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Unread 05-10-2013, 06:55 PM   #46
streetglideok
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2005 KJ Liberty 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 2,341
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoBobsKJ View Post
OK, streetglideok, you bring up something very interesting...

I replaced my 2003 KJ's engine with one from an '07 Dakota and had numerous vacuum lines that needed replaced. Until I replaced the bad ones I was getting a consistent P0171 code. Now that same code will show up intermittently - shows up then goes away.

Might it be showing up due to fuel that contains more than 10% ethanol? I've not run straight gas through it yet (really hard to find 100% gas around here) but you've got me thinking...

Jeep runs fine, no stumbling, misfires or other codes. I value your opinion on this one.

Bob

Sent from my iPhone using JeepForum
You would need to track down when the fuel trims are going 20% or more. Is it doing it at all rpms and loads, or is it at idle/no load, or only under load/higher rpms? You'll need a scan tool with data streaming capability to confirm. Lean(positive fuel trim numbers) at idle indicates vacuum leak. If its about the same amount of lean all across the board, it could be related to excessive ethanol. Remember though, your fuel trims have to be 20-25% up or down to trigger lean or rich codes. You may need to get a smoke machine to track down any leaks.
Something else to consider, if you are only getting a P0171, that is only bank 1 system lean. If you had a fuel issue, that would affect both sides of the engine. It is also possible that bank 2 is barely under the threshold to trigger a p0174. This is where a good scan tool pays off. I go for a drive, and record the trip and review it. Well, reality is, I keep an eye on it while I test drive in low traffic areas.

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Unread 05-11-2013, 06:47 PM   #47
94beachxj
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1994 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Surry, va
Posts: 236
"I cant even make sense of the rambling, sorry"
No need to say sorry man. This is a open board!

If you think I'm A idiot for using the real gas vs Gasahol, thats fine. Hey My wife thinks I'm crazy too! lol

But I know I can rest assure, if I do not drive one of my older XJ's for a month or so it still will start
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Unread 05-11-2013, 08:02 PM   #48
TwoBobsKJ
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2003 KJ Liberty 
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Northern, OH
Posts: 571
Quote:
Originally Posted by streetglideok View Post
You would need to track down when the fuel trims are going 20% or more. Is it doing it at all rpms and loads, or is it at idle/no load, or only under load/higher rpms? You'll need a scan tool with data streaming capability to confirm. Lean(positive fuel trim numbers) at idle indicates vacuum leak. If its about the same amount of lean all across the board, it could be related to excessive ethanol. Remember though, your fuel trims have to be 20-25% up or down to trigger lean or rich codes. You may need to get a smoke machine to track down any leaks.
Something else to consider, if you are only getting a P0171, that is only bank 1 system lean. If you had a fuel issue, that would affect both sides of the engine. It is also possible that bank 2 is barely under the threshold to trigger a p0174. This is where a good scan tool pays off. I go for a drive, and record the trip and review it. Well, reality is, I keep an eye on it while I test drive in low traffic areas.
Thanks, street. Now I have a direction to follow to get rid of this bothersome CEL.

Bob
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Unread 05-12-2013, 08:22 AM   #49
streetglideok
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 94beachxj View Post
"I cant even make sense of the rambling, sorry"
No need to say sorry man. This is a open board!

If you think I'm A idiot for using the real gas vs Gasahol, thats fine. Hey My wife thinks I'm crazy too! lol

But I know I can rest assure, if I do not drive one of my older XJ's for a month or so it still will start
If your older XJ(define older) is fuel injected, and wont start after a month, thats a sign of a problem, dont blame your gas. If its only with 10% ethanol fuel, then you probably have something in the process of breaking down already. Don't blame the fuel, fix the problem. I've seen plenty of vehicles sit for months, with no issues. Now if you have a small engine, or carb'd engine, then there is concern, but that is not the topic here.
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Unread 05-13-2013, 06:09 AM   #50
94beachxj
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Surry, va
Posts: 236
" I've seen plenty of vehicles sit for months, with no issues. "
Well thats great!

My Wife works at local John Deere company. FYI They just put new pumps in with 100% gas only! I wonder why?

Now you may think Corn does not gather H20? Thats your opinion. You may think Gasahol is better on MPG's................... Cool!

I know Tech's that build rockets on the side that will argue on that one.

Again this is a board that welcomes all opinions.So your opinions are valid here.
But to say Corn gas does not produce h20?

I will not comment.

Peace.
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Unread 05-13-2013, 06:20 AM   #51
94beachxj
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Again if H2O is good for fuel systems, and I am incorrect on my plea to get back to real gas.........................Then yes this post of mine is a waste! But I am certian there are tech's out there that see the damage H2O does and will back this statement of mine on corn gas. I do not think I could of had 0 trouble free performance from my Jeep 94 XJ fuel system after 240k miles, if I used this corn gas on a regular basis.I mean I am getting 24-28 mpg on this thing. You think Corn will make it better? Again its a open board so if you do, I say cool! I just do not agree. Peace.
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Unread 05-13-2013, 06:59 AM   #52
streetglideok
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Alcohol will absorb water, there is no doubt on that, but in modern fuel systems, sitting for a month, or a few months won't cause issues. 5 years, thats another story. Alcohol has less thermal energy than gasoline, so you get less bang per unit, hence less fuel mileage. Ethanol does not produce water, it absorbs it. Funny, you're running Dot3/Dot4 in your brakes right? How often are you flushing your brakes? That stuff is hygroscopic as well, and when left sitting, will cause all sorts of issues. I don't see you complaining about that. If you don't like running alcohol in your gas, thats cool. Think about how much more money you are giving to those guys that ride camels that hate us, vs re-investing it into our country. I'll stick with actually using my vehicles and putting more money back into our country vs the terrorists. Also, if you read what I said, small engines should be ran with straight gas, as the alcohol is dispenced by volume, and the smaller the quantity, the larger the variance.
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Unread 05-13-2013, 05:09 PM   #53
tjkj2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 94beachxj View Post
" I've seen plenty of vehicles sit for months, with no issues. "
Well thats great!

My Wife works at local John Deere company. FYI They just put new pumps in with 100% gas only! I wonder why?

Now you may think Corn does not gather H20? Thats your opinion. You may think Gasahol is better on MPG's................... Cool!

I know Tech's that build rockets on the side that will argue on that one.

Again this is a board that welcomes all opinions.So your opinions are valid here.
But to say Corn gas does not produce h20?

I will not comment.

Peace.
Your wifes place will want ethanol free gas for the small engines with carbs,that does not take rocket science to figure that one out.


If youyr worried about your '96+ vehicle getting water in the gas from sitting long periods of time due to having 10% ethanol you need re-educated since there fuel systems are sealed.If there not sealed you have some issues with the vehicle itself,not the gas.
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Unread 05-13-2013, 08:39 PM   #54
streetglideok
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjkj2002 View Post
Your wifes place will want ethanol free gas for the small engines with carbs,that does not take rocket science to figure that one out.


If youyr worried about your '96+ vehicle getting water in the gas from sitting long periods of time due to having 10% ethanol you need re-educated since there fuel systems are sealed.If there not sealed you have some issues with the vehicle itself,not the gas.
Yep +1 on that.
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Unread 05-14-2013, 05:05 AM   #55
94beachxj
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"Your wifes place will want ethanol free gas for the small engines with carbs,that does not take rocket science to figure that one out."

Again I respect your opinions in here.

But I do know John Deere does sell / work on Combines that run on gas and diesel. I am aware they sell mowers, but thats not even half imo.

lol

But hey I'm a idiot. lol
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Unread 05-14-2013, 05:15 AM   #56
94beachxj
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"you need re-educated since there fuel systems are sealed."

Does not matter. Studies show even in the best metal tanks have a trace of H20 Quote :" Alkaline Solutions: are variable in their action on aluminum. ... Aluminum pressure vessels, storage tanks, piping and tank cars are excellent ... Aluminum resists corrosion even at elevated temperatures, provided a trace of moisture is present." I do not have a steel/Aluminum tank in my 94. a MINOR variable in temps will cause this gasahol to produce h20. imo. I go with stats on this subject. Cold weather is the worst for Gasahol imo. But its all up to who wants to buy it .
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Unread 05-14-2013, 05:35 AM   #57
94beachxj
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"re-educated "

My last responce......I promise!

This Is why I do not buy his theroy on Corn gas not being a problem.
This is solid facts.....Ethanol never truly bonds with gasoline molecules it is a loose mixture at best so when the threshold of .5% water is exceeded or the E10 gasohol mixture cools off every night the water / ethanol solution falls out of suspension in the gasoline"

How you can expect me to buy this stuff and expect no problems with H20 is beyond me and science.

Peace

But hey what does a red- neck know? lol
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