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Unread 10-11-2013, 12:18 AM   #46
Awesome
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You're not understanding. You are ABLE to pull far much weight because of the force multipliers. Your 8000lb winch can pull a 16,000lb Hummer if you use a single snatch block. Your winch LINE, however, still cannot take the weight and it will snap.

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Unread 10-11-2013, 12:59 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Awesome View Post
Your math is slightly off. When double blocked your length of pull is 1/3 of what your total line length is (and so is your line speed). Your winchs' power is increased by 3x, but that's 3x more strain on your winch cable.

I only carry one snatch block because I know if I needed to use two I would definitely snap my winch line.

As far as helping people... before I got my winch I got stuck all the time trying to help other people get unstuck. Now that I've got my winch, I've only needed to use it on other people once or twice, but I don't get stuck when getting them out.
I see your math on line length at a 3:1 pull (or as I improperly called it "double" blocked) but the max force on your line will be what your winch is capable of.

Grabbed this off of google using "double block winch" for search words.



Attachment points for this kind of stress needs to be thought out in advance. I lined mine up with the frame and went all the way through the bumper, then welded a half inch plate around it before connecting to frame, it would probably bend the frame before it gave up.







back side of clevis mount:





If you cannot go all the way through, make the back/mount/weld side wider, as wide as possible. Make sure the clevis can move freely though.

This will give more weld surface:



If you can get to the back, cut (or drill) a small hole or holes to "plug" weld the mount from the back, this helps too.

There are both types of mounts in dxf format here:

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f37/c...sible-1521971/

Post #7 are the ones pictured above

They were meant to be cut from 1" A36 or A50/T1 (better) NO AR plate, too brittle.
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Unread 10-11-2013, 06:27 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Awesome View Post
You're not understanding. You are ABLE to pull far much weight because of the force multipliers. Your 8000lb winch can pull a 16,000lb Hummer if you use a single snatch block. Your winch LINE, however, still cannot take the weight and it will snap.
I'm sorry that we are having this communication problem. But, it is based on your misunderstanding of the physics of block and tackle. There is not one more pound of strain on the winch line regardless of how many pulleys are in the system. The increased force is spread over the several separate rope segments supporting the load.

A 9500 pound winch pulls 9500 pounds. The strain on the first foot of winch cable is the same as the last. This is always confusing and folks get a little frustrated with the physics. But, try to visualize the wire rope leaving the winch with a strain of 9500 pounds and think about where and how that might change when the only force being applied to it is the winch.
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Unread 10-11-2013, 11:07 AM   #49
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Yes. You are thoroughly confusing me.

I am not talking about using a 9500lb winch to pull a 9500lb load with multiple snatch blocks. I am talking about a 9500lb winch pulling a 28,500lb load. This is possible using two snatch blocks, because you are essentially regearing your winch in a 3:1 ratio.

I'll use a driveline as an example.

You put a 4:1 kit in your transfer case. This decreases strain on your engine to the point where you are now able (some on this forum have done it) to pull a semi truck. Your axles, which are still working at the same "ratio" they always were (only the power has been changed), are now at the point where you can put significantly more stress on them. This stress can prove catastrophic. You will find that axles are far easier to snap.

Now back to winching: your winch line is the axle, your snatch blocks are the transfer case. You are still pulling 28,500lbs with a winch line that can only handle 10,000lbs.

Where are my physics off?
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Unread 10-11-2013, 11:37 AM   #50
GrantYJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Awesome View Post
Yes. You are thoroughly confusing me.

I am not talking about using a 9500lb winch to pull a 9500lb load with multiple snatch blocks. I am talking about a 9500lb winch pulling a 28,500lb load. This is possible using two snatch blocks, because you are essentially regearing your winch in a 3:1 ratio.

I'll use a driveline as an example.

You put a 4:1 kit in your transfer case. This decreases strain on your engine to the point where you are now able (some on this forum have done it) to pull a semi truck. Your axles, which are still working at the same "ratio" they always were (only the power has been changed), are now at the point where you can put significantly more stress on them. This stress can prove catastrophic. You will find that axles are far easier to snap.

Now back to winching: your winch line is the axle, your snatch blocks are the transfer case. You are still pulling 28,500lbs with a winch line that can only handle 10,000lbs.

Where are my physics off?
The simple answer is "yes".

The more complicated answer:

Using your metaphor, your line isn't one axle. Your line is now three axles. The easiest way that I know to explain this is to think about each segment of winch line as being it's own line. Where two lines come together, you need to be able to handle twice the winch capability just as if you had two winch lines attaching to that point (because you do now).

Using a snatch block is effectively turning your single line into multiple lines while simultaneously shortening all of them and keeping equal tension on all of them. The snatch block needs to be able to handle twice what your winch will (i.e 16k min. for an 8k winch). It gets trickier when you start using more than on snatch block. The rules don't change for the line (line only has to handle the tension of what the winch is rated) or the snatch blocks (they only have to handle twice the winch rating); however, where you're attaching all this pressure matters.

I have two snatch blocks, two very heavy chains (for rocks or etc.), two tree savers, and several clevises that are all capable of handling twice my winch capability. To set up a triple line pull, I would have attach from winch to snatch block (@ 2x winch rating) (attached with a clevis (@ 2x winch rating) to tree saver/chain (@ 2x winch rating)) back to snatch block #2 (also @ 2x winch rating) (attached with clevis #2 (@ 2x winch rating) which is hooked to the bumper), and finally back to tree saver/chain #2 (@ 1x winch rating) through either the third clevis or hook.

In the example above, the reason for two tie off points at the pull object is that I don't want to put a 24k-30k load on a single clevis, chain, or tree saver (I have an 8274 which is rated at 8k; however, pulls beyond it's rating).

The thing to bring away from this is that if you always have independent attachment to the pull object, your attachment hardware only needs to be able to handle twice the winch output. The vehicle end is a whole lot trickier. All that pressure effectively has to go through your front bumper attachments to the frame. That's where you need to worry. If your frame, bumper, fasteners, and etc. aren't up to the task, you're going to break things.
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Unread 10-11-2013, 11:54 AM   #51
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Or..........

Pick up 20lbs with your left arm, now use both left and right arms to pick up same 20lbs, each arm is lifting 10lbs now. OK, now have GrantYJ help out with his right arm, now the load is (grabbing my calculator, hold on) 6.66lbs. NOW, have wilson1010 help with his left arm. So we have both your hands and GrantYJ's Right arm and wilson100's left arm (feeling cozy huh?) lifting same load=5lbs (did not need a calculator for that one)

wait, that did not make sense. Should of been now with four arms we can lift 80lbs.

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Unread 10-11-2013, 12:26 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WSS View Post
Or..........

Pick up 20lbs with your left arm, now use both left and right arms to pick up same 20lbs, each arm is lifting 10lbs now. OK, now have GrantYJ help out with his right arm, now the load is (grabbing my calculator, hold on) 6.66lbs. NOW, have wilson1010 help with his left arm. So we have both your hands and GrantYJ's Right arm and wilson100's left arm (feeling cozy huh?) lifting same load=5lbs (did not need a calculator for that one)

wait, that did not make sense. Should of been now with four arms we can lift 80lbs.

^^^ Exactly!

On a side note, that's a nice looking bumper WSS.

The Clevis mounts on mine are 1" X 2" bar stock. They run through both walls of the tube as well as the winch plate that wraps the end of the frame(when I build this bumper, I was planning on running a planetary). I welded the clevis mounts to the tube (on both faces) with plenty sticking out on the back side to run through the wrap around winch mount, then welded there as well. Finally, I welded around the edges where the wrap around winch mount met the tube (multiple passes on top and bottom).

bumper.jpg

Clevis mounts formed and welded to tube bumper, sitting in place to check alignment before welding to the winch mount.

bumper-2.jpg

I wanted to make sure that the clevis mounts would be in line with the frame attachment bolts for the final bumper.

bumper-3.jpg

Welded and mocked up.

jeep-crop-1.jpg

As it sits today.
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Unread 10-11-2013, 03:23 PM   #53
Awesome
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Wow Grant, that is one nice-looking "CJ."

My dad explained it to me, and yes, I was only half-right. Your line weight is never exceeded, even though you ARE able to pull multiple times more load than what either your winch or cable was rated for. This makes me happier about buying 10k-rated winch line instead of 20k-rated for use when using snatch blocks.

However, I also learned from you that my front bumper's welded-on D-ring shackles will probably not be safe for use with snatch blocks. They are 1/2" I believe, so they wouldn't be safe. I'd need to tie off to both of them. I am not sure what my front hooks are rated at, but they probably aren't more than 16,000lbs.

So now I'm thinking I either need to make extensive modifications to my front bumper, or I need to build a new one that will take enough weight to use snatch blocks. Yours looks nice, Grant, but I like my hoop.

IN OTHER NEWS: The winch is now fixed. Figured out (after melting a wire) that the ground to the battery was not grounded at the battery. I am going to redo my winch connections properly. We've already replaced the melted wire with an 8-gauge wire grounded directly to an existing hole in the frame.

100 feet of 5/16" winch line fits on a Rugged Ridge 8500lb winch. I bet 100' of 3/8" line would fit as well, as I could probably get another 40 feet of 5/16" line on the winch.
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Unread 10-11-2013, 05:27 PM   #54
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Glad to hear you found the problem.

Get a pair of these:

http://www.quadratec.com/products/17004_9002.htm

They give an excellent place to connect a winch. You should run both cables (both same size at least 2awg) directly to the battery as it is the most trouble free place for power.
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Unread 10-11-2013, 05:30 PM   #55
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I have a top-post battery. I like their top-post terminals, but I'd have to redo my battery cables with ring terminals in order for that to work. I have a thread posted about that in the "Electrical" section.

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f20/w...winch-1674577/
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Unread 10-11-2013, 05:35 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrantYJ View Post
^^^ Exactly!

On a side note, that's a nice looking bumper WSS.

The Clevis mounts on mine are 1" X 2" bar stock. They run through both walls of the tube as well as the winch plate that wraps the end of the frame(when I build this bumper, I was planning on running a planetary). I welded the clevis mounts to the tube (on both faces) with plenty sticking out on the back side to run through the wrap around winch mount, then welded there as well. Finally, I welded around the edges where the wrap around winch mount met the tube (multiple passes on top and bottom).

Attachment 749857

Clevis mounts formed and welded to tube bumper, sitting in place to check alignment before welding to the winch mount.

Attachment 749865

I wanted to make sure that the clevis mounts would be in line with the frame attachment bolts for the final bumper.

Attachment 749873

Welded and mocked up.

Attachment 749881

As it sits today.

Is that an evolution of bumpers or the same bumper? Well built for sure. Good idea to tie the wrapped winch plate, bumper and clevis mounts all together in one unit. You will probably not find the "max" now. Nice CJ too.

I cheated on mine and used a CNC plaz to cut out the rear bumper. My front will probably be changed to more your sytle when I get some other chores out of the way. I'll most likely do it when i do the tube fenders and tie in the stinger to the fenders.









Front channel bumper

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Unread 10-11-2013, 05:49 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Awesome View Post
IN OTHER NEWS: The winch is now fixed. Figured out (after melting a wire) that the ground to the battery was not grounded at the battery. I am going to redo my winch connections properly. We've already replaced the melted wire with an 8-guage wire grounded directly to an existing hole in the frame.

100 feet of 5/16" winch line fits on a Rugged Ridge 8500lb winch. I bet 100' of 3/8" line would fit as well, as I could probably get another 40 feet of 5/16" line on the winch.

just posted on your new thread a link to some dist. blocks. Glad your on the way!

New bumpers are always cool, go for it.

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Unread 10-11-2013, 07:25 PM   #58
GrantYJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WSS View Post

Is that an evolution of bumpers or the same bumper? Well built for sure. Good idea to tie the wrapped winch plate, bumper and clevis mounts all together in one unit. You will probably not find the "max" now. Nice CJ too.

I cheated on mine and used a CNC plaz to cut out the rear bumper. My front will probably be changed to more your sytle when I get some other chores out of the way. I'll most likely do it when i do the tube fenders and tie in the stinger to the fenders.

WSS,
I can't remember if it's the exact same bumper in all three shots (I've built three sets using the same design for other guys), but they're all the same.

Thanks for the kind words (you too Awesome), but it's a YJ with a CJ front clip.
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