[T^2]

Originally posted on LOST KJS forum. Reposted here as a FYI:

I took the CRD to a local mechanic to do it's 30k mile service. The mechanic discovered that the heater connector was spewing fuel and that the tip of the connector had been burnt. He stopped work and gave me a call because it's a warranty issue. He said he tried to prime the system and that's when he discovered that is was spewing fuel. I guess he was checking it's integrity. He buttoned the thing back up and gave me the new fuel filter that he was going the replace to old one with.

So, I called the dealer. The dealer tells me that they will not fix the problem under warranty because I didn't have them do the work. Their claim is that my mechanic caused the problem and therefore it's not covered. Of course they said I could call DCX customer service, but they will tell me the same thing. However, I know that this is a known issue. Many folks here have reported the same thing. It may help me fight DCX if I had a list of folks that have experienced the same problem. I suspect that I'm going to have a fight on my hands and it might be helpful if I could provide a list of folks that are experiencing the same issue. This might be able to serve as proof that my mechanic did not cause this problem and that there is a problem with this part.

If memory serves, I recall some have reported this issue to the NHTSA. If so where do I find the complaints that have been register on this issue? This information might also help in proving it's a known issue and wasn't something caused by my mechanic.

Boy has this been a night to remember....

I hadn't got more than a block away from my mechanic's shop and the CRD stopped running right there in the middle of the road (heavy traffic too - joy!). Unfortunately, I had to coordinate a ride from a friend and the shop had long since closed by the time I got there to pick up the CRD. Anyway, I was stopped waiting for the light to change - so I didn't have any momentum to pull if off the road. Nobody would help to give me a push. I had to call the police to give me an assist. Then it took the tow truck and hour and 45 minutes to get to me. The tow truck guy hopped into vehicle and turned the key to put in neutral. He left the key on and within a minute smoke was rolling out from under the hood. I thought the thing was going to catch on fire. I jump in the vehicle, turned off the key, popped the hood, and pull the heater plug off (which was where all the smoke was coming from).

Boy I’m PO'ed… especially with my dealer’s response....

When it came time to buy, I was deciding between a F-150 and the CRD. Today I wish I went with the F-150.

[rob92xj]

Was your mechanic priming the system properely or just pumping away on the primer pump? Then smoke from the plug heater? Do you mean glow plug heater module? Sounds lie your local mechanic did more damage then good to your KJ.

[T^2]

Originally Posted by rob92xj

Was your mechanic priming the system properely or just pumping away on the primer pump? Then smoke from the plug heater? Do you mean glow plug heater module? Sounds lie your local mechanic did more damage then good to your KJ.

As I noted on LostKJS:

Originally Posted by T^2

My mechanic and I had a discussion about the situation this morning. I told him about what my dealer was trying to pull. I asked him specifics about what exactly he did when he was servicing the fuel filter. I wanted to have the facts if I was about to do battle with the dealer or DCX. He told me he removed both of the WIF sensor and heater connectors from the front of the assembly so that he could get at the fuel filter to change it. He then depressed the primer pump to see if it was sticking. My mechanic said that he did that because they often go unused and occasionally stick. He wanted to make sure that it worked before he replaced the filter because if he found out that it was stuck after the fact he wouldn't have been able to prime the new filter. If the primer was stuck, it would have been a warranty issue and he wouldn't have been able to do anything with the vehicle at the point if I wanted to fix the problem under warranty. If the primer was stuck, it was better to leave the old filter on the thing that way it would still run and wouldn’t need a tow to the dealer. Anyway, it was when he depressed the primer pump that the fuel spewed out of the heater connector socket. Once that happened and he saw the burnt connector he quit work on it and gave me a call.

My mechanic volunteered to find a dealer to deal with this issue. He figured that he would have better luck talking mechanic to mechanic, or mechanic to service manager, than I would trying to talk a service writer. In other words they wouldn't be able to give him a load of B.S.. He was successful and coordinated the work for me. I'm having DCX roadside assistance take it to this dealer. My mechanic also tried contacting my current dealer (he called their service manager). His call was never returned. My current dealer probably new it was me/my vehicle that he was calling about. That fact that I got into it on the phone with my deale’rs service writer may have had something to do with the no response....

Anyway, it appears that DCX will be taking care of this issue, to include the tow. However, I won't be total convinced until I see it....

[rob92xj]

Sounds like he didn't open the bleed screw.
I'm a Chrysler Jeep tech and the dealer I work at we would just advise you against going anywhere else to have the fuel system serviced after we fixed it for you.
Personally I have never had one leak, though there are other who have had them le3ak and it will cause a stalling problem and DCX is aware of the problem and are working on it.

[T^2]

Originally Posted by rob92xj

Sounds like he didn't open the bleed screw.
I'm a Chrysler Jeep tech and the dealer I work at we would just advise you against going anywhere else to have the fuel system serviced after we fixed it for you.
Personally I have never had one leak, though there are other who have had them le3ak and it will cause a stalling problem and DCX is aware of the problem and are working on it.

I wasn't there to witness exactly what the mechanic did. However, since he's been doing this for over 40 years and works on diesels every day, I figured I would give him the benifit of doubt about this issue.

Of course anything is possible. I know the manual says "DO NOT force the plunger when priming the fuel system. Damage to the plunger or fuel filter/water separate will result." Is it possible that the system was already fully pressurized when he pressed the primer button (IOW the primer button was already "firm")? Could be - I don't know. Could pressing on the primer button when the system was already fully pressurized/pumped-up cause enough pressure to cause a seal to fail in the the heater connector? I don't know. It seems to me that if it was designed right then this scenario wouldn't be possible. I was under the impression that there was a pressure check value that prevented over-pressurizaion. Then again - after reading the above warning - maybe there isn't.

If I remember my conversation with my mechanic correctly - he said there wasn't any back pressure on the primer button anyway. It pressed easily and as it was being pressed fuel spewed out of the heater connector. He looked at the end of the plug and found that it had been burnt - which suggest an ongoing problem.

[rob92xj]

Originally Posted by T^2

I wasn't there to witness exactly what the mechanic did. However, since he's been doing this for over 40 years and works on diesels every day, I figured I would give him the benifit of doubt about this issue.

Of course anything is possible. I know the manual says "DO NOT force the plunger when priming the fuel system. Damage to the plunger or fuel filter/water separate will result." Is it possible that the system was already fully pressurized when he pressed the primer button (IOW the primer button was already "firm")? Could be - I don't know. Could pressing on the primer button when the system was already fully pressurized/pumped-up cause enough pressure to cause a seal to fail in the the heater connector? I don't know. It seems to me that if it was designed right then this scenario wouldn't be possible. I was under the impression that there was a pressure check value that prevented over-pressurizaion. Then again - after reading the above warning - maybe there isn't.

If I remember my conversation with my mechanic correctly - he said there wasn't any back pressure on the primer button anyway. It pressed easily and as it was being pressed fuel spewed out of the heater connector. He looked at the end of the plug and found that it had been burnt - which suggest an ongoing problem.

DCX has been using that pump and primer for years in Europe, it is also used on minivans and a few other applications.

[T^2]

Originally Posted by rob92xj

DCX has been using that pump and primer for years in Europe, it is also used on minivans and a few other applications.

That doesn't preclude the possibility that an inherent design flaw has existed all those years, and still exist to this day...

In fact - since my experience isn't unique or an isolated case - it might suggest that the above statement may lean more towards being a probability than a possibility.

It also wouldn't be any shock to find that DCX persist in producing products - for many years - with known flawed components.

Personally, I think it's possibly a design/engineering failure to not remove human factors from the equation in terms of primer pressures and the possibilities that electrical connectors could develop leaks from said primer's use. Either that or it's possibly an example of cheapness trumping good design in order to maximize profit.

[BVCRD]

So it's either a cheap part that has been in use for years, or you took it to a guy who didn't know squat about this system.

[T^2]

Originally Posted by BVCRD

So it's either a cheap part that has been in use for years, or you took it to a guy who didn't know squat about this system.

Could be either...

But for the moment I'm leaning towards the former...

[BVCRD]

Originally Posted by T^2

Could be either...

But for the moment I'm leaning towards the former...

....................or both. I hate anything plasic in a part like that, but understand it is needed sometimes.

[rob92xj]

Of all the KJ CRD's I service and do warranty work on I have yet to see a fuel filter housing leaking from the heater or the WIF sensor, I personally think you brought it to someone who may know about older diesels but knows nothing about the newer ones. Hopefully no one who buys a WK with the 3.0L CRD or a 6.7L Dodge truck will go to that guy, as parts for them are expensive.
Incase anyone is reading this that is thinking of buying a WK with a 3.0L or a DOdge Ram with a Cummins 6.7L there is no benifit from removeing the catalytic converter or particulate filter from the vehicle they will go into reduce power mode and not shift past 2 or 3rd gear depending on transmission.

[T^2]

Originally Posted by rob92xj

Of all the KJ CRD's I service and do warranty work on I have yet to see a fuel filter housing leaking from the heater or the WIF sensor, I personally think you brought it to someone who may know about older diesels but knows nothing about the newer ones. Hopefully no one who buys a WK with the 3.0L CRD or a 6.7L Dodge truck will go to that guy, as parts for them are expensive.
Incase anyone is reading this that is thinking of buying a WK with a 3.0L or a DOdge Ram with a Cummins 6.7L there is no benifit from removeing the catalytic converter or particulate filter from the vehicle they will go into reduce power mode and not shift past 2 or 3rd gear depending on transmission.

I can't say who or what is at fault with absolutely certainty. I didn't witness this event first hand. Neither did you. I respect the experience you've gained in this field, but I find it a little presumptuous for you to pronounce this guy guilty without witnessing anything first hand or without any tangible evidence (other than the comments made here) in your possession.

That being said - in this mechanics defense - I see all kinds of diesel trucks and vans going in and out of his shop - most are new. He does a lot of service work for USPS, Enterprise rental, and several other businesses and has been in this business for many years. Evidence suggests that this guy is familiar with newer diesels and not just the old. For the moment, I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. If he begins to develop a track record that suggests I should do otherwise, then I'll reconsider.

Again - I reiterate - my experience has not been an isolated incident. If you go over to the LOSKKJS forum you'll find several others that have experienced this exact same problem. I've also seen the issue reported on the NHTSA website. This further suggests that there indeed may be an issue with this part. It also adds further evidence in defense of this mechanic.

Is it possible that these leaks have been created by human error (by human error - in this case I mean in terms of primer button use)? Sure it's possible. It's possible that hitting the primer button with the bleeder valve closed could have produced enough pressure to cause the seal to go (especially if it was weak or poorly designed to begin with). I don't know. I wasn't there to witness this event and I haven't examined the part myself or had any experts examine it. Here's the rub though. One would think that such a part would have been adequate enough in its design as to not be so sensitive to expected human error, or human factors. I say expected because it seems reasonable that any design engineer should have seen this eventuality and should have factored it into the design. In other words - I’m inclined to believe that you should never see such a failure under any circumstances, no matter what monkeying around (human factors) has taken place. Such an electrical socket should never, ever, be prone to having fuel leaks, even under to most severe use and abuse.

My mechanic did mention that in his many years in this field he has never seen a part like this fail in such a manner. I’m inclined to believe that he shouldn't have either, if the parts he's been dealing with have been designed right.

[T^2]

One other point.

You seem to suggest in your following quote that there is nothing wrong with this part and that it's either an isolated incident or a result of human error:

Originally Posted by rob92xj

Of all the KJ CRD's I service and do warranty work on I have yet to see a fuel filter housing leaking from the heater or the WIF sensor, I personally think you brought it to someone who may know about older diesels but knows nothing about the newer ones...

But even you said in a previous post above:

Originally Posted by rob92xj

Personally I have never had one leak, though there are other who have had them le3ak and it will cause a stalling problem and DCX is aware of the problem and are working on it.

So not only have other people attested to experiencing this issue (see LOSTKJS forum) and complaints about it have popped up on the NHTSA website, DCX is also aware of it according to you. This again suggests that there may indeed be an issue with this part. It also further suggests that a little pause may be prudent before racing off and convicting the mechanic I had do the work. Who knows, maybe my mechanic was at fault. To be fair though, I don't think anybody can say either way.

Considering all the above, I was a little taken aback by how quick you were to assign guilt...

[T^2]

Oh.... and I almost forgot....

I hear your suggestion that we should only take this vehicle to the dealer to have the service work done....

That would be all find and dandy if the dealers were not ripping folks off with their service rates and expenses. When it comes to doing service work on this CRD, they are especially guilty. The quote I got from my dealer for the 30,000 mile service was between $600 and $700. For what? Look at the maintenance schedule and you tell me what justifies such a cost. They charge you between $80 and $100 bucks for a simple oil change on this thing. Please... what a rip-off.

The dealer's are not the only folks out there that are qualified to do this service. One can certainly find qualified mechanics out there to do this work at more reasonable rates.

[T^2]

Apparently what I identified as the WIF sensor is actually the fuel temp sensor...

Oh well....

My mechanic only Identified the heater connector. I assumed the other was the WIF sensor when he said he removed both connectors to remove the filter. After looking at the diagram from the manual, the second connector appears to be the temp sensor.