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Unread 05-16-2010, 10:46 PM   #1
YJake
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I want to paint the YJ, how should I go about prep work? (Rough paintjob currently)

Well I've been wanting to paint the YJ for some time now. The previous owner paid somebody to do a TERRIBLE paintjob over the original and it has developed chips now a few years later.

I feel the need to strip the tub to bare metal because of how deep some of these chips are, some took the paint and primer exposing metal and causing some rust. But, how should I go about this?

-Should I just sand it all down very well and try taper the chipped spots?

-Should I take a wire wheel to the whole tub and start over by getting the tub to bare metal and using a self etching primer before spraying CARC on it?

Any info would be great. I'm looking to use Rapco paint and am going the Desert Tan route (Flat Finish). I don't want a factory finish or anything, but I don't want a bunch of imperfections in the paintjob either.

Jake

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Unread 05-17-2010, 05:00 PM   #2
YJake
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Any opinions folks?

I'm tempted to just take a wire wheel to the whole things right now.

Jake
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Unread 05-18-2010, 05:23 PM   #3
Troy1
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Well Im no expert on painting. But I will say that the paint is only as good as the prep work. I use to work in a autoparts place and we sold autobody paint. Over the years I have used some of the products on various things.

Taking it down to bare metal will give you a good idea of whats under what you already have. Then you can use a etch primer and then spay a highbuild primer over that. The highbuild primer or high solids primer is ment to fill in sand scratches so you dont spend too much time sanding to a finer paper. The etch primer will give you good adhesian to the bare metal. I think a wire wheel will take to long to strip the paint maybe look at usuing like 100grit disc on an air tool or electric grinder of some sort.

It really comes down to how much you want to spend and the quality of work you are prepared to do or pay someone else to do.

If you want a cheap job then the spots that are comming off just sand and featheredge those spots, prime and paint. I hope this kinda helps you out a bit.
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Unread 05-18-2010, 05:29 PM   #4
93jeepyj
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I wouldn't take the whole thing to bare metal, too much work and it wont show in the final product anyway. Any areas where theres rust need to be taken down to bare clean metal and hit with the etching primer and depending on how thick the resquirt was i'd at minimum sand back to good paint where the chips are if not take the whole jeep back to the original paint.
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Unread 05-18-2010, 10:17 PM   #5
YJake
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Thansk for the suggestions folks, still looking into things currently.

Troy, I had planned to use my angle grinder with a wire wheel on it for stripping the paint off.

Jake
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Unread 05-18-2010, 11:11 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by YJake View Post
Thansk for the suggestions folks, still looking into things currently.

Troy, I had planned to use my angle grinder with a wire wheel on it for stripping the paint off.

Jake


Hope this helps.

I give this out all the time. Some may not apply.
But you'll get idea.

1. Wash with detergent. Don't eat chicken wings in the garage and always keep your hands clean from grease, oil, and wax,
2. Wipe down all surfaces to be painted with silicone/wax/grease remover.
3. Do steps 1 and 2 before ever thinking about sanding. Ignore this and you will grind contaminates right into the panel.
4. Remove paint where body work must done. If you remove all paint you might forget where the dent and dings are. 100-180 grit, but there will be 1000 opinions about this.
5. Do all body repair
6. All the paint does not have to be removed if it is in good shape. Your call. Mask areas where you don't want covered by primer.
7. Prime the entire surface to be painted. No need to prime everything if there is paint that is in good shape. I usually do prime everything
8. Depending on the color of primer, say gray, buy a spray rattle can of black sandable primer to be used as a guide coat. A guide coat is a dusting of the surface with a contrasting color so that when you sand you know the surface is flat when the contrasting color is all gone.
9. Now you need to make a choice,,, is this going to be a slam job or do you really want it flat and smooth like a pro job? I would start now with 220 wet knowing that much of the primer applied will come off. I used the paper wrapped around a paint stick.
10. When your guide coat is gone, or mostly gone, you'll find some areas that may need a little more prime to build up low spots. Prime away.
11. Switch to 320 Wet if you have it or 400 and use the paper in a paint stick again. If you did your body work correctly you should be done using the stick.
12. Prime any areas that are at bare metal or fiberglass and complete the sanding process using 400 wet wrapped around a soft hand sanding pad. No finer the 400. Remove old masking tape and paper, apply new.
13. You are ready to use a primer sealer,,, follow the directions. A good primer sealer will do two things. It will remove the possibility of bleed through from former paint if it exists,,, usually red will be the worst offender. Sealer will also reduce the sand scratches visible after the paint cures. It will usually hide up to 320 grit.
14. Use compressed air and a tack cloth to remove dust that has landed on the vehicle, paying close attention to getting dust out of crevases.
15. Mix paint per manufacturers instruction.
16. Spray paint per manufacturers instruction. Single stage Urethane or Acrilyc Enamel will take 2-3 coats, I lean toward 3. No sanding between coats unless you have a run and plan to use a clearcoat. (Hopefully you're not spraying metallic your first time)
17. If you want to have a show finish, apply clear coat per manufacturers instructions. Let dry for a week. A profeshional may move to the next step the next day.
18. Water sand with 1000 grit using paper around a soft sanding pad, then move to 1500 wet, the 2000 wet.
19. Buff with a compound recommended by the paint manufacturer, or your personal preference. Remember to point a power buffer away from corners or you'll burn it off and you will be moving back to somewhere around step 13.
20. Sit back and think of your mistakes, I gaurantee you've made some. I still do after 20 years.
21. Enjoy and plan your next paint job,,, there will be others.
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Unread 05-22-2010, 09:34 AM   #7
Dryseals
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YJake View Post
Well I've been wanting to paint the YJ for some time now. The previous owner paid somebody to do a TERRIBLE paintjob over the original and it has developed chips now a few years later.

I feel the need to strip the tub to bare metal because of how deep some of these chips are, some took the paint and primer exposing metal and causing some rust. But, how should I go about this?

-Should I just sand it all down very well and try taper the chipped spots?

-Should I take a wire wheel to the whole tub and start over by getting the tub to bare metal and using a self etching primer before spraying CARC on it?

Any info would be great. I'm looking to use Rapco paint and am going the Desert Tan route (Flat Finish). I don't want a factory finish or anything, but I don't want a bunch of imperfections in the paintjob either.

Jake
Don't take it down to bare metal unless you know what you are doing. You'll have a nightmare on your hands. Unless the vehicle has a bad rust problem from underneath, sand only to the factory primer at the most.

Try a razor blade first and see what you can peel off. If the old paint job is chipping, chances are they did a poor quality adhesion.

Paint makes a chemical/mechanical bond, it's pretty easy to tell where that bond took place and where it didn't. Only remove what did'nt bond to the factory paint. Then use an adhesion promoter, the paint stores all sell it. It reacts to the base material creates a bond betwen that and the next coat.

And there's where the trick is. Each manufacturer has their own line of paints. Each is made to bond to the other in stages, ie, if you use dupont primer, use all dupont paints made for each stage. If you break that chain trying to save a few bucks, you'll break the chemical/mechanical bonding.

Take a look here
This is transtar, kind of generic answer to the higher cost manufacturers. Look at all the different primers. Each has their own purpose. At that same site you can read some of their tech papers. It'll give you some idea as to what I'm saying.
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Unread 05-22-2010, 01:02 PM   #8
YJake
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Thanks for the advice and link!

Jake
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Unread 05-22-2010, 10:18 PM   #9
gtome
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I disagree, I would take to bare metal. You never know what some other hack has done! Take it down and do it right. You will be rewarded with a job that looks good, lasts a long time, and the knowledge you gain is priceless.

The knoted wire wheel on an angle grinder works great, just keep it moving and dont generate too much heat.
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Unread 05-22-2010, 11:57 PM   #10
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I disagree, I would take to bare metal. You never know what some other hack has done! Take it down and do it right. You will be rewarded with a job that looks good, lasts a long time, and the knowledge you gain is priceless.

The knoted wire wheel on an angle grinder works great, just keep it moving and dont generate too much heat.
I'm not much for internet wars, but I will say your advice is poor. I would never advise some one without paint knowledge to strip a vehicle to bare metal, you're inviting problems, huge problems. Bare metal flashes to rust quickly and if you're not familiar with bare metal, then you are better off staying away from it. I've used the "go to factory primer" method for years, it works well.

Using a knotted wire wheel is for amatures and those who don't know any better. While I might do a ships hull that way, I would never do a car that way. The wire wheel creats grooves in the metal that invites rust pockets. And the added friction creates weak spots in the metal causing it to deform and wrinkle.

Please do us all a favor, if you want to wire wheel your vehicle, go for it. But don't advise folks to do the same, they may not want the results you offer. Painting a car is both art and science, learn the science first before you steer folks in the wrong direction.
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Unread 05-23-2010, 03:09 AM   #11
gtome
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I'm not much for internet wars, but I will say your advice is poor. I would never advise some one without paint knowledge to strip a vehicle to bare metal, you're inviting problems, huge problems. Bare metal flashes to rust quickly and if you're not familiar with bare metal, then you are better off staying away from it. I've used the "go to factory primer" method for years, it works well.

Using a knotted wire wheel is for amatures and those who don't know any better. While I might do a ships hull that way, I would never do a car that way. The wire wheel creats grooves in the metal that invites rust pockets. And the added friction creates weak spots in the metal causing it to deform and wrinkle.

Please do us all a favor, if you want to wire wheel your vehicle, go for it. But don't advise folks to do the same, they may not want the results you offer. Painting a car is both art and science, learn the science first before you steer folks in the wrong direction.
I agree, I am not into internet wars either. But I feel advising someone to do the job 50% is no more sound. I personally would be heartbroken if I did that much work, only to have problems that may not be able to be seen, come back to bite me.

While a wire wheel may cause grooves, so does sandpaper... correct? In my experience, heavy paper may be worse than a wire wheel. But really to each his own. I and many others have used this method, may not be the best option, but many dont have the option of blasting (or a razor blade) or what not. And lets be honest, there is a method, but its not rocket science.
Get the metal bare, scrub in some Picklex, let it dry overnight, scuff of the rough stuff, epoxy, high build, paint. Not that tough?


I have been building show cars for 17 years, there is no question of my results.

Last edited by gtome; 05-23-2010 at 03:22 AM..
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Unread 05-23-2010, 10:31 PM   #12
Dryseals
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I agree, I am not into internet wars either. But I feel advising someone to do the job 50% is no more sound. I personally would be heartbroken if I did that much work, only to have problems that may not be able to be seen, come back to bite me.

While a wire wheel may cause grooves, so does sandpaper... correct? In my experience, heavy paper may be worse than a wire wheel. But really to each his own. I and many others have used this method, may not be the best option, but many dont have the option of blasting (or a razor blade) or what not. And lets be honest, there is a method, but its not rocket science.
Get the metal bare, scrub in some Picklex, let it dry overnight, scuff of the rough stuff, epoxy, high build, paint. Not that tough?


I have been building show cars for 17 years, there is no question of my results.
The whole premise of this thread is a guy wanting to redo a paint job that was flawed. Obviously he does not have the experience for painting a vehicle, other wise he wouldn't have posted. I take this and human nature into the responses I give.

For a novice to strip to bare metal invites too many problems. You said it your self, you have 17 years doing this, he has none. You know by feel when to pull the wire wheel away from the metal before it distorts, he doesn't. You know how and when to treat the metal, he doesn't. That is why I tell folks to go to factory primer and stop. Even smoothing out the factory paint is good enough. The end result for them will be better.

A guy on a budget is not going to want to spend $150 a gallon on picklex, it just not going to happen, he'll cut corners, it's his pocket. You have folks paying the bill, it's their pocket.

I've painted for over 20 years now, I've learned a lot of lessons, mainly that short cuts cause problems. Folks coming here are not asking for a show car finish, they just want it to look good and that can be easily accomplished by doing things they are capable of.

Most folks don't have a controlled enviroment, this guy lives in Orlando, high humidity. So flash rust will be a problem down to bare metal. It's doubtful that he has a shop and all the tools he needs for doing this in the manner you suggest.

I like to give advice based on what they can do with what they have at thier disposal, a small garage and a few tools, some blood sweat and tears. To me it's better to guide them along those lines.

The first car I ever painted was a 72 MGB, in my front yard, single stage enamel, borrowed compressor, worn out gun. Twenty years later it still looked good even after going under water with hurricane Ike.

Baby steps, if you jump of to quickly you tend to drown. Give them a chance to learn.

And for what it's worth, I would never suggest epoxy primer to an amature, too many variables. Self etching is easier to control for some one who has never painted and has limited resourses. Just my opinion, but I'll stick by it.
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Unread 05-23-2010, 10:49 PM   #13
YJake
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Really good stuff here guys.


Dry seals, you did hit the nail on the head. I'm in a high humidity climate with nothing more than a 2 car garage to use as a painting booth (lots of keep stuff in the garage as well!)

I'll start looking over the paint job for chips and such that will require extra attention. Then I'll be able to sand down to the factory primer everywhere else, which is fine for me. But, there are a few spots that are bare metal now (Hood mostly) but the body is just chipping down to the original paint, which can be sanded evenly.

Now, at this point after sanding correctly I'll be able to use a self-etching primer correct? That should provide a nice base for a paint like the CARC substitute I'm looking at from what I understand?

Here's a link to the paint color and website: 33446 "686" Tan - C.A.R.C. Substitute Current desert color. Desert Storm to present.

Not much info there, but it is a carc sub. from everything I've read if that makes a difference in how it interacts with the primer, etc.

Jake
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Unread 05-24-2010, 12:29 AM   #14
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I would use a roloc pad or scotch-brite pad on the end of a pistol grip grinder. But you dont want to strip the paint off until you locate all the fixes that need done, How will you see small dents and pin holes? Its alot easier for a novice to work one problem at a time so you dont get over your head. But the steps listed are point out what to do and what not to do. Theres a million ways, The steps listed are as good as anyone else's. Another good thing to keep away is silicone, Tire spray, Aerosol sprays etc will contaminate it 50 yards away, It gets airborne and it will cause nothing but problems. Good luck it not too hard and fun when you start to see the results you want.
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Unread 05-24-2010, 11:16 AM   #15
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There are sme good points being made here. I was just offering what I feel is the best solution to a problem.

I know the kinds of challenges he faces, I live in Daytona Beach. This can be complex, but there is only one way to learn, and that is to get out in the garage and do it. I also restore cars in a garage, no fancy paint booth here.

There are other options to the Picklex by the way. Ospho will do the same job and it is more affordable.

My very first paint job I read and read and read. I had a one car garage, very few tools, a HF gun, a couple sanding blocks and a DA. It was a 1965 VW Bug. I too could take it to a show and probly win it as well.

I think trying to do little spot repairs is going to take longer and give less than great results. But really I guess it is whatever the OP is comfortable with.

Dryseals: I am really curious what variables you are talking about with epoxy primer? I personally would never use etch primer anymore, its just too likely to react with something else that had acid in it. Epoxy primer, to me, would be a must with anything over a quarter size spot of bare metal.

I guess really to sum up what I am talking about is: You may spend months and hundreds of dollars.... not meantion all the time you will have in it. What if there is rust forming? Then in 6 months, you start getting bubbles and all that work is down the tubes. You are going to be sooo close to having the thing stripped that it would only take a few more hours of work to have it bare. You can strip a car in panels too. Do a section, Opspho, or Picklex it, and its good to go. Move to the next section, and do the same. When its all bare, and covered in Ospho, you knock off any remaing scale, clean it good, and put a couple coats of epoxy on it. Then lay say 3 coats of high build 2k primer on, and start blocking. Few days with a long board and the thing is laser straight and ready for paint (depending on how straight the body is of coarse). If you do it in little areas, you will be trying to blend, and spot primering....etc...

Too bad the OP wasnt just a little closer, i would be glad to lend a hand
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