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Unread 11-19-2005, 08:00 PM   #1
DMV
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Bio-Diesel

Thought it might be a good idea to have a thread to discuss all things Bio-D. I know that I am interested to hear others experiences with various % of Bio-D. Now that colder weather is here one of the down sides to Bio-D should start to show up in some areas. Besides the great feeling of not sending profits to OPEC, Has anyone noticed any differences when using Bio-D?

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Unread 11-20-2005, 06:08 AM   #2
dfw
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I tote 100% biodiesel in 5 gallon cans. When I refuel, I put 1/2 a can into the tank, so I am running about a 15% mixture.

I have been storing the cans outside. Yesterday, night time low temperature was about 10F, and it was about 35F when I poured the biodiesel. Most of the biodiesel ran out of the can. The rest wouldn't pour because it turned to slush. Took the slush into the house and let it warm up, and then was able to pour the remainder,

Lesson learned: before pouring 100% biodiesel during winter, take it indoors to warm up.
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Unread 11-20-2005, 06:40 AM   #3
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I've been running B50 since I bought the CRD in September, and the first thing I noticed was it ran a bunch quieter on this mix than on the factory 5 gallons + 5 gallons of cheap rotgut the dealer put in it.

dfw, I have to warn you that you MUST have both the biodiesel and the petro you mix it with warmer than about 40 degrees when you mix 'em. If you mix them cloudy/chunky, the chunks will not dissolve, but will remain as chunks until the whole mass has warmed enough to melt and dissolve properly. DO NOT MELT THE BIO IN THE HOUSE AND THEN POUR INTO 10 DEGREE PETRODIESEL ALREADY IN YOUR TANK or you will plug up your fuel system/filter!
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Unread 11-20-2005, 09:31 AM   #4
Valkraider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfw
I tote 100% biodiesel in 5 gallon cans. When I refuel, I put 1/2 a can into the tank, so I am running about a 15% mixture.

I have been storing the cans outside. Yesterday, night time low temperature was about 10F, and it was about 35F when I poured the biodiesel. Most of the biodiesel ran out of the can. The rest wouldn't pour because it turned to slush. Took the slush into the house and let it warm up, and then was able to pour the remainder,

Lesson learned: before pouring 100% biodiesel during winter, take it indoors to warm up.
In order to blend successfully, you should warm up the engine before blending, and pour biodiesel over the regular diesel. Biodiesel is heavier and putting it on top will aid in blending. Warming up the engine first helps to warm the fuel system. It is a good idea to drive around after you mix, to "splash blend".

Here is some good advice about cold weather blending.

Blend below 40 degrees

The National Biodiesel board just did an interesting study on cold weather splash blending, which found that to successfully blend it must be about 10 degrees warmer than the cloud point of the biodiesel (link to PDF file):

Cold Flow Testing Report
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Unread 11-20-2005, 05:24 PM   #5
dcxman
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The manual calls for a maximum of 5% bio. What can one expect from higher levels and how high can one go? Just bought my crd on wed. and love it. However the
esp light comes on frequently. Diagnosis blames faulty abs. Anyone else with this?
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Unread 11-20-2005, 09:30 PM   #6
Valkraider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcxman
The manual calls for a maximum of 5% bio. What can one expect from higher levels and how high can one go? Just bought my crd on wed. and love it. However the
esp light comes on frequently. Diagnosis blames faulty abs. Anyone else with this?
I have been using minimum B20 since purchase, and B99 for most of the time. For the winter I am running B50.

You can expect a quieter engine and less soot. And a cleaner conscience.

Depending on your driving style and the quality of regular diesel you are used to - you might or might not notice a difference in mileage. I have not. This is debated a lot in biodiesel forums, and on the TDI volkswagen forums.

DC does not warranty *any* fuel related problems. Biodiesel or not. Bad fuel voids your warranty. If you use biodiesel make sure you trust the source. I personally only use retail commercially produced ASTM certified fuel. I don't trust "homebrew" in my $25k new car...

I also have 50k miles using at least B20 and a good chunk of that at B50 or higher in a Volkswagen TDI (2002). VWoA officially didn't "allow" Biodiesel in any form in the USA until I think just this year. Now they authorize 5%. But same story - fuel related problems are never covered.

I personally know people who have more than 100k on VW TDIs fueled with biodiesel.

The ESP is just your Jeep trying to subliminally prod you to feed it more biodiesel.
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Unread 11-21-2005, 06:44 AM   #7
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Yes the manual says maximum of 5%, but DC is on record saying that the only reason they haven't upped that to 20% already is that they distrust the supply system to be able to provide quality biodiesel at that level. How high can you go? I wouldn't expect a problem unless you insist on more than 100%.

As mentioned above by both Valkraider and myself, people have been running higher concentrations without difficulty. Make sure you use biodiesel that is ASTM certified, and you should have no trouble with higher than 5%. I wouldn't run more than 50% in cold weather, or more than 20% in winter in the northern states/Canada, but attention to winterization is needed with straight petrodiesel, too.

And Valkraider is also right about warranty issues: buy a load of water, whether you are driving a diesel or a gasser, and your engine maker will send you to the fuel supplier. Bad fuel damage is ALWAYS covered by the fuel supplier, not the engine supplier.
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Unread 11-21-2005, 08:17 AM   #8
oldnavy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcxman
However the esp light comes on frequently. Diagnosis blames faulty abs. Anyone else with this?
NUMBER: 08-048-05
GROUP: Electrical
DATE: September 01, 2005

SUBJECT:
Rear Axle Fluid May Contaminate The Differential Mounted Rear Wheel Speed
Sensor
OVERVIEW:
This bulletin involves the replacement of the differential mounted rear
wheel speed sensor
and the replacement of the rear axle fluid.
MODELS:
2005 (KJ) Liberty / Cherokee
SYMPTOM/CONDITION:
The customer may experience a brake/ABS warning light or a Malfunction
Indicator Lamp

(MIL) illumination. On vehicles equipped with an Anti-Lock Brake System
(ABS), a Red
brake light and/or an Amber ABS light may illuminate and remain on. On
vehicles NOT
equipped with ABS, the MIL may illuminate. The MIL may be due to DTC P0501 -
Vehicle
Speed Signal Performance / Vehicle Speed Sensor Plausibility.
The above condition may be due a rear differential mounted rear wheel speed
sensor that
may be contaminated by the rear axle fluid.
DIAGNOSIS:
Using the diagnostic Service Info procedures available on TechCONNECT, if
proper
diagnosis determines that the rear wheel speed sensor requires replacement,
then perform
the Repair Procedure.
PARTS REQUIRED:
Qty. Part No. Description
1 56041393AA Sensor, Wheel Speed (rear)
1 05086373AA O-Ring, Sensor
1 05013477AA Axle RTV
1 04897151AB Brake Parts Cleaner - Non-Chlorinated VOC
Exempt
AR (3) 05010320AA Lubricant, Mopar Synthetic Gear - 75W-90
AR (3) 04874469 Lubricant, Mopar Synthetic Gear & Axle -
75W-140 (if towing)
AR (1) 04318060AB Limited Slip Additive (if Trac-Lok Equipped)
NUMBER: 08-048-05
GROUP: Electrical
DATE: September 01, 2005
REPAIR PROCEDURE:
1. Disconnect and isolate the negative battery cable from the battery.
2. Raise the vehicle on a suitable lift.
3. Remove the rear axle differential housing cover.
4. Thoroughly clean the axle, differential, and differential cover of old
oil, debris, and
RTV.
5. Remove the rear wheel speed sensor electrical connector. Remove the
sensor from
the axle.
6. Install the new O-ring, p/n 05086373AA, to the new rear wheel speed
sensor.
7. Lubricate the new rear wheel speed sensor and O-ring
8. Install the new rear wheel speed sensor, p/n 56041393AA, to the axle.
Tighten the
attaching bolt to 9 Nm (80 in. lbs.).
9. Verify that the seal is securely in place between the sensor and wiring
connector.
Install the sensor electrical connector to the sensor.
10. Apply a bead of Axle RTV sealant, p/n 05013477AA, to the differential
housing cover.
CAUTION: If cover is not installed within 3 to 5 minutes of new RTV sealant
application, the cover must be cleaned and new RTV sealant applied.
Failure to follow instructions will cause a leak.
11. Install the cover and identification tag. Tighten cover bolts in a
criss-cross pattern to 41
Nm (30 ft. lbs.).
12. If not already removed, remove the fill plug.
13. If axle is equipped with a Trac-Lok differential, install 4 oz. of
Limited Slip Additive to
the differential.
14. Fill the axle differential with the correct axle lubricant.
15. Install the fill plug.
16. Verify that the rear wheel speed sensor and differential housing cover
is correctly
installed.
17. Lower vehicle.
18. Connect the negative battery cable to the battery. Set the clock to the
correct time.
POLICY:
Reimbursable within the provisions of the warranty.
TIME ALLOWANCE:
Labor Operation
No:
Description Amount
08-19-15-90 Sensor, Differential Mounted Rear Wheel Speed -
Replace
and Rear Axle Fluid - Replace
0.6 Hrs.
FAILURE CODE:
71 Oil Leak
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Unread 11-21-2005, 09:58 AM   #9
Valkraider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldnavy
NUMBER: 08-048-05
GROUP: Electrical
DATE: September 01, 2005

SUBJECT:
Rear Axle Fluid May Contaminate The Differential Mounted Rear Wheel Speed
Sensor
May also want to throw that into a non-Biodiesel thread, so others might find it.
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Unread 11-21-2005, 11:30 AM   #10
Toasterovin
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I live in NW ohio and I was wondering about fuel additives to avoid gelling. I just bought some Power Service anti-gel for my CRD. I have access to B10 and regular diesel. Do you need anti-gel additives with B10? I know I do with regular diesel.
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Unread 11-21-2005, 01:12 PM   #11
oldnavy
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I would if it were mine.
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Unread 11-21-2005, 01:37 PM   #12
patentguy
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Quote:
Do you need anti-gel additives with B10?
Bioidiesel provides no anti-gelling. In fact it has a higher gelling temperature than petro-diesel. That is why most suppliers recommend using nothing higher than B50 in winter. B20 has effectively the same gelling temperature as normal petro-diesel. So, if you need to put anti-gelling additives in straight petro-diesel than you will need to put the same additives in B5, B10, B20 or B50.

I use B20 in my CRD as often as possible. I have 8,100 miles on my CRD and about every third tank has been B20. It has run great. I will continue to use B20 over the winter, but I will be adding anti-gelling additives when the temperatures drop.
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Unread 11-21-2005, 03:14 PM   #13
Valkraider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toasterovin
I live in NW ohio and I was wondering about fuel additives to avoid gelling. I just bought some Power Service anti-gel for my CRD. I have access to B10 and regular diesel. Do you need anti-gel additives with B10? I know I do with regular diesel.
There is no known anti-gel that will work with B100 yet. So if you use B10, any anti-gel is only treating the regular diesel and has no effect on the biodiesel.

However, picture your tank like this:

Lets represent the fuel molecules as people, and the tank as a big convention center expo floorspace. Imagine that people fill the whole room, standing room only.

Normally, people can move around freely throughout the room, just bumping into people.... And they can be "removed" through a door at the end just fine.

Now if you have 20% of them (lets say they represent the biodiesel) all lock hands. It makes moving around still tough, but possible. And you can still remove others through the door.

If you were to get say - 50% of the people all locking hands, it would be much harder to move around, or remove people through the door. Much more than 50% of the people locking hands and things freeze up solid.

In this example, locking hands is representive of fuel gelling. The fuel molecules bind together. The initial stages of this will just make the fuel cloudy. The more that jells the thicker it gets until soon it will not flow at all.

By having the 80 or 90 % of regular diesel stay liquid - you prevent the problems. Even if the biodiesel gells up - it is a small enough percentage of the molecules that it will not clog a filter or the screen.

So treating the percentage of regular diesel does work in blends of less than 50% biodiesel. In blends over 50% biodiesel there is not much you can do.

The reason there is no additive for biodiesel yet (the simplification of it anyway) is that no two batches of biodiesel will have the exact same oils. Plants vary naturally, and biodiesel made from recycled oils can have any number of sources. So you never can know with certainty which fatty acids will be in the oils, and thus you cannot prevent them from gelling. An additive might be able to prevent one type of fatty acids from gelling - and in one tank you have a lot of them, so the additive works well. In the next tank you may not have any of those same acids and the additive would not work at all...

I know this is all grossly simplified, and there are many more details out there if you want. But this is enough info for most Biodiesel users....

So with a B10 blend, you simply need to treat it like regular diesel with regard to additives to prevent gelling....
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Unread 11-21-2005, 06:00 PM   #14
dcxman
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O.K. I'm in. But where can you get the stuff? I'm in MO., and I know that MFA
has it but is not commonly found.
Also, others have claimed to have good luck processing their own from discarded
fryer grease, but the process required seems daunting. Any thoughts?
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Unread 11-21-2005, 08:00 PM   #15
oldnavy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcxman
O.K. I'm in. But where can you get the stuff? I'm in MO., and I know that MFA
has it but is not commonly found.
Also, others have claimed to have good luck processing their own from discarded
fryer grease, but the process required seems daunting. Any thoughts?
Check out this link.
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[b]'05 Liberty Sport CRD, Stone White , Her's
'05 Dodge Magnum SE, Cool Vanilla White, Mine[/B] Waiting for diesel version.
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