The Wasteland Survival Guide: Engineering Greta - Page 7 - JeepForum.com
Search  
Sign Up   Today's Posts
User: Pass: Remember?
Advertise Here
Jeep Home Jeep Forum Jeep Classifieds Jeep Registry JeepSpace Jeep Reviews Jeep Gallery Jeep Clubs Jeep Groups Jeep Videos Jeep Events Jeep Articles
Go Back JeepForum.com > General Jeep Forums > Jeep Builds > The Wasteland Survival Guide: Engineering Greta

Great prices on seating!--Oconee Off-RoadTJ 5.25" Speaker Adapters - NalinMFGTJ, YJ & LJ Drop Down Tail Gate Conversion Kit

Reply
Unread 03-23-2012, 03:37 PM   #91
robd2003
Registered User
2002 WJ 
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Vincennes, IN, IN
Posts: 1,340
Subscribed, love how your doing your upgrades and posting it on here. From time to time my wife comes out to the garage and gets her hands dirty on the wj. Not yet my K10 but im working on it ha.

__________________
Jeeps:
99' XJ<->5.5" Lift; 35's; SYE; Winch; much more goodies too
02' WJ<->Rebuilt from wreck, still stock
robd2003 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-23-2012, 06:29 PM   #92
Sundowner
Part-Time Swami
 
Sundowner's Avatar
2003 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: The Republic of Dave
Posts: 6,144
The Saga of The Fuel Injectors...

Note: This is a story about basic troubleshooting and the dangers of f****** around with non-stock components in experimental ways. If my results, methods, tips and conclusions seems like common knowledge to you, remember this: there was a time in your life when you, too, didn't already know it all. Also, please use some common sense with some of the more flammable techniques described thereafter...don't set yourself or your Jeep on fire.

A few days ago, I began an experimental test to see whether or not a set of four-hole Ford fuel injectors would function correctly in the TJ 4.0, and if they would yield any sort of performance benefits. The plan was to swap them in at the same time I changed tire sizes, so that I could get a baseline reading with the new injectors. After a few tanks of gas I would swap my cleaned-up stock injectors back in and see what sort of change in performance I got.

From the start, we had issues. The Ford injectors were very hard to get into place in the fuel rail...we struggled and struggled and struggled with every aspect of swapping them. I'd like to say that there was some sort of nefarious cause at work, but honestly: it was just one of those days where nothing wanted to cooperate. Even the fuel rail was being difficult, and it's RIGHT THERE. It's right there! It's not even hard to get to!




Actually, you know what probably caused it? Greta being mad at me because I never took off that stupid K&N sticker that the previous owner put on there because he thought he did something smart. That has to be it. Ugh...party foul on my part. I gotta fix that.

In all seriousness I assumed the problems were due to stiffer O-rings but I found out a few days later that I was wrong: the O-rings were actually being distorted a bit due to a slight difference in the size of the ring grooves on the Ford injectors, and even with silicon grease on them they didn't want to seat properly in the fuel rail. I thought I had them solidly in-place when I first installed them but upon pressurizing the fuel rail I found that the #4 injector was leaking...in fact, it was spraying fuel directly onto the manifolds. This was an extremely dangerous situation so we quickly shut everything off and got ready for a fire; I had the extinguisher pulled from its carrier in the front seat. However, the gas just boiled on the top of the engine and dissipated.

With the danger over we pulled the rail, changed out the O-ring in #4, and got it all buttoned up and the computer re-set. Then I had the same problem with #5. Same extinguisher drill as before, only slightly more rehearsed. To summarize: we pulled and re-installed everything about three times over a hot engine. I'd say we screwed around with it for at least two or three hours. This was my first clue that it wasn't a modification that was going to work, but I wanted to give it a fair shot.

When we finally got it all sealed up everything ran fine until about four days later, when I got the dreaded P0171 code.

Why is P0171 so dreaded? Because it can be immensely hard to track down and fix, at times. It results from an overly-lean condition being detected in the exhaust on the upstream O2 sensor in Bank 1. So...one of the front three cylinders was malfunctioning in terms of air/fuel. Nothing was detectable in the engine actually running so there was no reason to panic over it. Serious problems usually have serious symptoms; you can usually tell when something is going horridly awry.

Even though I had a suspicion that the fuel injectors were the culprit, I wanted to do some systematic troubleshooting. With that in mind, P0171 comes from three things, usually:
- A dirty MAF sensor.
- A vacuum leak.
- A faulty O2 sensor.

Well, I don't have a MAF sensor, so that's out. Vacuum is harder to detect...it could come from cracked lines, cracked fittings, or - gods forbid - a cracked gasket or manifold. However, it's easy to search out:

Valuable Information: Starting Fluid is CHEAP, and when it gets into an engine that's running it will cause a momentary hesitation and then a surge in idle. To find a vaccum leak, introduce starting fluid systematically to different areas of a cold engine...using it on a hot engine could cause a fire in some cases, so don't do it. Spray it in your intake at first to see the change in idle that you're looking for, and then go over anything that looks even partially vacuum-related. Don't just hit the lines...soak fittings, canisters, sensors, manifolds, gaskets...soak EVERYTHING. If you go over the engine systematically and slowly, any sort of vacuum leak can usually be found. If you use less than about three cans, you've not used enough. If the engine gets hot while doing this, then stop, let it cool, and start again. Always keep a fire extinguisher on hand. I've never seen starting fluid light from hitting a hot surface, but it's still flammable. Use this technique at your own risk!

So I soaked the entire top half of the engine, and didn't get any results. That left only one normal culprit: the O2 sensors.

Valuable Information: When you're tracking down a code that has something to do with an O2 sensor and the sensor itself is suspect, you can try swapping the positions of the sensors themselves. In my case, I can swap either the uppers or the lowers, front to rear. If you do this and get the same code showing up with a different sensor in place, you know that you actually have an issue and that the sensors are good. If you get a different code that seems to follow the sensor, then your sensor is bad. It's a free diagnostic...and saving money is always good in the wasteland.

But wait, there's more!

Valuable Information: O2 sensors are surprisingly easy to get out. You don't need an O2 sensor socket to do it. All you really need is a 22mm wrench and some Liquid Wrench. Again, we start with a cold engine, and we spray penetrating oil on the sensor connections. If the spray begins to smoke then the exhaust is still hot: wait a few minutes and try again. When it hits and doesn't immediately smoke, you're good to go. Soak the sensor connections and then fire up the engine. Let it run for a few minutes and then shut it down: if you start seeing smoke coming from the sensor connections, immediately shut down the engine and wait until everything cools...the smoke is the oil beginning to burn off. Repeat this pattern a few times...the heat and cooling cycles will help the penetrating oil work into the threads of the sensors and then they'll come right out. Heavy rust may take more work. Again, use this method at your own risk, and keep the extinguisher handy. You DO have a fire extinguisher in your rig, don't you?

After the sensors are out they can change places with each other. However, in my case there's a slight issue...namely, the sensor plugs themselves are different. Here's the female part of the front sensor connection:




And here's the non-matching rear:




Those plugs are identical, except for the position of that stupid little alignment rail on the left side...it's dropped down on the rear plug. The inner connector is exactly the same, and it's only the outer housing that prevents swapping the sensors front-to-rear. For the life of me, I don't know why they're different. As an example: 2004 O2 sensors are the same part number, if I recall correctly...so there's no reason - electronically - that they can't be swapped front to rear for the free diagnostic in that year or any other. In this case it's a purely physical appendage that doesn't have any real reason for existing...sort of like the human appendix.

This is irritating as hell, but the good news is that we're not out of luck...all it takes is a slight modification to the male portions of the plugs, and they can be moved one to the other. To modify the male portion of the plug you simply file off the offending alignment rail, as indicated thusly.




And then you snap them together! Don't think it'll work and connect properly? Fine, here's a shot of the rear O2 sensor plugged into the front O2 sensor connection, and working just fine.




Keep in mind that with an O2 sensor connection, each side is a double connector...the female side is female on the inner connector and the outer shell, and the male is male in both portions respectively. What does this mean? Simple: even after filing off one guide rail, there are still two additional guide rails and an entire housing left to properly align, secure and weather-protect the connection. There's no danger in making this modification if you want to check sensor function.

After the sensors were swapped I cleared the computer, fired Greta back up, and waited about five minutes. Sure enough, P0171 showed back up...the O2 sensors were thereby perfectly fine, which meant that the injectors were the last thing that could possibly be causing a lean condition. I moved the O2 sensors back to their proper locations and removed the fuel rail for what seemed like the eightieth time. Several of the O-rings stuck in place, and had to be gently removed. What I found upon removing those stuck rings is a seriously disturbing image if you know what you're looking at:




Those are torn and distorted O-rings that were still holding pressure, somehow. Look to the center of the image...on the left, an O-ring with a large chunk missing from the surface. On the right, the telltale signs of a ring that was pinched. Neither of these caused an issue while installed, but at some point these rings would likely have failed catastrophically.

What caused the damage? As I said, the diameter of the Ford injector O-ring grooves and the placement of the rings on them was slightly different...but it was different enough that it caused the injectors to be ultra-difficult to install and remove, which in turn caused the crushing and tearing of the rings. When I replaced the stock Jeep injectors and O-rings they literally popped into place with no complaint. I was amazed at the effect of such a minute difference in sizing. When Greta was fired up with the stock injectors back in place, P0171 was nowhere to be found. No leaks, no hassle, no struggle.

Moral of the Story:

1) Sometimes, the listed causes of a code aren't the things that are responsible. Use your head. In this case, I knew what was likely the problem and a few minutes of work made sure of it. This saved me from spending extra time and money chasing my tail.

2) O2 sensors can be as easy as anything else to remove, if you prep them properly.

3) When you're doing anything experimental with an engine, USE EXTREME CAUTION. I glossed over the gas leak earlier, but the truth of it was that somewhere around a quarter cup of gas was shot over the top of a still-hot engine in the time that the rail was pressurized. That much fuel is enough to cause a serious fire, which could destroy your Jeep and/or cause someone serious injury or death. This happened because I wasn't paying enough attention. Learn from this mistake.
__________________
If it's worth doing, then it's worth overdoing.

The Republic of Dave: Bringing you the finest in simian testing supplies.

The build, the gear, and the mileage: The Wasteland Survival Guide
Sundowner is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-23-2012, 07:57 PM   #93
Kodiak17
Registered User
1998 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Kutztown, PA/ Andover, NJ, Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,705
How do you like the Falkens? Gonna bite the bullet this summer on a set...
__________________
Maintain, wheel, upgrade, repeat.

My build: http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f22/thor-dd-weekend-warrior-1348534/
Kodiak17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-23-2012, 08:13 PM   #94
Sundowner
Part-Time Swami
 
Sundowner's Avatar
2003 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: The Republic of Dave
Posts: 6,144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kodiak17 View Post
How do you like the Falkens? Gonna bite the bullet this summer on a set...
The Falken Wild Peaks are doing a great job so far but they are very pressure-sensitive. I wouldn't run them above 26 PSI or so; that was the point where they stopped feeling "too hard" on the road. However, they're also one of the quietest tires I've ever run...much less road noise than the Terra Grapplers. I can't hear them, essentially. On-road wet traction is great...no problems in a spring rain shower on a twisty mountain road. Off-road, they've got good grip in loose dirt and light gravel. I can't see that they're good for mud at all, but that's not a huge concern for me. I haven't tested them enough to say anything more at this point, but rest assured, I will.
__________________
If it's worth doing, then it's worth overdoing.

The Republic of Dave: Bringing you the finest in simian testing supplies.

The build, the gear, and the mileage: The Wasteland Survival Guide
Sundowner is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-23-2012, 08:20 PM   #95
Kodiak17
Registered User
1998 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Kutztown, PA/ Andover, NJ, Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundowner View Post
The Falken Wild Peaks are doing a great job so far but they are very pressure-sensitive. I wouldn't run them above 26 PSI or so; that was the point where they stopped feeling "too hard" on the road. However, they're also one of the quietest tires I've ever run...much less road noise than the Terra Grapplers. I can't hear them, essentially. On-road wet traction is great...no problems in a spring rain shower on a twisty mountain road. Off-road, they've got good grip in loose dirt and light gravel. I can't see that they're good for mud at all, but that's not a huge concern for me. I haven't tested them enough to say anything more at this point, but rest assured, I will.
Thanks, they're relatively new to the market so its nice to hear some first hand experience.
__________________
Maintain, wheel, upgrade, repeat.

My build: http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f22/thor-dd-weekend-warrior-1348534/
Kodiak17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-23-2012, 08:35 PM   #96
Sundowner
Part-Time Swami
 
Sundowner's Avatar
2003 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: The Republic of Dave
Posts: 6,144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kodiak17 View Post
Thanks, they're relatively new to the market so its nice to hear some first hand experience.
Yes, they're very new and not many are running them. Data on them relating to TJ's is almost non-existent at this point.

It's worth mentioning that I love to experiment. We here at Muppet Labs are always looking to try something new if it looks: A) Useful, B) Fun, C) Dangerous, or D) All of the above.

One of the biggest benefits of owning a Jeep is the ability to venture into the unknown...and that applies not only to the times when you have four wheels on the ground, but also to when you have no wheels on the ground, or no wheels on the Jeep. Improvise, adapt, overcome...and always experiment, whether on the trail, the road, or on jack stands.

Be innovative! Run untested tires! Scrounge new parts! Scrounge old parts and make new stuff! Owning a Jeep of any sort is an experience rife with opportunity to expand one's knowledge...which - as even the slower members of the class now know - is the most crucial part of thriving amongst the humans.

May you enjoy the Falkens when you get them, my friend, and may you evolve quickly as a result.
__________________
If it's worth doing, then it's worth overdoing.

The Republic of Dave: Bringing you the finest in simian testing supplies.

The build, the gear, and the mileage: The Wasteland Survival Guide
Sundowner is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-23-2012, 08:41 PM   #97
Kodiak17
Registered User
1998 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Kutztown, PA/ Andover, NJ, Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundowner View Post
Yes, they're very new and not many are running them. Data on them relating to TJ's is almost non-existent at this point.

It's worth mentioning that I love to experiment. We here at Muppet Labs are always looking to try something new if it looks: A) Useful, B) Fun, C) Dangerous, or D) All of the above.

One of the biggest benefits of owning a Jeep is the ability to venture into the unknown...and that applies not only to the times when you have four wheels on the ground, but also to when you no wheels on the ground, or no wheels on the Jeep. Improvise, adapt, overcome...and always experiment, whether on the trail, the road, or on jack stands.

Be innovative! Run untested tires! Scrounge new parts! Scrounge old parts and make new stuff! Owning a Jeep of any sort is an experience rife with opportunity to expand one's knowledge...which - as even the slower members of the class now know - is the most crucial part of thriving amongst the humans.

May you enjoy the Falkens when you get them, my friend, and may you evolve quickly as a result.
That was very inspirational, maybe even quotable! But yes I have to agree, having a jeep is all about learning and adapting to what happens. At 17, tires are a huge expense for me, but reviews have been great on them. I also like no-ones running them, because it makes your rig that much more unique. Anyways, I appreciate your wise words! Thank you.
__________________
Maintain, wheel, upgrade, repeat.

My build: http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f22/thor-dd-weekend-warrior-1348534/
Kodiak17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-23-2012, 08:50 PM   #98
Sundowner
Part-Time Swami
 
Sundowner's Avatar
2003 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: The Republic of Dave
Posts: 6,144
Well, if you're going to quote it, quote it now that I've fixed the typo in it!
__________________
If it's worth doing, then it's worth overdoing.

The Republic of Dave: Bringing you the finest in simian testing supplies.

The build, the gear, and the mileage: The Wasteland Survival Guide
Sundowner is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-23-2012, 09:31 PM   #99
dwbrown
Registered User
2014 JK Wrangler 
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: McGuire AFB, New Jersey
Posts: 1,621
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundowner View Post
Improvise, adapt, overcome...and always experiment, whether on the trail, the road, or on jack stands.
__________________
USAF
dwbrown is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-23-2012, 09:32 PM   #100
Kodiak17
Registered User
1998 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Kutztown, PA/ Andover, NJ, Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundowner View Post
Well, if you're going to quote it, quote it now that I've fixed the typo in it!
Got it covered
__________________
Maintain, wheel, upgrade, repeat.

My build: http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f22/thor-dd-weekend-warrior-1348534/
Kodiak17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-24-2012, 06:40 AM   #101
Sundowner
Part-Time Swami
 
Sundowner's Avatar
2003 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: The Republic of Dave
Posts: 6,144
Today's Jeeping: scrounging up supplies for The Much-Needed Compressor Relocation Project, and figuring out a way to accurately turn down the unit bearing diameters for the larger brake rotors that are coming from Savvy.
__________________
If it's worth doing, then it's worth overdoing.

The Republic of Dave: Bringing you the finest in simian testing supplies.

The build, the gear, and the mileage: The Wasteland Survival Guide
Sundowner is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-24-2012, 10:57 AM   #102
CaptA-Stud99Tj
Registered User
1999 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Visalia, Ca
Posts: 40
CRAWLED!
__________________
Two things to remember gentlemen... Happy Wife, Happy Life and Build it, don't buy it!
CaptA-Stud99Tj is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-24-2012, 12:00 PM   #103
Sundowner
Part-Time Swami
 
Sundowner's Avatar
2003 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: The Republic of Dave
Posts: 6,144
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptA-Stud99Tj View Post
CRAWLED!
Thank you, sir! And do I ever agree with that signature line!
__________________
If it's worth doing, then it's worth overdoing.

The Republic of Dave: Bringing you the finest in simian testing supplies.

The build, the gear, and the mileage: The Wasteland Survival Guide
Sundowner is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-24-2012, 12:16 PM   #104
spyder6
Got that Toyota chit
 
spyder6's Avatar
2010  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 12,044
__________________
2010 Magnetic Toyota 4Runner Trail Teams

My builds: Bruiser and The Grey

|Forge Overland| or follow us on Facebook
spyder6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-24-2012, 06:22 PM   #105
Sundowner
Part-Time Swami
 
Sundowner's Avatar
2003 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: The Republic of Dave
Posts: 6,144
The Saga of The Problematic Rear Shock, Part Two...

So, as soon as I got the lift installed and the tires bolted on for the first time, I took Greta out for a spin around the neighborhood...basically nothing more than a way to hit a few bumps and start settling things into their proper places. Everything worked pretty well except for one slightly mysterious occurrence: while I wasn't watching, someone had seemingly duct-taped an irate chipmunk inside the right rear wheel well.

I got back to the shop and took out a flashlight from the toolbag - you DO have a flashlight in your rig, don't you? - and checked the wheel well. There was no chipmunk. Two thoughts went through my head: 1) no rodent that small has a cloaking device, and 2) there should be no unwarranted noises being emitted from any portion of a brand new shock.

Since the noise wasn't awfully bad I decided to see if a bit of movement over the next couple of days would help quiet it down. Well, that didn't happen...in fact, the noise seemed to know that I didn't consider it "awfully bad" and it just kept getting worse. The fact that the noisy shock was the same model that has caused the hangup in the first place was just painfully ironic...I had begun to think that N67 shocks have it out for me. However, the noise soon reached a fairly consistent level and ceased worsening...thus, I thought it was just a dry or stuck bushing. I put in an e-mail to ARB and they agreed: noisy bushing. They said to try a penetrating lubricant on the bushings, or - failing that - to simply pull the shock back out and get some grease into whichever end was causing the squeak. I elected to try a Teflon spray before pulling the shock out.

Here's the upper bar pin, now coated in a dry film of Teflon. In the future, this entire area will be impossible to hold on to, should I need to do so.




And here's a picture of Anna working some of the Teflon spray in and around the lower bushing. I swear, I actually do some of the work on this Jeep...it's not just her.




After she got done with that I took Greta out for a quick test drive on some gravel; I figured the slight bouncing would help work the lubricant inside the bushing and mount. Result? No improvement at all...Invisible Chipmunk was still in residence somewhere around the right rear shock.

Since Invisible Chipmunk is unable to be captured on camera, we have substituted his stunt double: Judgmental Chicken.




At this point it became clear that the spray lube wasn't going to work; so, I drove back to the shop and pulled the shock. I got bearing grease worked around both bushing ends. When I got it re-installed, the noise was still there. So I pulled it out again. This time I worked bearing grease directly into the bushings, re-installed the top, pulled the bottom side-to-side to create gaps around the top bar pin, shot some thin lubricating oil in, and basically repeated that process on the lower bushing. Then I re-installed it and...the noise was still there.

I was exasperated, but a realization came to me, then: I was working blind. I still hadn't actually located the noise. I needed to figure out the exact source. While underneath the Jeep I pushed and prized and twisted the shock and kicked at the bumper and...nothing. I just couldn't convince it to make a single noise, although I made several unmentionable ones. If I stood on the bumper and jumped up and down I could make it squeak all f****** day, but this meant that I wasn't under the Jeep to see what was causing it. Again...irony.

I got Anna to help with the bouncing, even though she hardly weighs enough to flex Greta's rear suspension. She does, however, make for a lovely Complimentary "Girl Bouncing On Rear Jeep Bumper" Picture.




Sometimes, it's all about being in the right place at the right time. I finally got some results...results that I didn't want. At all. The noise was coming from inside the shock.



As soon as Anna caused the suspension to move enough to create the noise, I realized that it wasn't a bushing at all...it was something to do with the shaft inside the metal dust shield. I could actually feel the shock squeaking when I put my hand on it. So we decided to shoot Teflon up inside the dust shield. Anna handled the Teflon while I did the jumping-on-bumper duties.




And suddenly it was a bit better! On the next test drive the noise was somewhat abated. So we just shot more of the Teflon inside, hoping that it would again hit whatever was causing the problem...but we had marginal success, this time: no reduction in noise levels. Flexing the rear suspension slowly didn't make the noise...it was only something that happened under the rapid movement of normal road travel. The next day or two saw no change in the slightly-better squeaking. It wasn't a solution, but at least we had an idea as to the culprit.

And that's where we're at right now. I've got an e-mail in to ARB, so we'll see what they say. I'm suspecting a problem with the shaft itself.

Moral of The Story: Don't do things in half-measures. If I'd pulled the shock out to start with and messed with it until the noise happened, I'd not have wasted a couple hours and several gallons of gas...not to mention half a can of Teflon spray and some bearing grease. I'd probably have it fixed, already. Do things right the first time whenever possible.

To be continued...
__________________
If it's worth doing, then it's worth overdoing.

The Republic of Dave: Bringing you the finest in simian testing supplies.

The build, the gear, and the mileage: The Wasteland Survival Guide
Sundowner is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
annabelle , bewbs , chic-fil-a , custom , d&d , fallout , firefly , girly things , guns , half cab , hard tonneau , needs to go wheeling , overbuilt , photography , pin-up , sammiches , starwars , survival , wasteland
Thread Tools


Suggested Threads





Jeep, Wrangler, Cherokee, Grand Cherokee, and other models are copyrighted and trademarked to Jeep/Chrysler Corporation. JeepForum.com is not in any way associated with Jeep or the Chrysler Corp.