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-   -   I need a shop recommendation; Am I asking too much? (http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f262/i-need-shop-recommendation-am-i-asking-too-much-1811050/)

matteo92065 11-20-2013 03:19 PM

I need a shop recommendation; Am I asking too much?
 
Where can I take my jeep (in San Diego) to have my Death Wobble fixed?

I want them to look at it, driving it, measuring it, and shake it; tell me what is causing it; then fix it.

I donít want to pay a shop for their ďexperimentsĒ or to further their education/knowledge on the subject.

Iíve read over and over again that a jeep should not have DW with steering stabilizer removed, so I want a shop that can solve DW without steering stabilizer installed.

Iím throwing in the towel on this one. I need to have someone else with lots of experience and whatever else it takes to fix my Death Wobble. Iíve been to two different shops that claimed they knew what DW was, but could not fix it, AND in the process caused me to spend more money and effort to fix non-related things.
I have done whatever I could to fix it myself. I have checked and rechecked things. I have replaced lots of stuff. I have had tires balanced and rebalanced. I have posted and discussed the problems in the TJ section.
Is there a repair shop, in San Diego, that most will agree that is best for this job?

Joe Dillard 11-20-2013 05:52 PM

There are a few techniques we use to check for causes of DW.

If you wish to drive to Rancho San Diego, which is basically the southeast side of El Cajon, I can look at it.

BTW: Yes, there are lots of "shops" that couldn't diagnose their way out of a wet paper sack & have you toss $ at non related or misdiagnosed items, all the while screwing you around.

brokenyoujoint 11-20-2013 05:56 PM

What he said. DW is only caused by a few things and usually can be seen with the eye and hands.

jbolty 11-20-2013 06:03 PM

What they said. The cause is usually pretty obvious.

Are you in Ramona, or here in SD?

premo 11-20-2013 06:48 PM

what all has been done/tested, and what are the specs of your jeep? IE, what mods, lift, tire size, etc. When was the last time you had your alignment done, what was your caster looking like?

seriously, what Joe said about the shops around here..

matteo92065 11-21-2013 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brokenyoujoint (Post 17873626)
What he said. DW is only caused by a few things and usually can be seen with the eye and hands.

and

Quote:

What they said. The cause is usually pretty obvious.
YES!, DW should be easy to diagnose, But I canít for the life of me fix it or find out what is causing it. (Although I still blame the tires)
This is from a thread I started months agoÖ http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/fr...ght-dw-1541222

+++++++++++++++++++
Quote:

It started out with all my concurrent suspension and tire upgrades. I went from a stock í05 TJ to a 3Ē Curry/Savvy lift, all new steering (save steering stabilizer and steering box), & new 33Ē tires. Its developed a shake and death wobble since then. Its mostly a shake, but has developed into a full DW a couple of times. Iíve had the tires balanced and rotated 3 times in 500 miles. I checked and moved around my caster a few times. Plenty of dry steer tests. The track bar (new Savvy) is tight on both sides (only small compression of rubber bushing). Iíve adjusted my steering box to what I thought was near perfect. I was afraid of moving the adjustment too much, so I only gave it about ľ turn tighter. Iíve done exhaustive reading on this forum about DW, shake, and steering boxes.
I donít drive the jeep very much on the street partly because of this problem. {side note question: Can you have DW while flat towing? This would surely destroy your front end in a hurry!}
I like to think that I can figure everything out and fix most things by myself. I knew I needed to take it to an alignment shop to at least get the base line numbers on camber/caster/toe etc.
So I took it into a local shop and asked them to fix my jeep. The mechanic knew was DW was and was sure he could find and fix my problem. They keep my jeep for 2 days and the verdict wasÖ The steering box. The shop said that my box had play in it and that they tightened itÖ a lot. But that I could expect that it would wander around a lot because the box is worn out and needs to be replaced. They said I should drive it around and evaluate it. Looking at the adjustment screw; which is normally two threads above the lock nut, is now 2-3 threads BELOW the lock nut. The shaft that the pitman arm attaches to is now really low and showing a shiny metal ring that use to be up in the box. Drove it home(6 miles), it did wander around, but very little shake/wobble. The steering wheel can now be turned an inch or two before the tires start to move. I get home and the box is covered in oil.
Iíve always suspected I might need a new steering box, but NOW I for sure need a steering box. (Let the reading and searching JF begin)
+++++++++++++++++++
So since then I put a new steering box. Drove it and at ~50mph it had severe DW. Drove back home, slowly, and put on a Rancho steering stabilizer on. Took it out for a couple of drives and all was good. I was good with this band-aid.
Several weeks later and a couple hundred miles, the DW is coming back. I need this thing fixed! I canít do it :(

I will also mention that it has also been to Clarence Brown Alignment Shop, for an inspection on why it has DW. To be fair, It was not left with them to really tear into it but just inspect it. They found nothing wrong or out of spec. Camber/caster was all with in appropriate ranges.

Quote:

what all has been done/tested, and what are the specs of your jeep? IE, what mods, lift, tire size, etc. When was the last time you had your alignment done, what was your caster looking like?
I tried to update my profile with the latest mods etc. Savvy 3" SA lift kit. Savvy Trackbar, All new steering parts (OEM), 285/75R16 MTR's. If you need more info than what is in the profile, let me know. I don't have the numbers on the caster with me. Before the alignment I did play with the caster, and from what I could tell it just moved the speed at which the DW starts.

Quote:

If you wish to drive to Rancho San Diego, which is basically the southeast side of El Cajon, I can look at it.
I would happily drive anywhere in SD to get it fixed. Is this something that I need to make an appointment for? How long do you need the vehicle?

Yes, I live in Ramona, and work in Mira Mesa. Luckly, I don't have to drive the Jeep to work!

brokenyoujoint 11-21-2013 10:38 AM

I think we need to pick a day and have a pow wow inspection with as many of us as possible. A few things you can do on your own: take off your front DS and drive it and see if it happens. Then put it back on and do the same for the rear.. Get a torque wrench out and torque everything down to spec. EVERYTHING! DW isnt isolated to track bar and wheels and general alignment. It can be a loose suspension component. Just a few thoughts that I'm sure you've already considered and possibly checked. How severe and at what times does it occur? When you hit a bump or at 10mph, then goes away etc....

matteo92065 11-21-2013 11:34 AM

Have not taken Drive shafts out. I have tried (and will try again) to torque things down. I've gone so far as marking everything with http://www.mcmaster.com/#1476T122 to see if anything has moved slightly.

The DW usually comes on at ~50mph. Cold tires seem to make it worse. When it does start to happen I've learned to get slower immediately. If I try to get a little more speed then all hell will break loose and I go into survival mode trying to bring the Jeep to a safe stop.

One of the big problems with me fixing it is for every test drive it goes into full DW, I'm risking my (and people around me) safety, and most likely tearing other components up.

jbolty 11-21-2013 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matteo92065 (Post 17890770)
and



YES!, DW should be easy to diagnose, But I canít for the life of me fix it or find out what is causing it. (Although I still blame the tires)
This is from a thread I started months agoÖ http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/fr...ght-dw-1541222

+++++++++++++++++++
+++++++++++++++++++
So since then I put a new steering box. Drove it and at ~50mph it had severe DW. Drove back home, slowly, and put on a Rancho steering stabilizer on. Took it out for a couple of drives and all was good. I was good with this band-aid.
Several weeks later and a couple hundred miles, the DW is coming back. I need this thing fixed! I canít do it :(

I will also mention that it has also been to Clarence Brown Alignment Shop, for an inspection on why it has DW. To be fair, It was not left with them to really tear into it but just inspect it. They found nothing wrong or out of spec. Camber/caster was all with in appropriate ranges.



I tried to update my profile with the latest mods etc. Savvy 3" SA lift kit. Savvy Trackbar, All new steering parts (OEM), 285/75R16 MTR's. If you need more info than what is in the profile, let me know. I don't have the numbers on the caster with me. Before the alignment I did play with the caster, and from what I could tell it just moved the speed at which the DW starts.


I would happily drive anywhere in SD to get it fixed. Is this something that I need to make an appointment for? How long do you need the vehicle?

Yes, I live in Ramona, and work in Mira Mesa. Luckly, I don't have to drive the Jeep to work!


I'll speak for Joe right now since he will be at work.

Joe is not a business, just a guy who has lots and lots and lots of experience and likes to help out. Generally he will not so much do the work, but will help you learn to do it yourself. Same goes for lots of us here.


Quote:

Originally Posted by brokenyoujoint (Post 17891202)
I think we need to pick a day and have a pow wow inspection with as many of us as possible. A few things you can do on your own: take off your front DS and drive it and see if it happens. Then put it back on and do the same for the rear.. Get a torque wrench out and torque everything down to spec. EVERYTHING! DW isnt isolated to track bar and wheels and general alignment. It can be a loose suspension component. Just a few thoughts that I'm sure you've already considered and possibly checked. How severe and at what times does it occur? When you hit a bump or at 10mph, then goes away etc....

Good idea.

I'm in Clairemont and will be home most of the weekend if you want to come by. There's a long history of jeep repair parties at my place. I've lost count of how many axle swaps have been done there.

brokenyoujoint 11-21-2013 12:00 PM

DW at 50? Interesting. I think you may be confusing DW with vibration... DW means you think your gonna DIE! Literally! Years ago I had a cam washer on my lower control arm not seated correctly and when I pulled out of a parking lot to accelerate on a street, when I got to about 15 mph I said, OH JESUS IM GONNA DIE!" It felt like my front end was trying to fly off to the left then swing back and fly off the right and back and forth more violent ea time. Not insulting intelligence as you seem reasonably smart but I would say its a large rotating mass thats causing grief ie: rims/tires, possibly driveshafts/joints. If it were your trackbar(s), tierod, draglink, CA's you'd notice it at any speed esp when you hit a bump. At 50 if you hit DW you really, most likely, will die.

premo 11-21-2013 12:46 PM

its not to out of line to have DW at that speed, i had it at around 45-50 in my JK. it was absolutely terrifying. it was either come to a near full stop or throttle out of it. i'm curious to know what your caster was measured as. have you or anyone checked control arm bushings? how did you check your track bar? also, what kind of trackbar is it? what about ball joints and wheel bearings? that's reallll unfortunate to hear about your steering box. also, all this happened after the lift/tires you said?

i tend to agree with Kevin and Jeff and I too think a meet and greet is in order. get the whole group in to have a look at it...then have beer and wings. lol

brokenyoujoint 11-21-2013 01:19 PM

I bet a 6 pack of choice that it can be found within 3 hrs of a meet and greet. That's probably with 1 hr of that estimate drinking beer and reaching for napkins. Lets not forget to look at wobbled out bolt holes if the DW has been ongoing. That's a real hard fault to find because we assume that torqued bolts = two happy components.

matteo92065 11-21-2013 01:34 PM

Clairemont, I love C-town. My first house was on Conrad Ave. Near Clrmt Square. I grew up in UC.

It is for sure DW. Yes, the possibility of death has crossed my mind while in mid DW.
The Control Arm Bushings are all new Jonny Joints. The Track bar is Savvy with JJ on one end.
Ball joints on steering are all new. Ball joints (on knuckles) and wheel bearings are 60K miles old (original). To check the Ball Joints and wheel bearings and all other components, I've been dry-steering it, and jacking wheel and shaking, trying to spot looseness. Both alignment shops checked all this stuff the same way I did. I would love to find out its a bad wheel bearing! But so far all that seems good.

Hanging out with guys, few beers, food, all sounds great.

I am still however crying 'uncle'. I've bolted & fixed everything on this Jeep myself. I've cut, welded, wired, bleed-on, and fabricated all sorts of cool stuff (IMHO :) ) on this Jeep. It is a great hobby for me and my 9 year old son. But this problem has kicked my *** long enough. Maybe I have more money than sense right now.
Is there a place that everyone agrees is the best shop for this job (just incase I/we still can't figure it out)? We can still meet and I'll give a growler of Arrogant Bastard or Horny Devil to the person who correctly guesses what the ultimate solution was.

matteo92065 11-21-2013 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brokenyoujoint (Post 17896114)
I bet a 6 pack of choice that it can be found within 3 hrs of a meet and greet. That's probably with 1 hr of that estimate drinking beer and reaching for napkins. Lets not forget to look at wobbled out bolt holes if the DW has been ongoing. That's a real hard fault to find because we assume that torqued bolts = two happy components.

Ok. I'm in! :2thumbsup:
Rules of the game/bet?...
1) No Death Wobble with Steering Stabilizer removed up to 65mph.
2) ?

jbolty 11-21-2013 02:03 PM

OK. So when is this shindig going to happen?


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