But I MAY have just sold my XJ. And IF the deal goes through this week I gotta move fast for a replacement.
Confession, I'm not really a wheeler. My Jeeps do pavement queen duty (family/grocery getter), ski trip duty, foul weather duty and tow a small boat.
I'm SERIOUSLY looking at the Scoobie-Doo Baja and the new Compass.
But a part of me always wanted a diesel libby.
I was going to give up when they stopped building them, but I located a slightly used one 2005 Limited, every option (including sunroof, tow package, heated leather) with only 6k miles on it.
So I want to at least consider it.
It's at a vehicle wholesaler, so I don't have a lot of info yet (like inservice date etc).
Here are my basic questions.
1. 2005 - factory warranty was? (obviously will vary with in-service date)
2. Known issues on Diesels? - any that I should seriously worry about for long-term reliability (100k+)
3. What are the strengths of the Libby? I've only test driven em so I don't know what it is like to live with them for extended periods. Are they comfortable for long drives? (I used to get this pain in my right leg on longer drives with my WJ, I think it had something to do with the position of my leg with regards to the transmission tunnel.) How smooth on the highway? How quiet? (After my XJ I'd expect anything would be smooth and quiet.)
4. What are the negatives of the Libby? Hooking up a trailer has to be a pain with that swinging door and the tire on the back? What's the one thing that bugs you about your Libby?
I strongly suggest you visit LOSTKJ.com and survey the both the general Liberty stuff and the CRD specific forum before you purchase. Would also strongly recommend you find a Jeep dealer that is CRD certified, capable, and willing to perform your warranty work on a CRD that you didn't purchase from them (and yes, you WILL have warranty work on a CRD). You WILL become married to their service department. In addition, I would strongly recommend that you purchase an extended b2b warranty (not just drivetrain) to cover the pricey emission component failures that WILL happen on the CRD. My CRD experience has been less than pleasant and at times, the only thing that got DC to fix it was the threat of a Lemon Law suit (leverage you will lack because you are buying it used).
I've had my 05 CRD for almost a year now. I'm loving every minute of it I'm going in for the LBJ recall in just a bit. I had the ERG valve replaced but other than that there has been no issues. I need to get an extinsion for the hitch to get it out from under the spare tire. I also replaced the stock 225/75/R16 tires with 245/70R16s.
Most of the problems with the CRD has been found to be fuel related and with the ULSD fuel being shipped to distributors should fix most of them but you may still have a problem with the EGR valve or flow control valve due to excessive ash deposits in them from the LSD.
ULSD= ultra low sulfur deisel and LSD= low sulfur diesel.
I'm a CRD certified tech both Cummins and VM.
The torque converter problem were caused by a bad sump pump seal or a porious front pump, the reason they were locking up and stalling the engine is because the torque converter is held unlocked by full line pressure in the trans and if there is a leak you will loose pressure to the torque converter which allows it to lock up.
All in all the Liberty is a strong vehicle that has had some issues but I have worked on many high mileage gasser's of the past few years and they have very few problems.
05 basic warranty is 3/36000 with the extended powertrain which was 7/70000
06 and later models have the basic 3/36000.
I work for a Jeep dealer.
Rob, sulfer-clogging the EGR, what's the fix, take it off and clean it or replace?
About how often would that occur, assuming the ULSD fuels might not be widespread for a year or so?
Is the 7/70 powertrain warranty automatically transferred to a second owner? The vehicle I'm considering is at a wholesaler.
Hell, it only has 6k miles on it, so depending upon it's in service date I assume it could still be under the original warranty? That HAS to be transferrable right?
The warranty is transferrable to the second owner for some nominal processing fee. I have an 05 and I had the Torque Converter problems and my LBJ replaced, other than that I love this vehicle. :thumbsup:
Rob, sulfer-clogging the EGR, what's the fix, take it off and clean it or replace?
About how often would that occur, assuming the ULSD fuels might not be widespread for a year or so?
Is the 7/70 powertrain warranty automatically transferred to a second owner? The vehicle I'm considering is at a wholesaler.
Hell, it only has 6k miles on it, so depending upon it's in service date I assume it could still be under the original warranty? That HAS to be transferrable right?
All stations should be pumping ULSD diesel by 10/31/06 across the country. With only 6000 miles it shouldn't be a problem.
There has been a revised EGR valve that came out to the US market, they have not had these problems in Europe but then again we get crap for diesel fuel in this country compared to what they are pumping overseas.
If there is no vehicle restrictions you just have to goto your local dealer and transfer the contract as it is a service contract which is why they have a $100 deductible.
I have the 05 liberty crd, picked it up 3mo ago now with 4100 miles on it. Haven't had any issues, however did negotiate into the price a 7yr bumper to bumper. Got it for 20.5k w/warranty. It's my wife's DD so just wanted something with AC and the ability to drive in the little CO snow storms we get here. She loves it, had one issue 3 weeks ago, but wasn't in the car. She said it sounded like a heli-copter and the truck shook real bad until she pulled over. Shut it off and restarted and it was fine. I honestly think she somehow got it stuck in between gears, but wasn't their. Overall that was the only issue, we took it to jeep and they couldn't find a problem, and it's been runing great ever sense. The MPG on it is way over the estimates we saw on the window.
All stations should be pumping ULSD diesel by 10/31/06 across the country. With only 6000 miles it shouldn't be a problem.
There has been a revised EGR valve that came out to the US market, they have not had these problems in Europe but then again we get crap for diesel fuel in this country compared to what they are pumping overseas.
If there is no vehicle restrictions you just have to goto your local dealer and transfer the contract as it is a service contract which is why they have a $100 deductible.
The particulates are caused by the LSD, which is why the EGR valve issues should be gone soon. They have been using the 2.8L CRD in minivans since 2001 in Europe and other countries and they have not had the problems we have had with them here in the States.
I can't wait for the 07 WK with the 3.0L Blue Tech 3.0L or the 08 Liberty with the "Panther" diesel(stilll a VM engine) and force a regeneration of the particulate filter, exhaust temps will be hot enough to sear a steak @1500 degrees the 07 Ram is getting it too, one of the reasons the manufactures backed the fuel companies against the wall on better diesel fuel.
There are a few RGs(European minivan) running around the States with a 2.8L CRD by DC engineers.
The EGR valve is a relatively new item, they have had problems on them on everything they have put them on. The VW boards are full of problems/fixes. The Euro rigs don't have them I hear. That said I love my rig. I tow my boat with it on an extended stinger all the time, get awesome MPG under all conditions. Have only had EGR problems and going in for LBJ Thurs. AM. It was the only rig I found that had all the things I wanted, got good MPG, towed like a freight train, offroads great (wheel all weekend on the same tank), and much more. The seats are firm, but I haven't been uncomfortable in them. ( I used to race dirt bikes and buggies, so maybe like you I may not be the best judge as I've been in Jeeps for almost 50 years now, they just get nicer and smoother ).
The most relevant question you need to ask yourself: Why are you looking at the diesel version of the Liberty? If you intend to tow, it would be difficult to find a small SUV that would out pull the CRD. If it's for the economics of running a diesel, you need to evaluate the math carefully. There are some deceptive economics with this vehicle. Routine maintenance is relatively expensive if you intend to rely on a dealer (example: $100 oil changes). If you intend to wrench on it yourself, it's probably managable. Fuel mileage is outstanding for it's heavy weight, poor aerodynamics, and spinning full-time 4X4 hardware. However, diesel fuel has been selling at a significant premium that will negate the savings. In my area, diesel is selling @ $0.60/gal premium over RULG which absolutely kills the economics of owning any diesel. In more general terms, in a $3/gal (and up) fuel market the CRD is definately worth the extra trouble. In a $2/gal market, probably should look at some other choices. A good example, I also own a full size Chevy pick-up truck which @ 110K miles gives me much less trouble and presently costs roughly the same to operate.
Ultimately the choice is yours. I would still consider the used CRD which you are looking at but not at a premium just because it's a diesel.
The freedom to tow, not only my small boat, but a bike or utility trailer. Heck, maybe even a pop-up camper one of these days.
The fuel economy and my personal belief that biodiesel is going to slowly become more prevelant in this country.
The fact that I can still have a TRUCK as opposed to a car-based ute and enjoy better fuel economy.
And if the world ends tomorrow, I'll cook my own fuel
Maintenance, NO ONE touches a vehicle of mine (bike, boat, car, truck) unless it is in warranty, so that's not an issue.
Spoke with the parts guys and service techs at my local dealer this morning. They ran the VIN for me on this particular one. It had Glow Plugs replaced at 950 miles, but no other reports of warranty work.
They said that the diesels they've run through their dealership have all been either ABSOLUTELY TROUBLE FREE or NIGHTMARES. But it also sounds like part of the issue is that they don't have someone familiar with diesels. I'm sure the info is out there if you work at it.
I took the opportunity to talk with their sales-guys about a Compass. They offered me invoice - holdback on anything I order. Pretty good price.
I'm really not sure which way to go.
The Libby has the CLEAR advantage for Towing. But right now all my towing needs are 1500 lbs or less.
But the gasser's fuel economy isn't acceptable to me anymore.
I've lived with it with the Cherokee for long enough.
Ya know, I've never even considered owning a Toyota before (ok, maybe the FJ is kinda cool), but if Toyota can get 21/28 out of a V6 in a RAV4 thanks to the 5-speed (and still maintain 3500 lbs towing capacity), DC has no excuse for such crappy highway mileage on a Libby.
Heck, one of my business partners gets 22 on the higway IN HIS SUBURBAN!
So, I'm woefully out of touch with what is coming down the line from DC, was it you that mentioned an 08 Diesel Libby. Is that speculation or was that announced somewhere? What are the details (if any)?
Spoke with the parts guys and service techs at my local dealer this morning. They ran the VIN for me on this particular one. It had Glow Plugs replaced at 950 miles, but no other reports of warranty work.
Yes, take a look at a couple of items on the diesel.
1). Glow plug replacement has a tendency to coincide with EGR and flow control valve failures. Several software updates for both engine & tranny were also released to improve the performance of these parts. Take a look at the underside of the hood for a TSB update sticker for the software version. You are looking for numbers like 18-015-05 (very old) 18-009-06 (old) or 18-023-06 (current). If the glow plugs were replaced, it likely has atleast 18-015-05. You should also be aware there is an active recall for software (F31) so your dealer will likely update the rest of the software if you ask nicely.
2). Take a look at the drivers door for the build date. Build dates before 6/05 (ie..early 05's) would be more likely to have failures due to software logic.
But the gasser's fuel economy isn't acceptable to me anymore.
I've lived with it with the Cherokee for long enough.
Ya know, I've never even considered owning a Toyota before (ok, maybe the FJ is kinda cool), but if Toyota can get 21/28 out of a V6 in a RAV4 thanks to the 5-speed (and still maintain 3500 lbs towing capacity), DC has no excuse for such crappy highway mileage on a Libby.
Heck, one of my business partners gets 22 on the higway IN HIS SUBURBAN!
So, I'm woefully out of touch with what is coming down the line from DC, was it you that mentioned an 08 Diesel Libby. Is that speculation or was that announced somewhere? What are the details (if any)?
The difference between a RAV4 and a Liberty is night and day. One's a station wagon, the other's a truck. A better comparison is the RAV4 to the Compass or Patriot. Or a Subaru Forester.
A Rav4 may TECHNICALLY be able to tow 3500 lbs... But I wouldn't do it. That's all GM rates a Colorado to tow. I find that the Japs tend to 'allow' more on their trucks... probably haven't been hit by lawsuits, yet.
22 highway in a suburban... I call BS. My dad's Tahoe is lucky to get 15. Maybe he's got the best suburban ever built... But probably he's full of it. Or simply doing his math seriously wrong (or trusting an on-board computer that's calculating differently than the pump).
In any event, you won't find a REAL SUV that will do any better than the Liberty CRD. Just station wagons.
The "Panther" is what the new diesel is called, in its current use which they did not tell me at the DCX training center.
As far as the 08 Libby what I know is kind of like insider info. There are many nice features coming out in it, look at the DOdge Nitro for more info as they are the first Jeeps and Dodge to be built next to each other the Caliber/Compass don't count as they are not designed to go off highway.
My 03 Ram gets all of 8mpg in town and one of the guys I work with gets 16mpg in town with his Chevy 1500.
The difference between a RAV4 and a Liberty is night and day. One's a station wagon, the other's a truck. A better comparison is the RAV4 to the Compass or Patriot. Or a Subaru Forester.
I've got some wrenching time in on a Subaru Forrester. Great vehicle, but closer to the Compass than the RAV.
The new generation RAV is a pretty serious machine, certainly as capable as a Liberty in most situations.
The only thing more TRUCKY about the Libby is the solid rear axle.
A Rav4 may TECHNICALLY be able to tow 3500 lbs... But I wouldn't do it. That's all GM rates a Colorado to tow. I find that the Japs tend to 'allow' more on their trucks... probably haven't been hit by lawsuits, yet.
The Jap companies are just as experienced with an overly-litigious American public as the US companies. They certainly aren't over-rating the RAV. Not that 3500 lbs is anything to brag about, but it just happens to meet my requirements with something to spare.
I'm not saying a diesel Libby isn't going to outpull it, but that doesn't mean anything to me if my requirements are already well met. I'm THINKING that the Compass will meet my requirements (though without a comfortable cushion).
22 highway in a suburban... I call BS. My dad's Tahoe is lucky to get 15. Maybe he's got the best suburban ever built... But probably he's full of it. Or simply doing his math seriously wrong (or trusting an on-board computer that's calculating differently than the pump).
For a gasser, my '83 6.2L Diesel would get 29+ mpg on the highway, and only a tad less in town. It didn't matter much if you were pulling a trailer, milage would only fall off 1-2 mpg.
I wouldn't be so quick to knock down a GMC/Chevy truck for mileage. My '97 Chevy 1500 delivers a very predictable 20-21 mpg regardless of how it is worked (and I don't have cruise control). My brother-in-law's '03 GMC Sierra 4X4 will pull 19-20 mpg on long trips. As long as you stay away from the 4.11 axles, they do very well on mileage for their size and weight.
The Jap companies are just as experienced with an overly-litigious American public as the US companies. They certainly aren't over-rating the RAV. Not that 3500 lbs is anything to brag about, but it just happens to meet my requirements with something to spare.
It just about came down to coin toss on choosing the CRD over a RAV. If had had to make the choice again, I would get the RAV. Ironic how I boufht the CRD because I believed the heavier chassis and drivetrain would hold-up better on my rough expressway winter commutes. A year later, I've been through one set of LBJ's, numerous service visits for stuff that just shouldn't happen on a new vehicle, and still have a tranny with a known engineering defect that is nothing short of a ticking timebomb. Don't get me wrong, I still like my CRD despite the quirks and intend to make the best of my choice.
Funny thing is that DCX's warranty costs are actually lower then Toyota and Honda's. The RAV4 is nothing more then a oversized compact car the Liberty is still a truck.
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