact in trucks too, and atleast you have a chance of surviving... Our entire wpns squad was taken out in one dismounted IED, and the contact following the blast did a number on us too, having 2 gunteams down.. Our company had 65 purple hearts, 14 KIA, and quite a few dudes that aren't right in the head today. We felt helpless sometimes because we didn't have trucks. We wondered why every other unit used them and why their numbers were the same as when they showed up. I agree that in a truck your a sitting duck sometimes but atleast you have a chance at surviving IEDs and small arms fire. I'm not trying to argue with you or offend you either just simply sharing my own experience as a leg.
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Unread 04-21-2012, 11:15 PM   #42
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Sarcasm dully noted.
You believe that was sarcasm? Stupidity dully noted.
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Unread 04-21-2012, 11:31 PM   #43
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Army 11b here. As of now not yet combat tested but it shouldn't be too long. I've been hearing this discussion since joined. If a woman can do my job then more power to her. I've been outlifted by a woman once, won't be living that down for a while. I'm sure there are women out there who are capable of being infantry. Theres a lot of men in the infantry that just suck. They can't run, ruck, lift, shoot, etc. Some of them end up in coist. I would rather have an able bodied woman fighting beside me than a little *****. As for the idea of having to protect our women in a fire fight the best thing I can do for anyone in my element is just do my job. Meat is meat. Casualties are casualties. Best of luck to the sgt in kabul. Keep your eyes open and come home safe.
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Unread 04-22-2012, 12:54 AM   #44
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You believe that was sarcasm? Stupidity dully noted.
Have you been to college? What was your gpa if you have been?

Even better, I'll relate this directly to the op's original question.... When you graduated Infantry School, what number did you graduate? I was 3rd academically out of 250ish and finished 6th overall
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Unread 04-22-2012, 07:30 AM   #45
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Have you been to college? What was your gpa if you have been?

Even better, I'll relate this directly to the op's original question.... When you graduated Infantry School, what number did you graduate? I was 3rd academically out of 250ish and finished 6th overall
This has zero to do with intelligence. This isn't something you pick up in a book and learn. It takes a special level of ignorance or maybe arrogance to believe you know what someone else is capable of. That you can take one look and based on some physical characteristic imply that person isn't good enough. To think you know what they can or cannot handle.

I'll put this another way because it's obvious you are a proud marine as you should be. How do you feel about disabled soldiers? Men who have lost limbs and are incapacitated in some way or another? Should they be allowed to continue fighting? I won't put words in your mouth but I'm pretty sure what your feelings about that are. Something tells me you wouldn't have the audacity to tell one of them they shouldn't be on the front lines with you. It takes flawed thinking, some type of bigotry or prejudice to recognize that heart in one person and not another based on some physical bias you have. It takes effort to be that blind. Trying to keep this out of PRC, but it needs to be said. Sexual discrimination is all this. Dress it up any way you want to feel better about yourself.

To answer your question I didn't go to college. Like I said at the beginning this isn't something you pick up and learn in a book. So if you feel the need to whip out willies and compare that's cool. I already stated that I went through the Navy Nuclear Propulsion pipeline. Can google it or take my word for it but it's considered one of the hardest academic courses in the country. 19 out of an initial starting class of 250ish sounds sounds about right. They even thought I was smart enough to go back and teach.
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