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Why you dont put HID bulbs in stock housings...

36K views 46 replies 18 participants last post by  madrabbitt 
#1 ·
Since this gets brought up OVER AND OVER AND OVER.
Might as well make its own thread for a discussion.

First off, I should mention that I have SAE certifications on gaseous discharge lighting, and headlight design.
So, I do know something on the subject.

Stock halogen housings, especially free form housings found on newer vehicles, are designed around very strict tolerances, in having the focal point directly on the filament of a standard bulb. Retrofitting a HID bulb, even one thats re-based to fit the housing, creates a large amount of glare, because the gas chamber that the arc is created in, is larger in size then the filament, therefore, some of the light is outside the focal point, and is reflected outside the desired beam.

I however, am a LOUSY photoshop artist, so bear with my drawing here:


On the left you have a standard bulb in a reflector housing designed for it.
The light pattern is exactly whats expected, because the focal point is, especially in newer cars with computer designed free form reflectors, designed specifically for where the filiment is located in the standard bulb.
On the right, the HID bulb's gas chamber, between the two electrodes, where the arc takes place, is longer lengthwise, and significantly wider then the regular bulb's filiment, therefore the light is bounced off the reflectors outside of the focal area, causing glare outside the intended beam pattern.

On a older car with a fluted lens, its even worse, because the reflector only focuses the beam to the general direction and pattern, and the flutes spread it out and distribute the light to the beam pattern that you want.
In the case of a hid bulb behind a fluted lens, since the beam is already spread wider then it should be, the flutes make it worse by spreading the light out of focus and out of pattern.
 
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#3 ·
First one that popped into my head would be a ZJ.
Compare the ZJ's formed reflector and fluted lens to a WJ's clear non optic lens and free form reflector.
 
#8 ·
This makes perfect sense. I'm sure you've observed the differences in the jewel reflector for free form housings as seen in the Toyota Sienna and '03model year Maxima with HID. The lower (transposed) half of the HID bulb is covered with an opaque, such as a solid metal, thus eliminating the upward glare emitted from the focal point.

In the WK, the form of the lens is similar in design to the aforementioned improvisation. I would have to argue that a well-researched arc-height would be better suited for say the WK housing versus the WJ. I previously installed HIDs in my '03 WJ's stock housing and the beam was completely ruined. This is very common as once the arc-height was measured, turned out to be about a half inch higher though it was branded and sold as a 9006XS compatible unit.

I've had GREAT success with HID bulbs in my WK, once i found bulbs with the correct "arc-height".
 
#4 ·
Thank you for trying to spread truth.
I'd like to further add that blue-tinted designer bulbs that pretend to be better because they appear whiter are a total waste of money (if you actually want to see where you're going) and that they blind oncoming drivers.

My headlight bulbs of choice are the Phillips Vision Plus and Osram SilverStar (EDot +50 bulb, not to be confused with Sylvania SilverStar poseur bulb).
Phillips also has a +80 bulb available in Europe that a friend is beta-testing right now in an H7; not sure if/when it will come to this country.

I'm the senior admin of a mass-spec test and measurement training lab, btw.
 
#5 ·
You know that the gen 2 silverstars are using dichrotic tint rather then glass paint, and actually come close in lumen output to the osram e-code silverstars, right? We're talking maybe 8-9% lower output overall.
Imagine what woud happen if they drop the tint completely.

I would be totally happy if the osram ones were sold here... but no. I'm running the osram silverstar 9005's in my high beams... I may replace them with HIR bulbs when i do my HID conversion.



And while its not exactly on topic, its probably best to explain WHY tinted bulbs suck.
The tint actually reduces output because it filters out the yellow part of the spectrum... however, the yellow part is brighter then the blue part. Tint makes the bulb APPEAR whiter, and therefore has the appearance of being brighter, but actual lumen output decreases with the tint.
 
#6 ·
They're still selling the gen-1 bulbs at many mega-stores like Wallyworld....
Have you tried the Phillips? My buddy is really liking the new +80 version. The +50 is pretty impressive as it is.
 
#7 ·
I've only had a vehicle with replaceable bulbs for a few months. I went to regular silverstars on both low and high, then ordered the osram 9005's from ebay.
And you're right, my local walmart DOES still have the gen 1... sylvania pulled them so many months ago, but go figure. Its walmart.
 
#9 ·
post pics of the beam pattern then.

Oh, and i'm tempted to slap some halogen bulbs into my retrofit now, and have the ballasts installed and ready, for when i manage to get a new set of D2S/D2R bulbs.

I should just shut up and buy them on ebay, but eh. I'm lazy.
 
#15 ·
madrabbit, have you heard anything about "light force" HIDs? my buddy told me about them and they seem like a pretty good deal for the price, compared to some from piaa or someone.
 
#16 ·
we're talking about the aux lights right?

The US military has recently started using light force branded lights on vehicles. This tells you two things.
1. Some vendor is making a killing because you know they marked them up like crazy.
2. They've got to be pretty decent.

I know these guys who race baja. They've replaced ALL their hella lights with lightforce lights... both halogen and HID.

They're THAT good.

I would love a pair of their smaller ones in HID, but its a tad out of my range.
 
#17 ·
The cutoff is pretty good for a retrofit. Looks like DC did their homework on the reflector design.


Joe. There looks like good cutoff on the outside of the beam with the correct pattern cutoff on the top. There does look like theres glare in the center of the beam though. What brand housings are those?
 
#21 ·
#22 ·
Here are some good examples of the glare.



this is a 05-08 era chevy truck with hids in all three housings.

The low beam wasnt too bad (keep in mind its 4:30 in the afternoon with the sun at our backs) but the fogs were throwing a HUGE amount of glare... it was hurting my eyes in the daytime thru a tinted window... thats how bad it was.



9:30 at night. Car on the left is a ford mustang with hid bulbs in the OEM housings. Car on the right is a newer honda sedan with halogen reflector headlights. And the camera cant show how dazzling the hids are compared to the oem halogens.
 
#23 · (Edited)
I have hid's in the stock housings on my 2002 explorer and have absolutely no glare issues at all. It even passed mass state inspection and the guy new what was in there because he asked. He put the truck against the headlight aiming board to see the aim and pattern and was surprised to see that there good to go. I have put hid's in regular rippled housings with bad effects, but have never had issues with a factory clear headlight lens housings.

Certain housings do respond better to hid's but they still need to be aimed according to light output. No housing or hid bulb is exact. They all need to be aimed after installing hid's.

I put some in my mustang with factory headlights and ended up selling them because of glare issues. It had the rippled type housings like these:



The reason is the inner reflector is not designed to spread the light output efficiently, so the lens has that rippled effect to help spread the light output evenly and efficiently. When you add a bulb that creates a crazy light pattern into this type of housing, it gets even worse. There is no aiming to these that could eliminate all glare, because of the rippled housing. Even though you aim them down, the light still hits the ripples and bounces back to the reflector or gets it angle changed and exits the housing.

I put some in my 02 explorer with factory clear housings and have had "no" negative effect with glare. I even had to aim them up a bit after the install. this is a pic of the factory housing:



I've been driving with these installed for about a year now and have "never" had anyone flash there high beams at or been pulled over because of them. It even passed mass state inspection with them on.

I will try to get some pics tonight of the lights in my X.
 
#24 · (Edited)
...
I put some in my mustang with factory headlights and ended up selling them because of glare issues. It had the rippled type housings like these:



The reason is the inner reflector is not designed to spread the light output efficiently, so the lens has that rippled effect to help spread the light output evenly and efficiently. When you add a bulb that creates a crazy light pattern into this type of housing, it gets even worse. ....
That being said, I wonder how the Cobra version of the above lens (shown below) would perform with an HID bulb? It has the smooth surface with no outer refractor.

 
#25 ·
Bumping this...

Don't forget installing HID bulbs in housings not intended for them is also ILLEGAL in most (if not all) states.

I also highly doubt you'll see a (legit) D.O.T. mark on any ebay/craigslist/chinese HID kit.
 
#26 ·
Actually, its not illegal in that many juristictions. Its sort of a grey area, legally.

And you are correct about the DOT (or sae) markings. If the conversion has them, they're probably fake.
 
#28 ·
Um, no.

If you're just going to say something stupid, why bother posting.

HID bulbs generate LESS heat then halogens, generally.
 
#29 ·
like mad rabbit said ... much less heat than halogen bulbs especially upgraded units like fatboys.

my hid retrofit is doing just fine with nobody flashing me or anything. made a lot of adjustments, including making an extra shroud with a cut up coke can welded to the stock shroud
 
#32 ·
Are you talking about the MSR ones with the completely clear (non fluted lens)

Quadratec has them for like 89.99

I've used the rectangular ones in my company's super duty, with both HIR and HID h4 bulbs.

HIR was nice. HID didnt give me as good of a cutoff on high beam as I was hoping, so I pulled the HID and went back to HIR.
 
#31 ·
anybody use those LED conversion ones in place of HIDs, they sell them on superbrightleds.com, I just cant see how they'd be considered brighter.

And most things you put on your vehicle after you got it, (in California) that weren't stock/oem, are considered aftermarket and thus illegal....but its a very grey area.... i argued my Hella horns in my tuner, and asked the judge if he ever put a locking gas cap on a car...answer Yes. reply, well then your honor, wouldn't that be just as "illegal" as my Hella's? *nods head* Dismissed. (But young man, I don't want to see you in my court again)

The laws are set up to work for the police given the average Joe wont bother fighting them, then there are the few of us (who are enrolled in various police & legal orgs. who know what to say) No...I don't want to be a lawyer....Ive never seen them have any fun, and never ever see any of them owning a jeep!
 
#33 ·
There are NO led HEADLIGHT bulbs. The ones that some places sell in the headlight size, are designed as running lights or city lights. They put out nowhere near as bright as headlights should be, and dont even put out as much light as 35 watt incandescent.

Again, there are NO LED replacement capsules rated for HEADLIGHT use.

Aftermarket LED headlights do exist, and in fact, i'm retrofitting some into a WJ housing. However, they are full LED heads with 10 superflux bulbs and the correct optics.
 
#34 ·
As for the laws. In most states, the laws are vauge, however, the general idea is, any aftermarket part you put on your vehicle must either meet or exceed the OEM requirement, or as a substitute, must meet a current DOT -or- SAE certification.
 
#36 ·
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