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Unread 11-05-2010, 12:06 PM   #1
Chewtoy
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Lizard Skin + Raptor or other liner?

So I ran across the Lizard Skin product the other day and thought it was an interesting idea for spray in or roll in heat / sound insulation. After some searching I found a few folks on here who mentioned they were experimenting with it and maybe doing layers of Raptor or other bedliner over the top of it. The hotrodders love it, but they don't treat the inside of their classic like we treat a Jeep.

Due to the price of Lizard Skin it was just an "interesting concept" to me until I ran across a way to make it at home for like $20. So now I would like to find out from those that have used it in their jeeps if it made any difference at all? Good? Bad? How did it turn out if you put Raptor or other bedliner on top of it? Durable?

Thanks in advance for any and all personal stories on this subject.

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Unread 11-05-2010, 01:53 PM   #2
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I've worked with Lizard Skin and I would say that there is no problem putting bedliner over it. My doubts concern your claim to have made it at home for $20. What are you messing with that you think is going to work?
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Unread 11-05-2010, 01:54 PM   #3
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Based on this thread here alternative to Lizard Skin
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Unread 11-05-2010, 02:14 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chewtoy View Post
Based on this thread here alternative to Lizard Skin
After a quick read of that thread I will say that it is correct that the Lizard Skin is made from light weight ceramic microspheres and it MIGHT work to try that yourself. The only problem I can guarantee is that whatever you create from exterior water base paint is not going to hold up as a tough coating inside a Jeep tub.

There is going to be too much water in the latex paint (not enough acrylic binder) to hold the ceramic together from a durability standpoint.

SO..I will offer some advice on how to do it the right way. Go to a mason yard that sells Thoroseal cement waterproofing products. Find some "Acryl 60" which is as close to straight acrylic binder as you can find without being a paint chemist. It's a white liquid, looks like milk. Now experiment. Mix some microspheres with the Acryl 60. Start mixing by volume measured 2 parts liquid to 1 part microspheres. Keep in mind that you will not be making something with colored pigment here so it may cure almost clear/milky white. If you want color just add a small amount or exterior acrylic latex paint. Add more microspheres until you get the consistency you want. If it gets too thick, add some more acrylic

This is my mad chemist advice for the day
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Unread 11-05-2010, 02:41 PM   #5
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LOL thanks magnet man! Please pardon my ignorance on the chemistry, I can build computers and networks around the world but don't know the difference between acrylic, latex and peanut butter. And just for the record, I have not made this stuff, so far I am just reading and researching to find out if it would be worth the effort.

I gathered that the latex would not be all that durrable, which prompted the question about putting the Raptor or Monstaliner over the top. You think it would make a difference? Be helpful?

Heck, could we achive the same or simaler results by mixing the microspheres in with Monstaliner?
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Unread 11-05-2010, 02:59 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chewtoy View Post
LOL thanks magnet man! Please pardon my ignorance on the chemistry, I can build computers and networks around the world but don't know the difference between acrylic, latex and peanut butter. And just for the record, I have not made this stuff, so far I am just reading and researching to find out if it would be worth the effort.

I gathered that the latex would not be all that durrable, which prompted the question about putting the Raptor or Monstaliner over the top. You think it would make a difference? Be helpful?

Heck, could we achive the same or simaler results by mixing the microspheres in with Monstaliner?
Monstaliner will get way too thick if you added the lightweight micros. It already has a good slug of not so light weight ceramic. Problem with the light weight stuff is that is is not very strong. Works great as insulating filler but not to tread on heavily. Those guys on the Hotrod forum are on the right track for sound/insulating but it's all concealed, non-walking surface application.

Bedliner would lock in the insulating coating but without testing we don't know how long before it gets damaged. It's like painting a rigid sponge. How long before the surface gets an impact that will dent and shatter.

That thread been going since '06 so certainly someone has had some success playing chemist in their garage. I'm not going to read all 15 pgs. but we experimented a few years ago to make a lizard skin type product. Monstaliner was more important.

Hey I'm pretty good with computers too. Just build a video edit system w/24GB Ram and GTX480 GPU.
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Unread 11-05-2010, 03:03 PM   #7
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Understood. Thanks for the feedback! That is why I love this forum.

Dang you are looking to edit some serious video!
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Unread 11-05-2010, 03:09 PM   #8
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Understood. Thanks for the feedback! That is why I love this forum.

Dang you are looking to edit some serious video!
I just looked up the Microsphere tech data and just as a reference point, the ceramic in Monstaliner has a 60,000 psi crush strength vs the light weight insulating type that has a 250 psi crush strength.

That RAM is mainly for big Photoshop files. Video is not as demanding and uses the GPU power mostly
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Unread 11-09-2010, 04:49 PM   #9
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Couldn't imagine it being any different that painting over paintable rubberized undercoating as far as the durability factor is concerned. the inside of a hard top may have potential. Hmmm!
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Unread 11-09-2010, 05:10 PM   #10
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Couldn't imagine it being any different that painting over paintable rubberized undercoating as far as the durability factor is concerned. the inside of a hard top may have potential. Hmmm!
I have a dry sample of lizard skin in my office. It's like you poured a thick puddle of latex paint and let it dry for a year. It cracks a little when you bend it and it dents pretty easy.

I agree for inside a hard top. Not sure for inside a tub. Maybe under a tub.
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Unread 11-13-2010, 08:32 PM   #11
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Hey Magnet man I want to do my YJ tub and chassis next Spring. I'm doing some research in the NET about many products such as Eastwood Rust Converter, Encapsulator, POR15, Rustbullet and Zerorust to mention a few.

Looks like the PO put some sort of bedliner like HERCULINER, do you think I have to sand it before apply anything else?. I'm thinking about Monstaliner but it looks very thick. The chassis saver needs to be top coated, right?
Please advise
Thanks

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Unread 11-14-2010, 06:45 PM   #12
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Hey Magnet man I want to do my YJ tub and chassis next Spring. I'm doing some research in the NET about many products such as Eastwood Rust Converter, Encapsulator, POR15, Rustbullet and Zerorust to mention a few.

Looks like the PO put some sort of bedliner like HERCULINER, do you think I have to sand it before apply anything else?. I'm thinking about Monstaliner but it looks very thick. The chassis saver needs to be top coated, right?
Please advise
Thanks

OK, Ill tell you what I know about the products you listed.

First, the rust converter is a tannic acid product with a water base acrylic binder. Many products like this on the market. Translucent milky white to amber liquid that turns a rusty surface black and must be topcoated for any real protection. Products like this do nothing to stop rust and the word "convert" means really nothing more that convert the appearance.

see here for a good explanation
http://www.duluxprotectivecoatings.c...Converters.pdf

Eastwood Rust Encapsulator and Zero Rust are the same type of products. Both are modified alkyd primers that need to be topcoated. They are not very flexible, crack easily and don't withstand impact well without chipping. They have good adhesion to metal. Both overpriced for what they are.

POR-15, Rust Bullet and Chassis Saver are all the same type of moisture cure urethane chemistry. None are UV stable which only means that they need to be topcoated if you want to retain a long term gloss/appearance. The coatings theselves do not lose their physical strength, only appearance. Since Rust Bullet comes in mainly silver it is like Chassis Saver silver and does not really change in the sun. Chassis Saver remains priced 15% to 40% lower than both RB and POR.

Regarding Monstaliner over Herculiner, I would coarse wire cup brush the surface to remove any loose rubber particles and bad coating and then seal it with one coat of Chassis Saver gloss black. Yop can then install Monstaliner within 24 hours over that with no issues.
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Unread 11-14-2010, 08:34 PM   #13
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Good info, have you had any experience with Second Skin Audio's Spectrum or Sludge?
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Unread 11-14-2010, 08:44 PM   #14
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Good info, have you had any experience with Second Skin Audio's Spectrum or Sludge?
Never heard of either. Post a link?

Second Skin Sludge sounds like a contraceptive cream
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Unread 11-14-2010, 08:47 PM   #15
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Never heard of either. Post a link?

Second Skin Sludge sounds like a contraceptive cream

Second Skin Spectrum - Noise & Vibration Sound Deadener Coating
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