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Clutch Issues Causes engine to cut out and not start?

4K views 23 replies 4 participants last post by  Billwill 
#1 ·
Good Afternoon,

Hoping someone will be kind enough to share some wisdom!

I have recently bought a 2003 Jeep Cherokee Sport, 2.5 CRD.

Problem is, I only got around 10 miles towards home in it before the tow truck was out to tow it to a local garage - The Clutch was making an awful squeal when disengaged to change gear (with the clutch pedal down) and when I came up to a roundabout - it gave up, died and refused to start again.

The recovery guys looked over it today and have declared it requires a new clutch and probably Dual mass flywheel - at a very expensive cost.

My concern is, could the dodgy clutch really cause the Jeep to cut out (I understand with a Clutch on the way out, it could easily have stalled) - but I don't understand why it then would not have started up - it tried bless it, turned over, but no spark, no life.

I have never owned one of these before and it's all a bit new to me - I just don't want to spend a huge amount of money on the clutch if there are likely to be further underling issues...

Weird part is, when the truck arrived to recover it, it did then start up again, probably an hour or so after it first died. Aside from the squeal, the clutch felt fine to, it seemed to pull okay and changed through the gears with no noticeable issues.

Thanks,

Mike
 
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#2 ·
Mike, In the States, they are called KJ Liberty. Try posting in that section. Any major repairs should have 2 or 3 shops in agreement as to both the cause, and the cure.
 
#3 ·
Welcome to the forum. I went ahead and moved this thread to the correct forum area where your fellow KJ drivers can best assist. Good luck with the jeep.
 
#5 ·
Mike, first check the level of the fluid in the clutch reservoir...it is in the engine bay against the firewall in line with the clutch pedal. There is a mark on the side that shows the correct fluid level. The 2003 models onwards use ATF+ 4 fluid while the 2002 KJs only use Mopar clutch fluid...hopefully the previous owner did not mix the two types. The clutch Master cylinder, Slave cylinder, Reservoir and connecting pipes come as an assembled unit from the Dealers...pre-filled with fluid.
That is probably not your problem with the clutch though. You need to remove the gearbox to be able to remove the clutch assembly to check for wear and check the clutch release bearing.

Check that the flywheel is not cracked or badly scored. Note that the flywheel must not be machined flat by the clutch shop...there is a deliberate curve in the flywheel to match the curve in the clutch friction plate. The flywheel can be lightly cleaned off with Emory cloth but no machining is allowed. You may find that the flywheel has been machined flat by the previous owner and that is your problem so a new flywheel and complete clutch assembly would be required.

The starting problem is another issue....No spark is to be expected on a CRD.. With the engine in neutral and the clutch pedal pressed in....there is a clutch interlock fitted...what happens when you try to start?

Does the engine turn over but not fire?
Do you have the SKIS key emblem constantly lit or flashing at you on the cluster? My 2002 Export 2.5 CRD came standard with the SKIS anti-theft installed so I assume you have it as well. When you turn on the ignition an ember colored light int he form of a key with a stripe through it should come on briefly and then go out completely...showing that the ECM is happy with the chipped key in the ignition.

Is your battery in good condition and are the battery terminals clean and tight? Also check that the negative battery lead going to the chassis is clean and tight and there is a grounding strap that grounds the engine to the chassis....this must be clean and tight on both ends.

Assuming the battery and connections are good...switch the ignition ON, place in neutral and remove the Starter Relay from the fuse box under the bonnet...or "hood" in the USA. Now find pins 30 and 87 inside the Starter relay socket and with a short piece of wire briefly jumper pins 30 and 87 together in the Starter Relay socket.
The engine should hopefully turn over and start. Also check fuse 8 (40A) in the Relay box under the hood is OK.

You can pull most of the OBDII codes out of your ECM by doing the following.

Rapidly turn the ignition ON/OFF four times without starting the engine.

Leave the ignition ON after the forth action.
The Odometer Readout should display the stored codes, from the oldest which may not be valid, to the latest....write these codes down but this method sometimes transposes the last two digits and it does not erase the codes but let us know what codes you are getting.

A very common problem is getting air in the fuel at the fuel filter head although your Export model at least has a better type of fuel head (Racor) than the USA models.
If the engine turns over but does not fire then prime the fuel head as follows.

There is a white plastic thumb screw on top of the fuel head that you screw off by hand and pull up.
Now pump it up and down a few times and then loosen the off the brass bolt on the side to let air out.
Repeat a few times until the pump action is firm.

You can download the 2003 KJ Service Manual on the link below but this does not cover the 2.5 CRD Export engine you have.
So first download the section called: 2.5_2.8 Export Diesel....covers your engine completely although the fuel priming section is incorrect:

http://www.colorado4wheel.com/manuals/Jeep/KJ

Best place for CRD problems is the CRD "Love the Torque" section at: http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum
although they mainly cover USA models.:)

PS. I think you should take this Jeep back to where you bought it and get your money back...it sounds like a Lemon to me and is going to cost you a lot of money!
 
#6 ·
good Morning,
Thanks for your comprehensive reply.

I think you are right about the Lemon situation. Which is a shame for me as I paid cash from a private seller!

The fluid levels were all correct. The clutch felt strong enough whilst driving, aside from the relentless squeal when pressed that is...

The engine did turn over, yes, but no spark. This happened a few times in quick succession and once left for probably an hour or so, turned over just fine.

The car came with two keys, one looked like it contained a chip, the other not - when I first jumped in it, I think I used the wrong key and so it turned over, flashed a key symbol at me, then died. When it was trying to turn over, the key light flashed constantly during turn over, along with the usual array of dash lights.

Battery & terminals were checked and looked okay, they were checked for charge etc and it read good - along with charge coming from the alternator.

The car is still with the recovery guys - they have priced up the clutch and flywheel, awaiting my reply - assuming I guess that this is also related to the stall & no-start issue, which strikes me as odd as it did start less than an hour later.

I have had land rovers recently, and this is quite new to me and works (and breaks...) very differently it seems!

My main concern was that i go ahead and have the clutch sorted, only to find out this was not the cause of the non-start and get back to square one, although without a screaming clutch, but a much lighter wallet.

Thanks,

Mike
 
#7 ·
Once again I have to say that you should not expect to get a spark on a CRD:D

Only replace the flywheel if it looks bad!

You obviously do have SKIS fitted so you have to use the key with the chip in it.
If the SKIS light is flashing at you it means that the ECM is not happy with the key chip code sent to it by the SKIM module...which sits at the top of the steering column with a "loop" going around the key ignition slot. Usually under these conditions...with the skim light flashing at you...the engine will start and run for a few seconds then cut out.

I believe you probably have a bad clutch release bearing which is causing the clutch noise...the non-starting situation has absolutely nothing to do with the clutch noise....pull the codes out using the "key" method as I suggested....unfortunately this does not show all codes such as air-in-fuel so you may need to fit a section of clear plastic tubing on the fuel filter outlet to see if there is fuel flowing without any air bubbles.

I recently went on a fairly long trip in my 2002 2.5 CRD and every so often the engine would cut out completely and I would have to pull over to the curb. No codes were shown but I was pretty sure that the fuel filter was bad....I had been meaning to change it and fortunately kept the new, Mopar, filter under the front seat.

Once I arrived at my destination I had a friend replace the filter for me and it now runs perfectly!

So you may have a fuel problem...which will not generate a code....or a failing component such as the cam sensor or crankshaft sensor which will generate valid codes for you to chase up!;)
 
#8 ·
I've only just picked up on that - you are of course correct, no physical spark is to be expected, I had meant more in a way of coming to life - not thinking through my choice of vocabulary very well considering where I am asking for help from!

The clutch is being sorted shortly and with a bit of luck, I will be able to have a play around at the weekend to see what can be discovered.

I had assumed life would get slightly easier without Land Rover, but its looking fairly similar at the moment!

Thanks,

Mike
 
#11 ·
Bit of an update - the Clutch hasn't yet been done - Simply because when they went to move the Jeep - it wouldn't start!

The garage as plugged it in and the codes are telling them that the ECU and Body Control are not talking to each other - something the garage has told me is 'very bad news' - they have the Battery off at the moment and are leaving it for 24 hours or so to see if it clears itself...
 
#12 ·
What codes are they getting...post them here please!

The BCM has nothing to do with the Jeep starting and the ECM has nothing to do with the engine turning over....the ECM is needed for the engine to start though.

So with the key in the ignition and turned ON does the engine turn over when jumpering pins 30 and 87 inside the Starter Relay socket?:confused:
 
#14 ·
My apologies for the long delay on this one - I have only this morning been able to tow the vehicle home.

Tried to pull the codes from the ignition, but nothing seemed to work in all honesty, might have tried it wrong mind.

No lies from the garage, it will now not turn over at all, which i step down from where were originally, but at least the clutch cannot be heard any more I guess!

The Key symbol is not flashing on the dash.

I think I really dislike the car already you know... Easy to Tow though, one saving grace!
 
#16 ·
LIFE!!

Jumped the starter relay, turned over and started up.

I then replaced the relay with the wiper relay and tried it on the key, again, it started first time.

So... What does this mean? Surely this entire issue could not have been caused by a relay? I say that because the garage went over it for two weeks and nothing...

Thanks,

Mike
 
#19 ·
I quit. Totally done. Hate this thing.

After the last post, I went out there again, just because, and tried to turn it over - it cranked! But the battery is now flat!!

I don't understand this Jeep - it seems to have a mind of its own, and a very vindictive one at that.
 
#20 ·
It sounds like you have a very simple problem revolving around the Starter Relay...as soon as you work near the relay things change.

The relay itself has male pins on it and the socket has female pins. The female pins often "open' up so that a good contact is not made with the relay pins.

You need to first clean the male pins with some fine water paper and likewise clean the female contacts inside with a strip of fine water paper....then slightly compress the curled over sections of the female contacts so that they grip the male pins more firmly...do not overdo this or the relay will not fit into the socket and you may push the female pins back into the socket.

This should work otherwise you have a bad connection where the wires crimp onto the female pins. You can flip over the complete relay box...first disconnect the battery...remove the plastic cover in place and you will have access to the wires crimped onto the female plugs of your Starter Relay socket. You can try crimp them on tighter using a pair of pliars or apply some electrical solder over the crimped connection.

The flay battery is to be expected but you need to do the following:

Check that the battery connections are clean and tight. Likewise the negative terminal connects to the chassis of the Jeep...make sure this connection is clean and tight. Finally there is a connection strap that grounds the engine to the chassis...this must be clean and tight on both ends.

In the meantime charge up the battery with a home charger and have the battery checked.;)
 
#21 ·
Sounds like a plan. I do have one further question though... What made the Jeep die in the first place? I wouldn't imagine this would be related to the starter relay, unless I am missing something - once the starter has done it's job, I would assume it sits dormant, presumably, there is a further issue that killed the engine in the first place?
 
#22 ·
Could have been a bad battery connection that caused the Jeep to die in the first place, or a clogged fuel filter or several other causes. The ASD relay when going bad has been known to cause problems like this.

You need to get it running to see how it performs...any further problems you can try to pull out OBDII codes to see what it was complaining about.;)
 
#24 ·
Check fuse 8 in the fuse box in the engine bay.

This code P0836 may be very old and no longer relevant.

There is a good chance that you may now have the dreaded "broken ignition actuator" problem whereby the actuator from the ignition barrel going into the ignition switch is starting to break.....can turn ignition ON but will not start the vehicle.:(

You need to remove the two plastic covers over the steering column...two female Torx screws.

Then remove the ignition switch off the actuator assembly...held in place by on smaller female Torx screw...on your old model KJ this should be a normal screw...newer KJs have a Security screw.

Check if small pieces fall out as you remove the ignition switch...this means the actuator pin is broken. Dealers do not sell this actuator assembly...you would need to do a search here for this part.

You can use a small flat screwdriver to turn the ignition switch...engine should turn over and start provided you have the clutch pedal pressed in of course!

Get back to us if this is not your problem.;)

Edit to add: If starting the Jeep using a screwdriver in the ignition switch you must have the key in the normal ignition slot...firstly to unlock the steering and secondly to enable SKIS which you may have installed.

Also are you sure the clutch-interlock switch is working properly...the manual KJs will not turn over unless it senses that the clutch is depressed.
 
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