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Unread 06-10-2013, 12:01 PM   #4831
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In a blind test, I doubt 50% would be able to tell a difference.
In a Jeep with a strong bias toward on-road behavior, I think the DF's 'cushy' characteristics will smooth things out more than a JJ. Much like C vs D vs E load tires. More cushion between the street and frame results in less NVH. I'm personally buying/have Rokmen lowers and Savvy uppers. The cushy ride isn't a high enough priority to swap out the 8 JJ's I already own.

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Unread 06-10-2013, 12:13 PM   #4832
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First of all, you won't max out a double JJor MC joint before steering, anti sway bars, drive shafts, or fitting giant travel shocks becomes an issue.

The return to center feature for me is only nice if you have bent arms.

From what I gather everyone in the MC thread has experienced positive ride quality benefits including Imped who has direct experience with both joints.

There is a reason (beyond cost) that Jeep used rubber in the control arms, coil spring isolators, transmission and engine mounts, and body mounts. This all to reduce NVH.

Shocks cannot move fast enough to handle vibration or small hits. This is the reason for all the rubber in the system, to absorb everything the shocks can't handle. Moreover, the shock's primary job is to keep the tires on the ground, not for ride comfort.

Here's an experiment. Take your engine mounts out and sold weld the engine to your frame.

See if you can tell a difference.
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Unread 06-10-2013, 12:18 PM   #4833
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundowner View Post
A force - motion -


Motion is best described as a vector consisting of speed and direction, i.e. velocity. Force, while also a vector (magnitude and direction) causes motion (or inhibits when combined with additional forces).



I have to agree with the prevailing sentiment - any difference in ride quality is likely to be minute. Wear handling, longevity, and durability are my main concerns; and, in all honesty, how smooth a ride are you looking for/expecting while crawling over large rocks?

And as for your attempts at painting in this, shall we say, damp? weather we've been having... bravo!

The hood looks great, man. Really great.
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Unread 06-10-2013, 12:44 PM   #4834
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_dippert View Post
In a blind test, I doubt 50% would be able to tell a difference. In a Jeep with a strong bias toward on-road behavior, I think the DF's 'cushy' characteristics will smooth things out more than a JJ. Much like C vs D vs E load tires. More cushion between the street and frame results in less NVH. I'm personally buying/have Rokmen lowers and Savvy uppers. The cushy ride isn't a high enough priority to swap out the 8 JJ's I already own.
Solid points, there. I do want a decent ride, but I just don't see a lot of potential difference, either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clintrivera View Post
First of all, you won't max out a double JJor MC joint before steering, anti sway bars, drive shafts, or fitting giant travel shocks becomes an issue.
I am of the same opinion; other stuff is going to bind due to simple geometry before the joints will...especially if there's a non-binding joint on either end of the control arm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clintrivera View Post
The return to center feature for me is only nice if you have bent arms.
Which I won't have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clintrivera View Post
From what I gather everyone in the MC thread has experienced positive ride quality benefits including Imped who has direct experience with both joints.
I'd like to do a blind test of my own, and see if I can tell; the arms will take either joint so they could easily be swapped for an objective comparison. No matter how appealing and interesting the comparison might be to both me and the readers of this thread, it's still an expensive proposition...unless Currie and MetalCloak want to help me out with the puchase, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clintrivera View Post
Shocks cannot move fast enough to handle vibration or small hits. This is the reason for all the rubber in the system, to absorb everything the shocks can't handle. Moreover, the shock's primary job is to keep the tires on the ground, not for ride comfort. Here's an experiment. Take your engine mounts out and sold weld the engine to your frame. See if you can tell a difference.
And since my poly body mounts and engine mounts do transmit a touch more vibration, this makes sense; however, I'm concerned more about dampening moderate impacts and overall freedom of movement, suspension-wise. In that light, it may simply be a matter of subjective preference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unholycowgod View Post
Motion is best described as a vector consisting of speed and direction, i.e. velocity. Force, while also a vector (magnitude and direction) causes motion (or inhibits when combined with additional forces).
That's a good correction to make; thank you. Also, thank you for the compliment on the hood and the paint-work.
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Unread 06-10-2013, 12:47 PM   #4835
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundowner View Post
That's a good correction to make; thank you.
I aced Pedantic 101 back in the day.
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Unread 06-10-2013, 12:58 PM   #4836
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Originally Posted by spyder6 View Post
I challenge anybody to try and tell the difference in ride quality Currie vs MC

Not saying its a bad joint. It looks very promising - but better ride isn't a good measure
Challenge accepted and already completed. You know as well as anyone how loyal I am to Currie and you should also know that when it comes to suspension, I don't mess around. My junk is dialed in as well as anyone's on this forum and the only change that was made were the bushings. The difference is very noticeable and positive. It didn't ride poorly before, not even close. And if you look up early threads before I had any interest of trying them, you'll see I was very critical and apprehensive of the claims. The only advice I can give anyone that shares that same apprehension is to try them. I did and they're staying put. My reports match the reports of just about everyone else who has gone from JJ's to the Duroflex bushings so I'm not sure why you'd come up with such a challenge....

Sundowner, I've got years on JJ's and a few thousand miles on these. Ask away, I'll be nothing but unbiased and honest.
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Unread 06-10-2013, 01:13 PM   #4837
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Have you been to Attica with them yet? Front CA's and new steering and I'll be ready to hit up Badlands again.
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Unread 06-10-2013, 01:14 PM   #4838
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I couldn't tell a difference between the stock rubber bushings and the JJs in my rokmens other than the handling was sharper. I have not ridden in a DF bushinged JK yet that is setup identical to mine.

Granted, I don't know of my inability to tell the difference is based on the fact that the JKs control arms are half again as long as the TJs in stock form.

My only claim based on that is simply what I said. Using the ride as a variable is something that is so minuscule it shouldn't be reasoned. At least in my opinion.
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Unread 06-10-2013, 01:23 PM   #4839
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Originally Posted by Imped View Post
Sundowner, I've got years on JJ's and a few thousand miles on these. Ask away, I'll be nothing but unbiased and honest.
I was hoping that you might show up for this, because I've been thinking on a simple way to ask my question and I think I have it, now: What is the source of the actual change in ride quality, and what exactly are the differences that you've experienced? You said that it's "very noticeable and positive"...so does that mean that it's softer or more comfortable, or that it's less noisy, or that it feels more precise or responsive, or what? I'm looking for a quantified explanation of a qualitative analysis, and also the source of the qualitative differences, themselves; that would be of much help, and it would make for an interesting read.
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Unread 06-10-2013, 01:47 PM   #4840
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_dippert View Post
Have you been to Attica with them yet? Front CA's and new steering and I'll be ready to hit up Badlands again.
Yep, pulled an all nighter getting them installed before the trip back in February. I'd like to get something setup soon, late June or July so let's talk. I'll go ahead and start a thread in the Indiana section, make sure to join in. But anyway, I beat on them the whole day and they were great....I was able to go faster through the whoops than I ever have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyder6 View Post
I couldn't tell a difference between the stock rubber bushings and the JJs in my rokmens other than the handling was sharper. I have not ridden in a DF bushinged JK yet that is setup identical to mine.

Granted, I don't know of my inability to tell the difference is based on the fact that the JKs control arms are half again as long as the TJs in stock form.

My only claim based on that is simply what I said. Using the ride as a variable is something that is so minuscule it shouldn't be reasoned. At least in my opinion.
I don't know what to tell you. If the difference was minuscule, I wouldn't be all about them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundowner View Post
I was hoping that you might show up for this, because I've been thinking on a simple way to ask my question and I think I have it, now: What is the source of the actual change in ride quality, and what exactly are the differences that you've experienced? You said that it's "very noticeable and positive"...so does that mean that it's softer or more comfortable, or that it's less noisy, or that it feels more precise or responsive, or what? I'm looking for a quantified explanation of a qualitative analysis, and also the source of the qualitative differences, themselves; that would be of much help, and it would make for an interesting read.
I've speculated on the 'whys' in my review, have you checked that out?

Here are a couple thoughts:

The DF bushings require less breakaway torque than JJ's. In other words, it takes a lot more force to turn the JJ center ball around its center axis than it takes to turn the DF bushing around the same axis. Remember, the JJ center ball moves around inside the two stationary bushing halves. The DF bushing actually rotates inside the barrel. The less breakaway torque required, the less resistance to rotational movement, which is the exact movement needed to allow the suspension to compress and expand while you're driving. That "micromotion" control relates directly to that and isn't wishy washy BS like it looks initially.

Also, to address some of your points earlier:

Wear--while the 'bearing surface area' is a lot larger for the DF bushing on paper, I don't think it matters in regards to real world wear and durability. We all know how durable the JJ is and I couldn't even wear one single bushing out all while running dry for three years. It's just a non-issue. But, when it comes to contaminant resistance, I think it needs to be noted that I was able to get some sand and grit inside the JJ's....and it was all between the center ball and bushing (bearing surface), not between the barrel and outer bushing bore. The DF bushing is a sealed, one piece unit where all of the contaminants were able to get in on the JJ's. The only place for any junk to go is the bearing surface and I'll do a check of that this week and report back.

As for noise, I never had any noise out of the JJ's, even when dry. I've never had any noise out of the DF bushings and I don't expect it. Another non-issue.

In terms of throttle response, I haven't noticed any real-world difference but on paper, the JJ should win. The DF bushings allow a little deflection and the JJ's don't allow squat. This does not translate to a sloppy feel for the DF bushings--the steering and ride control are still very precise and tight.

The better ride quality comes from the softer material, which absorbs quite a bit more. I not only noticed an improvement over road imperfections but also noticed a decrease in drivetrain noise transmitted through to the frame and then to the cab. When I installed them all in February I still had the bad pinion bearing whine going on....the sound through to the cab was quite reduced and I had two witnesses with me who noticed it without me mentioning anything.....one, a Jeep buddy and another my girlfriend. I think the other factor is the required breakaway torque and, given that, it could also be hypothesized that these will provide a better-than-factory-bushing ride since they don't move at all in that manner. Essentially, the axles are able to move in the up-and-down manner very easily and smoothly, where the stock bushings don't like to move that way and JJ's resist the movement due to the preload on the center ball.
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Unread 06-10-2013, 02:01 PM   #4841
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundowner View Post
I was hoping that you might show up for this, because I've been thinking on a simple way to ask my question and I think I have it, now: What is the source of the actual change in ride quality, and what exactly are the differences that you've experienced? You said that it's "very noticeable and positive"...so does that mean that it's softer or more comfortable, or that it's less noisy, or that it feels more precise or responsive, or what? I'm looking for a quantified explanation of a qualitative analysis, and also the source of the qualitative differences, themselves; that would be of much help, and it would make for an interesting read.
I am also interested to hear about this, I have duroflex joints on the rear and Curries on the front and once I get the rig finished am wondering if I will notice a difference between the two..
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Unread 06-10-2013, 02:03 PM   #4842
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Originally Posted by rusty762 View Post
I am also interested to hear about this, I have duroflex joints on the rear and Curries on the front and once I get the rig finished am wondering if I will notice a difference between the two..
Funny, I actually drove around for a week (maybe two, don't remember) with only the rears installed before I could do the fronts. Go over some speed bumps when you first go out and let me know what you think.
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Unread 06-10-2013, 03:29 PM   #4843
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imped View Post
I've speculated on the 'whys' in my review, have you checked that out?
I think I have, but it's been awhile. I need to look it up again and re-read it, evidently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imped View Post
Here are a couple thoughts:

The DF bushings require less breakaway torque than JJ's. In other words, it takes a lot more force to turn the JJ center ball around its center axis than it takes to turn the DF bushing around the same axis. Remember, the JJ center ball moves around inside the two stationary bushing halves. The DF bushing actually rotates inside the barrel. The less breakaway torque required, the less resistance to rotational movement, which is the exact movement needed to allow the suspension to compress and expand while you're driving. That "micromotion" control relates directly to that and isn't wishy washy BS like it looks initially.
Interesting; from my observation of the DuroFlex joint, it seemed as it would have more resistance to movement...so if it has less, that puts a new spin on things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imped View Post
Also, to address some of your points earlier:

Wear--while the 'bearing surface area' is a lot larger for the DF bushing on paper, I don't think it matters in regards to real world wear and durability. We all know how durable the JJ is and I couldn't even wear one single bushing out all while running dry for three years. It's just a non-issue. But, when it comes to contaminant resistance, I think it needs to be noted that I was able to get some sand and grit inside the JJ's....and it was all between the center ball and bushing (bearing surface), not between the barrel and outer bushing bore. The DF bushing is a sealed, one piece unit where all of the contaminants were able to get in on the JJ's. The only place for any junk to go is the bearing surface and I'll do a check of that this week and report back.

As for noise, I never had any noise out of the JJ's, even when dry. I've never had any noise out of the DF bushings and I don't expect it. Another non-issue.

In terms of throttle response, I haven't noticed any real-world difference but on paper, the JJ should win. The DF bushings allow a little deflection and the JJ's don't allow squat. This does not translate to a sloppy feel for the DF bushings--the steering and ride control are still very precise and tight.
I didn't see a lot of slop or play in the DuroFlex joints, so I think it makes sense that there's no negative impact on the handling. I can also see how it's impossible to get any sort of foreign material between the center ball and bushing on the DuroFlex, but I was thinking more about the housing/bushing surface...which is admittedly less of a concern than the interior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imped View Post
The better ride quality comes from the softer material, which absorbs quite a bit more. I not only noticed an improvement over road imperfections but also noticed a decrease in drivetrain noise transmitted through to the frame and then to the cab. When I installed them all in February I still had the bad pinion bearing whine going on....the sound through to the cab was quite reduced and I had two witnesses with me who noticed it without me mentioning anything.....one, a Jeep buddy and another my girlfriend. I think the other factor is the required breakaway torque and, given that, it could also be hypothesized that these will provide a better-than-factory-bushing ride since they don't move at all in that manner. Essentially, the axles are able to move in the up-and-down manner very easily and smoothly, where the stock bushings don't like to move that way and JJ's resist the movement due to the preload on the center ball.
This is the paragraph I was looking for; I'll have to wrap my head around it for a bit before it all sinks in, though. Thank you for wording it so clearly.
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Unread 06-10-2013, 08:57 PM   #4844
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundowner
This is the paragraph I was looking for; I'll have to wrap my head around it for a bit before it all sinks in, though. Thank you for wording it so clearly.
I am so glad you blokes are debating this here, as I am gathering parts to do the same. New upper and lwr with a stretch. Plus around 2-3" lift. I see Sundowner like OME gear, do you think you will stick with them for springs and shocks???
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Unread 06-10-2013, 09:07 PM   #4845
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Originally Posted by TheDoc25 View Post
I see Sundowner like OME gear, do you think you will stick with them for springs and shocks???
Probably not; I like their rear springs, but I'm going to end up with a 3" spring in the front and some type of rebuildable shock at each corner. I'll likely look to Currie for the springs and Fox for the shocks. I like the OME front springs but they're stiffer than I'd prefer, and although their shocks were great at first, I killed the fronts with a single day on the trails.
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