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Unread 03-02-2011, 05:45 PM   #16
09_Silver
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Location: Ogden, UT
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I had to resurrect this thread because I finally bought and installed the K&N intake for my 09 Liberty! Install was a piece of cake even though there were a lot more steps than I was expecting. I bought the kit from Amazon for $230 shipped.

As far as performance I noticed a difference immediately. Throttle response is much better. Just installed it last night so I'll have to report on gas mileage later. The sound that comes from the engine now is a lot better in my opinion. Has more of a growl now, but nothing crazy. It looks great in the engine bay. I also bought a drycharger to protect the filter from mud/water splashing up and also keeps the filter clean for a longer period of time. The dryfilter you can pull off, hose it down, let it dry and slap it back on. I'll report back after doing some offroading near St. George, UT this weekend.

I would highly recommend this kit. It DID make a significant difference in power, nothing crazy but you definitely notice it. Worth it imo.

As far as warranty goes K&N actually includes a little card with the kit that you keep in your glovebox. It basically says that if a service provider claims that their intake was the cause of any problem to have them call this number and they will back up their product and fight for you. There is also documentation online that I posted earlier in this thread that shows very strong evidence that even an over oiled filter will not cause any problems. I have talked to my dealership about this and they recognize that the K&N is a quality product and they will still honor the warranty.

Also it's important to note that all aftermarket intakes are not equal. My other car is a 2008 Cobalt SS and several good companies have attempted to make a short ram and cold air intake for it. Every one of them has had big problems. K&N is the only one that really works, adds power, and doesn't mess up the fuel trims. Everyone on cobaltss.net is now trying to get rid of their other intakes and get the K&N.

@tjkj2002
More flow, or more accurately, less restricted flow does not equal more dirt in your engine. More surface area due to the cone design of the filter allows more air flow with the same amount of filtering.

Sorry if this was too long winded! Hope this helps somebody.

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Unread 03-02-2011, 05:59 PM   #17
tjkj2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 09_Silver View Post
I had to resurrect this thread because I finally bought and installed the K&N intake for my 09 Liberty! Install was a piece of cake even though there were a lot more steps than I was expecting. I bought the kit from Amazon for $230 shipped.

As far as performance I noticed a difference immediately. Throttle response is much better. Just installed it last night so I'll have to report on gas mileage later. The sound that comes from the engine now is a lot better in my opinion. Has more of a growl now, but nothing crazy. It looks great in the engine bay. I also bought a drycharger to protect the filter from mud/water splashing up and also keeps the filter clean for a longer period of time. The dryfilter you can pull off, hose it down, let it dry and slap it back on. I'll report back after doing some offroading near St. George, UT this weekend.

I would highly recommend this kit. It DID make a significant difference in power, nothing crazy but you definitely notice it. Worth it imo.

As far as warranty goes K&N actually includes a little card with the kit that you keep in your glovebox. It basically says that if a service provider claims that their intake was the cause of any problem to have them call this number and they will back up their product and fight for you. There is also documentation online that I posted earlier in this thread that shows very strong evidence that even an over oiled filter will not cause any problems. I have talked to my dealership about this and they recognize that the K&N is a quality product and they will still honor the warranty.

Also it's important to note that all aftermarket intakes are not equal. My other car is a 2008 Cobalt SS and several good companies have attempted to make a short ram and cold air intake for it. Every one of them has had big problems. K&N is the only one that really works, adds power, and doesn't mess up the fuel trims. Everyone on cobaltss.net is now trying to get rid of their other intakes and get the K&N.

@tjkj2002
More flow, or more accurately, less restricted flow does not equal more dirt in your engine. More surface area due to the cone design of the filter allows more air flow with the same amount of filtering.

Sorry if this was too long winded! Hope this helps somebody.
Yeah guess all those MAF sensor I replace due to K&N's is a fluke.Many state clearly in there manual that no oiled air filters are to be used for this very issue.

Give it about 1 week and the PCM will learn around that filter and you will be back at the same power and mpg's anyways.You also will notice in about 2-3 oil changes that your oil is alot dirter then it used to be also,that is all the dirt it allows into the engine that a non-oiled filter actually traps.
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Unread 03-02-2011, 06:15 PM   #18
09_Silver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjkj2002 View Post
Yeah guess all those MAF sensor I replace due to K&N's is a fluke.Many state clearly in there manual that no oiled air filters are to be used for this very issue.

Give it about 1 week and the PCM will learn around that filter and you will be back at the same power and mpg's anyways.You also will notice in about 2-3 oil changes that your oil is alot dirter then it used to be also,that is all the dirt it allows into the engine that a non-oiled filter actually traps.
I can't speak to your specific cases, but I've used K&N oiled filters in many vehicles for extended periods of time with great results and no problems.

Did you check out the links I posted previously? Here is what K&N does when they get a MAF sensor that has failed and it was suspected that their filter was the culprit:

"When K&N obtains a MAF sensor in question, our laboratory technicians:
• Inspect it under a microscope to screen for contamination that may be present
• Electrically test for MAF sensor failure by confirming output calibration readings.
• Perform chemical analysis of sensors to determine the source of the contamination where any is present.
• Audit chemical analysis through work with an independent laboratory.
• Interact directly with the dealership involved to supplement with additional facts."

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure dealerships or local mechanics don't perform that detailed of an analysis. They see the K&N filter and immediately decide it's the problem.

Here's the link to their findings. A very interesting read:

http://www.knfilters.com/MAF/massairfindings.htm

Here's their consumer protection pledge:

"We want to make sure that when you buy a K&N Lifetime Air Filter or Air Intake System, you can be confident your vehicle's warranty will not be impacted. We also want you to feel confident that even if you experience a difficult dealership, we will step-in and resolve the issue, so you won't have to. Therefore, we make the following Pledge:

K&N pledges to our customers that they will not be taken advantage of and charged for a repair due to a dealership warranty denial blamed on the presence of a K&N product.

Steven Rogers, CEO
Consumers buy aftermarket products for many reasons; higher quality, added performance, visual appeal, work requirements or just as a way to be different. The Car Companies do not like aftermarket products and never have. They believe consumers should only buy their parts. There is a battle going on for your freedom of choice and that freedom is being threatened by a number of wolves dressed in sheep’s clothing. Be it in the name of emissions standards, public safety, warranty requirements, or dependence on foreign oil, all these worthy causes may be used as a reason to reduce your right to choose and force you to buy only O/E Parts. That’s why on virtually every aftermarket company's web site; you will see a reference to the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, a law needed to protect your right to buy non-O/E parts. There has even been a bill introduced recently in Congress called the “Right to Repair Act,” a bill designed to protect your right to have your vehicle serviced by an independent repair facility.

A frustrating problem we occasionally face is service technicians making false or unsubstantiated claims about aftermarket products, even something as standard as a K&N air filter going in the factory air box. These false allegations may then be used as a reason to deny a legitimate warranty claim and force a consumer to pay money when they should not. We are horrified that the presence of aftermarket products could in rare instances be used as an excuse for taking advantage of a consumer. In all instances we have experienced so far, the dealership’s position is mere speculation unsupported by any evidence. However, the dealership is in the “power position” and more often than not, they will win this unfair fight with a consumer, who needs their vehicle back. We are going to balance the scales a bit. We will use our resources to make the consumer whole and challenge the dealership. See warranty page for details."
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Unread 03-02-2011, 08:41 PM   #19
tjkj2002
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Found this little bit in a Ford owners manual..............

Quote:
tampering with the vehicle, tampering with the emissions systems or
with the other parts that affect these systems (for example, but not
limited to exhaust and intake systems)
And right out of your '09 KK's warranty manual...................

Quote:
Performance or racing parts are considered to be
non-Chrysler parts. Repairs or adjustments caused
by their use are not covered under your warranties.

Good luck with K&N helping you out.
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Unread 03-03-2011, 05:57 AM   #20
ds6310
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I don't see how an aftermarket air filter could be considered a performance/racing part. It's merely a reusable air filter.
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Unread 03-03-2011, 06:54 AM   #21
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you are talking about drop in air filter, they are talking about the whole assembly. but even the drop in would allow more air to be sucked in, in terms of ECU more air - more fuel and it will decrease your mileage. also your understanding of performance/racing part is not necessarily similar to the dealers. im not sure if reusable drop in filter is classified as a performance upgrade or not, but changing whole air intake assembly sure is a performance upgrade
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Unread 03-03-2011, 09:44 AM   #22
tjkj2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ds6310 View Post
I don't see how an aftermarket air filter could be considered a performance/racing part. It's merely a reusable air filter.
K&N labels and sells all the filters as "performance" upgrades,it's there whole marketing plot.
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Unread 03-03-2011, 12:59 PM   #23
09_Silver
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It's definitely a performance part. I'm not worried about it at all. I have a good relationship with my Jeep dealership and they actually recommended to me that I add the K&N intake to help with power and gas mileage. Several of the techs have done the same thing to their vehicles.

"Performance or racing parts are considered to be
non-Chrysler parts. Repairs or adjustments caused
by their use are not covered under your warranties."

Pretty much any manual for any car says this. It gets sticky when they try to tell you that the intake caused the problem and they really don't have proof unless it's something obvious. Here's where it comes down to your relationship with your dealership and any help from K&N if needed. My dealership has told me that unless they have solid evidence that the aftermarket/performance part caused the malfunction then there will be no problem with warranty repair.

I'm really not worried about it. I've used K&N filters and intakes on many cars for many years and haven't had one single problem. I guess only time will tell!
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Unread 03-03-2011, 01:14 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VMF View Post
you are talking about drop in air filter, they are talking about the whole assembly. but even the drop in would allow more air to be sucked in, in terms of ECU more air - more fuel and it will decrease your mileage. also your understanding of performance/racing part is not necessarily similar to the dealers. im not sure if reusable drop in filter is classified as a performance upgrade or not, but changing whole air intake assembly sure is a performance upgrade
Yes, more air = more fuel. But that's only if you demand it (i.e. more throttle). Otherwise you are just getting better airflow (less restrictive) thus increasing your gas mileage (engine breathes easier). I'll report back next week on what my gas mileage is now with the new K&N intake. That's the best way to resolve this. I'm not expecting a big increase, but hopefully 1 or 2 mpg.
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Unread 03-03-2011, 01:58 PM   #25
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nah, with the same driving pattern you still waste more gas, since your unrestricted air flow requires more gas to keep the gas/air mixture to be in the same ratio. ecu does it according to the tables, and if MAF tells it there is more air, it will throw more fuel at it. unless of course you have a reprogrammed ECU, then you can adjust the mixture and make it more lean. i beleive the usual is 14 to 1, but running 18 to 1 will make ur engine to run hot and will melt ur pistons.
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Unread 03-03-2011, 02:05 PM   #26
tjkj2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VMF View Post
nah, with the same driving pattern you still waste more gas, since your unrestricted air flow requires more gas to keep the gas/air mixture to be in the same ratio. ecu does it according to the tables, and if MAF tells it there is more air, it will throw more fuel at it. unless of course you have a reprogrammed ECU, then you can adjust the mixture and make it more lean. i beleive the usual is 14 to 1, but running 18 to 1 will make ur engine to run hot and will melt ur pistons.
No MAF on a 3.7,uses a MAPP sensor.For the 1st week you may see a slight increase but after the PCM corrects for it you will be right back where you were before adding it.Your engine will only need so much air,freeing it up with OE programming in the PCM will do nothing.

Yeah I've seen those dyno charts but that is directly after adding,drive a week or so then retest and you will find zero change after the PCM learns around it and reverts back to OE specs.
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Unread 03-03-2011, 02:40 PM   #27
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type of sensors aside, i agree with what ure saying. i havent played with the KK at all in that sense, but ive seen that in other cars. i dont think there are even tools, besides those ebay chips with questionable origins and unknown effects to play with the liberty ECU. but yeah, ECU is always in learning mode, i think it remembers your last 40 startup informatino or so and adjusts the mix ratio accordingly. besides, adding just the intake would give a negligeble gain since the engine would be restricted on the exhaust side anyway and backpressure would prevent any gains to be seen. and paying 250$ for a 1-2 hp increase or even 5hp increase is not feasible in my book. changing headers and catback and removing a cat with ECU programming alternations can provide some gain that you can actually feel, ive done it to other cars and that seems to work. im not sure how would KK powertech engine behave in this sense with its drive by wire system and i dunno the logic that was used to program the ECU but assuming it is not far from what other manufacturers use, you can achieve some results with unrestricting it on both sides. but that sure will decrease the MTBF and void the warranty.
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Unread 03-03-2011, 02:46 PM   #28
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forgot to add, these gains are only visibile at higher RPMs, and since powertech v6 doesnt really have a flat torque curve and only gains it around 4k rpm, you might feel the diff, while operating at that high of an rpm leve, thats with the IHE upgrqades, not just the I. it has a lot to do with fluid dynamics and proper programming. but since most of us just daily drive liberties and dont redline the engines, these upgrades are not only not gonna do much, but might also make the engine more prone to malfunction.
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Unread 03-03-2011, 05:45 PM   #29
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I noticed more responsiveness even at lower rpm. I understand what you're saying about the pcm relearning and the gains fading. I'll give it a few weeks and see where things are at. Hey, if it turns out I don't like it after a while I'll let you guys know. I don't mind being the guinny pig.
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Unread 03-07-2011, 12:12 AM   #30
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