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Unread 04-20-2012, 12:55 PM   #16
Maximus856
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Originally Posted by AmbuGrl View Post
We ARE NOT given the opportunity. Take your minority opinion elsewhere. If you notice a majority of these responses are from MEN who believe that WE should at least be given the opportunity.
Ok, men from what branch and what MOS? Why has no one asked many of the infantryman what they think of it? A big thing for an infantry mission is "what is the mission, what do we gain vs. what do we lose? And whatever we lose is it worth the gain." So far, no one as answered what we gain aside from hearing stories of this girl or that girl being a badass, and that it will be "equal," with women holding the title of being infantry. Personal gain of the individual does not constitute a gain for the overall misison. I however have posed a of number risks. Might not always be a certainty, but still a risk. If this were a mission, it'd be a no go. If it's such a surefire thing that girls will perform as well as the men, or that the infantry has to gain from them being there, then why is it such a controversial subject?

A few more things I thought of. If the oppurtunity is given, will it be on a volunteer basis? Because as well all know that yes, men have the oppurtunity to sign for it if they want it, and most of the time get it. But there are men who DO NOT want to do it but have to. Will this be the case for women? A recurring theme amongst proponents is "if they want to volunteer for it, let them." If we're trying to make things all sorts of fair here, then will there be an option to NOT do infantry if you choose not too?

On that note, I think if it is to go through it needs to based on more then just peoples opinion. Take a platoons worth of men in Infantry training battalion with no further training, and put a platoons worth of females through Infantry Training Battalion. Now have them war game just as EVERYTHING ELSE is before it is fielded. Check the results and proceed from there. Im not talking about putting your best up against the regulars. Because guess what, the infantry is nothing but a mix mosh of people. So just to be clear, take your regular ITB grads, put a platoon of regular enlisted female and see how it goes. It needs to be all angles, from full kit runs, casevacs, mounted/unmounted, etc.

After that it needs to be "fair." If females out perform or equal to the males, then by all means let them in. But if they don't, sorry it cant be "well pick from the best here from the females, but all of you guys are still staying infantry." And TRUST ME, the Corps gets what it needs. And if it needs a spot to fill in the infantry they will find a guy no matter how competant. Think it will be the same for girls?


Just as a disclaimer, I dont want to try to make any 'e-enemies' here. I have nothing against any of you guys OR girls. Like I said, this was going to piss people off, but I didnt say which side.. haha. You all have your opinion and I have mine. Not knowing any of you, I dont know what your opinion is backed by. In regards to this topic, I do know that mine is back by being in both ends of the Corps. Infantryman, and working with females in an Intel unit. Many of them have helped the missions we had numerous times in big ways. I don't want to discredit any females in the military here at all. I've had a few friends (females) join the Corps, helped "recruit" one of them and did so with no negative feelings about her being a girl. I do however speak my peice as being an 0311 who was more-so surrouned by other 03's.

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Unread 04-20-2012, 01:14 PM   #17
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I'm a former Marine grunt and i say a big fat hell no
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Unread 04-20-2012, 01:24 PM   #18
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Im just a pog but women having been driving trucks for long time and being MP's. Dont think i could get many guys to ride with me might as well put a big target on the side. That said im in a gun truck now and my gunner is a female. Bet she can out shoot anyone on here....Hurry though I only have a few more months in Afgan.
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Unread 04-20-2012, 01:26 PM   #19
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We ARE NOT given the opportunity. Take your minority opinion elsewhere. If you notice a majority of these responses are from MEN who believe that WE should at least be given the opportunity.
I would not want women in a combat role only because of the potential sexual tension between them and the males and what we know happens to them when they become POWs.

I'm of the opinion that if a woman can meet the same standard as a man then she deserves the same chance at the job. I don't think its fair when there's a lower standard for a woman to get the same job. That's not equality.

But when it comes to facing the enemy the idea is to inflict enough pain that their people lose the will to fight. Female marines on the front line would absolutely be a benefit, no doubt, but its just too risky to give the enemy an opportunity to inflict that much pain.

Edited for spelling
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Unread 04-20-2012, 01:29 PM   #20
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Women might be new to the grunts but not the front line.
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Unread 04-20-2012, 02:07 PM   #21
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I would not want women in a combat role only because of the potential sexual tension between them and the males and what we know happens to them when they become POWs.

I'm of the opinion that if a woman can meet the same standard as a man then she deserves the same chance at the job. I don't think its fair when there's a lower standard for a woman to get the same job. That's not equality.

But when it comes to facing the enemy the idea is to inflict enough pain that their people lose the will to fight. Female marines on the front line would absolutely be a benefit, no doubt, but its just too risky to give the enemy an opportunity to inflict that much pain.

Edited for spelling
Again, don't forget they are already there. FETS are doing a pretty decent job of that already. We are talking of integrating them into infantry and other combat arms units.
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Unread 04-20-2012, 02:24 PM   #22
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Ok, men from what branch and what MOS? Why has no one asked many of the infantryman what they think of it? A big thing for an infantry mission is "what is the mission, what do we gain vs. what do we lose? And whatever we lose is it worth the gain." So far, no one as answered what we gain aside from hearing stories of this girl or that girl being a badass, and that it will be "equal," with women holding the title of being infantry. Personal gain of the individual does not constitute a gain for the overall misison. I however have posed a of number risks. Might not always be a certainty, but still a risk. If this were a mission, it'd be a no go. If it's such a surefire thing that girls will perform as well as the men, or that the infantry has to gain from them being there, then why is it such a controversial subject?
They have run polls through ALL of the branches of the Armed Services, just because you 'never gots asked' doesnt mean it hasnt happened. Pick up a newspaper, newsgram or the Navy Times etc (for your branch), oh wait you can get a Navy times. This subject has been talk of debates for dozens of years, long before you ever even considered joining most likely. Women were not really recruited into the service for 'combat'. We were building planes and working in the medical field. As times change, they are trying to change that. Thats how we have women in such a variety of roles now.

What do you gain and what do you lose? You lose nothing, you gain additional bodies and resources to complete the tasks at hand.

It has ALWAYS been a controversial subject. Alot of the things that men have brought up in the past have been that it would be harder to see a female killed than another man (esp if they had a good relationship with their mom), not to say that a man dying is easy, but men generally see women in the 'mommy' 'daughter' 'sister' light vs a fellow service member. Most men were raised to protect women and that was another issue/concern. In the field you cant put your life out there for a female in the same role as a man as you would for any other male counterpart. There are dozens of similiar disputes and reasonings, if you take the time to review that data, finding etc.

You have not provided any data to support your statements, only opinion, to which each person is entitled one. We all have one. You dont have to like them or agree with them, but if they are put into action, you do have to tolerate them or get out.

Just a little info to share, there are over 13 countries that have openly used women in active combatant roles.
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Unread 04-20-2012, 02:36 PM   #23
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"Alot of the things that men have brought up in the past have been that it would be harder to see a female killed than another man"

As a leader it would be tough to see any of my soliders killed we roll through Kabul all the time. There is no grunts leading the way or any other COMBAT ARMS. Just a bunch of 88m POGS trying to get everyone. There food bullets and what ever else makes you guys happy. There is no more front line you leave that FOB you and everyone else is at risk.
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Unread 04-20-2012, 03:26 PM   #24
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3)Again, what I have seen from the various females while during my enlistment. There were a couple that could whip my *** in PT. I wont deny them that. How fast you run though is not a standard of how you perform carrying someone in fullgear to a helicopter. How many here have done that? It is not easy.
Sometimes we hold onto our beliefs so strong and blindly that we contradict our own common sense. Think you can help me understand how excluding women is not denying them the opportunity? If PT standards doesn't measure up to the rigors of the actual job, then how can we tell if someone can? Let them try. So are you just paying me lip service here so that you don't appear sexist, or are you really this wishy-washy on your stance?

Didn't answer your question before. I was a machinist's mate in the Navy. I don't think it really translates over to the Marines. I don't believe you have many enginerooms. Think about all the movies where they go down into the engineroom and people are working on heavy machinery. However from my previous post, this was a field held exclusively by men up to 20 years ago.

Reiterating what Ambugirl said, this discussion isn't new. Which was the point I was trying to make. You're right that our jobs is comparing apples to oranges. Yet your well thought out, valid reasons are the same stereotypical BS responses that has constantly been proven to be false time and time again. These were the same strong sentiments echoed in the past in various fields that women excel in today. Exactly the same, word for word. Do you have any problems with women serving on combat ships? Given your age, and your stance on FETS more than likely not. Because that battle was fought and over with before you were a twinkle in your father's eye.

You're bringing nothing new to the discussion. Which maybe why you're getting so many negative responses. (well except for the guy who is of your same generation) Beating a dead horse, if you want a real discussion I would suggest reading up on the history of women in combat arms first. Because most people here are talking so far ahead of you that your'e not grasping what's being said. That's not meant as a slam, but everything you are stating is an opinion with no actual proof to back it up. Well there is actual data and proof, but it just says you're wrong. I'm sure you have heard the quote about those who forget history . . . Come up with some other idea or reasoning that hasn't been repeatedly proven false in the past.
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Unread 04-20-2012, 04:04 PM   #25
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Im getting out, because in 10 years when I'm a platoon sgt, i dont want to worry about the problems that the army will have when the let girls be grunts and homosexuals be officers and nco's... I do not hate gays nor do I hate females but in the infantry you walk around with your junk hanging out cause your pants rip, you fart and burp then laugh, you tell jokes about ****ed up **** and you work harder than anyone else. You push your body to its limit and then go even further. You see about 20 other naked dudes a day and I want the men to my left and right scanning their sectors, not my ***. the infantry is unlike any other job in the military, because you don't have to worry about offending people, everyone's got thick skin.
Not to mention the physical demands... How many women do you know that can walk 2 clicks through pashmul afghanistan carrying sometimes up to 80 lbs of Gear and then get ambushed and have to throw another equally equipped soldier on their back and run for 600 meters? And the wipe the blood off their handmike and tell the squads to turn around and moveback to contact. Are these women ready to carry the burnt organs and hamburger meat of their best friends back to the ccp and say here's what's left of my teamleader... I don't see it as a positive impact on the infantry. Lead, follow, or get the **** out of the way.
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Unread 04-20-2012, 04:14 PM   #26
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I have read every post in here. A varied amount of opinions from several of mostly the same 'now' generation. And I would guess from a good number of those without any 'combat' experience.
I'll try to 'qualify' myself with you and express an opinion from what could only be desribed as an old grunt.
To 'qualify' myself as to having a bit more than average 'combat' experience... A good number of people on this site know me, for those who don't, accept these as my qualifications. My 'time' was in the mid '60's to early '70's. An 11b, airborne ranger qualified, my 'duty' was as a LRRP, three years in a relatively hostile environment, that was three straight years without returning to the States. During that time I collected two Air Medals (for a number of helo combat assults), four ACM's 3 with a V device one for 'meritorius', three BSM's all with a V device, three PH's and a Silver Star... this should be sufficient to assure you of any question of quantity of experience in a 'combat' situation.
Now for my 'qualified' opinion. At my 'time' there were no female combatants, ...on our side! But I can assure you there were no gender lines drawn on the other. If anyone of you believe a woman/female is not capable of assuming a 'combat' role, think again. I have no 'statistics' to present but I do have the experience of firsthand knowledge that at least 20% or higher of the othersides 'bodycount' were women. Very capable of performing the same tasks as their Brothers in arms. What would make any of you think that a like trained US Military Soldier female would be any less efficient and or effective than the 5'-0 or less 100lb. adversary was that assisted in the killing of over 58,000 American MEN. In retrospect, I do not believe gender would of made any difference to me at the time. If they (females) can qualify using the same measures as for a man, they would/should be provided the opportunity. No one knows untill exposed to the chaotic dangers of actual 'combat' how any individual will react. Thinking that simply by gender a person/soldier would break in a stressfull combat role is erroneous thinking. I have witnessed a highly trained 6-3, 240 former Pro football player turned soldier curl up in a fetal position and uncontollably cry at his first firefight. Would I have prefferred a woman in his place, at that time I would not of cared what was between their legs, hell yes.
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Unread 04-20-2012, 04:23 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by nickmonaco
Are these women ready to carry the burnt organs and hamburger meat of their best friends back to the ccp and say here's what's left of my teamleader... I don't see it as a positive impact on the infantry. Lead, follow, or get the **** out of the way.
I am a paramedic. Been there done that. Take me on any given day. The answer is yes. Yes I know what the smell of burt flesh and burning hair is like. I didnt enter the family friendly field of EMS because I was afraid of it. Nor do the other female medics that I work with.

Dont try to use blood and guts as an excuse for a woman not to be front line. I have seen grown *** Marines cry like a baby at the first site of a needle and pass out during an injection. I can only imagine how THOSE particular MEN would be in the situation you mentioned.

Im not afraid of the blood, protruding organs, broken bones coming out of an extremity etc. What I dont like and grosses me out though.















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Unread 04-20-2012, 07:43 PM   #28
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3)..... How fast you run though is not a standard of how you perform carrying someone in fullgear to a helicopter. How many here have done that? It is not easy.
I would be willing to bet far more many times than most anyone else here.
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Unread 04-20-2012, 08:24 PM   #29
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My first unit was light infantry. My ruck weighed about 80 plus lbs. We rucked up to 25 miles at a time. When I went to PLDC (E-5) we had women with us. They had problems carrying a light ruck and 249's for more than even a few miles.

I know there are some very strong able bodied women but in general men have much greater upper body strength.

Other than that I don't think there would be a problem, but I just can't see a female mortar squad moving very far very fast.

If they can be in postions where weight is not an issue I don't see any problem.
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Unread 04-20-2012, 08:42 PM   #30
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My first unit was light infantry. My ruck weighed about 80 plus lbs. We rucked up to 25 miles at a time. When I went to PLDC (E-5) we had women with us. They had problems carrying a light ruck and 249's for more than even a few miles.

I know there are some very strong able bodied women but in general men have much greater upper body strength.

Other than that I don't think there would be a problem, but I just can't see a female mortar squad moving very far very fast.

If they can be in postions where weight is not an issue I don't see any problem.
Male musculature is prominent from roughly the iliac crests of the pelvis up, while female musculature is more prominent from roughly the diaphragm down. Part and parcel of the sexual dimorphism of H. sapiens

This is a biological difference, but far from insurmountable. Learning the mechanics of one's own body can enable one to do things that most other people would think you can't do - and even to do things that you yourself didn't think you could do.

The problem women would have with carrying a load would not be strength or endurance in the legs or lower trunk, but in the back and shoulders.

This can be handled by modifying their exercise programme - but not modifying physical standard (my wife's hobby is working in the yard, spends a lot of time with a spade. You'd be surprised at the power she has in her upper body - the only thing that really restricts her WRT load carrying is that she doesn't have a lot of experience rigging a load onto her person, nor a lot of training. We've been working on the latter, and this small 56-year-old woman can carry more than most women half her age, and carry it longer. After having had a new right knee and new right hip put in! Hell, she can carry more than most men roughly her size and half her age, now. Hell, she's 5'2" and can haul my 300# arse around if she needs to!)

Biological differences are not insurmountable differences - they need to be accounted for in personal training, but that doesn't mean that gender norming needs to happen, nor that PFT standards should be relaxed.

And women don't need to look like female bodybuilders (grotesque!) to meet unisex PFTs, as long as those standards are not falsely elevated with an eye toward keeping women out of those fields. (And I don't wish to sound like I'm just knocking female bodybuilders - frankly, I think most male bodybuilders look freakish as well. I've nothing against women being fit, muscular, or athletic - but simple "definition" is plenty. I honestly don't think anyone looks good "cut" or "ripped"...)

@Ambugrl - I wonder if this isn't a common dislike among women? My wife is also only bothered by bogies - she didn't have any trouble when I was getting my thumb sewn back on, didn't have any trouble when I got all busted up from being hit by a car, and tends to joke with the surgical staff when under a sedated local and likes to watch arthroscopies (on her!) in a mirror or - if she's lucky and they're set up for that - on a monitor. (Medical imagery and such fascinates me as well - I've gone in for ultrasounds, and made the tech turn the screen so I can see. I like to look at raw CT and MRI imaging on myself whenever possible. I used to enjoy watching surgery on university TV stations - I learned a great deal that way.)
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