[xjben]

I have a 2007 Grand Cherokee, with the 6 Disc in dash CD player and built in satellite receiver. I am replacing the rest of the stereo speakers with upgraded equipment (new speakers, amp, sub), and am wondering what I gain or lose by replacing or not replacing the deck. I like the factory look up front...but if I replace it, will a new one put out better sound? The deck won't be powering anything, all that comes off the amp...so it's just outputting the CD/Radio music to the system.

[mylt1]

factory signals suck from the start. you will get a cleaner sound from an after market deck. crap in= crap out. plus adding in an amp will only make it sound worse. how do you plan on getting the signal from the deck to the amp?

[Steve and Will]

an aftermarket HU will give you a cleaner signal, RCA outputs, remote turn-on for your amp, and more equalizer and tuning option.

[gily25]

More control over sound shaping = better sound quality. A lot of factory head units also have volume restrictors. If you really like the dash shape you can get past all of these by purchasing a JL clean sweep but for the price most people just get a new head unit.

[caradiodoc]

I've been repairing radios for many years and have never heard of a "volume restrictor". Is that like tieing the speaker wires in a knot?

Evey manufacturer has base audio systems that were never meant to be high class entertainment systems. You can't define all oem equipment by these systems any more than I can call all aftermarket stuff crap based on one Walmart 40 dollar special. I haven't had to work on any '07s yet, but the earlier 6-disc changers where built by Chrysler. They are the low end units and simply sound good. The Mitsubishi-built cd / cassette combo radios are extremely high quality and sound fabulous when used in the body they were designed for. The cd radios were built by Alpine and were also tailored to the shape of the vehicle.

There has been a lot of competition among some car manufacturers to build the best sounding audio systems because, let's face it, people buy cars to be entertained, not for reliable transportation between two places.
You'll have to spend a bunch of money to custom tailor a one-size-fits-none aftermarket system to equal the research and development that went into the oem system. You'll have to spend more time and money to make it sound better.

caradiodoc

[SirGCal]

Originally Posted by caradiodoc

<snip> were also tailored to the shape of the vehicle.
<snip>

No they most certainly were not. They used the same OEM radios in every vehicle from the mini-vans to the wranglers to the trucks to even the Viper, etc. They might tailor the speaker setup but the electronics in the radios were all the same for a given version (radio, not vehicle). Nice try.

And what's with the one-size-fits-none thing? They are one-size-fits-almost-everything... I've never found a problem putting a DIN in any vehicle... Ever... And even really odd-balls like the ovals in the late fords, still can look even better with a good aftermarket. And there ARE (quite a few actually) vehicles with pure DIN sizing direct from the OEM so your little tag-line is false regardless. My older fox-body ford (most all fords of that era) was one infact that comes to mind. Ferrari uses DIN (did a 360 Spider not long ago myself), So does (did) Lamborghini in some models if memory serves. Plus with the influx of DDIN OEM units using GPS and the soaring availability of those sizes in OEM, it's getting even more common. I've done professional radio installs for over a quarter of a century and I've found extremely few vehicles where the installs do not drop right in or look nice afterward. There are always exceptions but your tag-line is simply untrue.

You do NOT have to spend a ton of money to best most any OEM setup out there in sound quality and power, but you do have to spend some. It also depends on the unit. If you're going to try to compete with the Mach systems in the Mustangs for example, you'll have to pony up more than you would in a (something else) simply because that system does have more design and power built into it. You'll find more well-design OEM systems though in the luxury lineup vs anything else.

Anyhow, back to the OP. Yes, you can keep your OEM radio and output it to a new amp. It will not necessarily sound bad either as the bulk of the public would tell you, however most aftermarket units will have far more sound shaping and tuning controls allowing for (to them) much greater sound potential.

Still, the clarity is only as good as the weakest link and OEMs are known for being a bit on the noisy side. Plus using the speaker outputs instead of a line-level (RCA) output increases the noise factor some. Still, most people won't mind or notice.

The stock head units do have the REMOTE turn on output also. Newer units even have a dedicated one, but all units have something that will work like the older power antenna signal wire. If they have nothing else, that's almost always hot whenever the radio is on which is what the remote turn on output itself does. If they have both, be sure to use the right one as then the power antenna wire will only be hot during AM/FM.

[caradiodoc]

"No they most certainly were not. They used the same OEM radios in every vehicle from the mini-vans to the wranglers to the trucks to even the Viper, etc. They might tailor the speaker setup but the electronics in the radios were all the same for a given version (radio, not vehicle). Nice try."

Suweeeet. You just made my point. GM has dozens of different models every year that look the same. The tiny differences are in the output circuitry for the various model cars and trucks. Good luck finding the exact one you need in a salvage yard or on eBay. Ford lists the application right on the radio's model number sticker. Chrysler makes life easy by using only two or three similar radio models so interchange is easy. Like you and I said, the tone conditioning is in the speaker setup. How common sense can you get and still have a "custom design setup"?

The manufacturers spend a lot of time developing and fine tuning their audio systems. The environment they live in is drastically different than the mild conditions where you'll find home equipment, yet people expect their cars to be entertainment systems on wheels. The important task of driving in a safe manner gets lost when we fiddle with any radio. Microscopic buttons that perform three different functions adds to the distraction, but my beef is not with people who want to change their system. I roll my eyes at the people who think any radio, any amp, and any set of speakers will sound better than any oem setup. Aftermarket and oem both have high-end stuff that sounds great and low end stuff that works fine, and very often sounds real good, but has fewer features. Most people replace the low end oem for high end aftermarket, (no one in their right mind would do otherwise), then whine about how oem stuff sucks.

But you don't run to the store and ask for "a '97 Jeep system". Hence, my comment about "one-size-fits-none" because they don’t just bolt I and plug in. You might call it "a one-size-fits-any". Every aftermarket system is a custom install. I have the only model aftermarket radio that is an exact mount / exact plug-in / exact fit without any modifications or adjustments. It is an AM / FM with a bonus feature, . . . a digital clock! You have to pick out a radio from a display that is designed to make their stuff sound good in a quiet padded room, you pick out the speakers that have who knows what kind of circuitry leading up to them, from a display that aims them right for your ears. One of the reasons I sell so many oem radios at my local old car show swap meet is I have the same setup in the back of my enclosed trailer. Switch between 16 oem radios and listen to four 8-dollar Nippon 6" speakers mounted on a display board and watch how many people are attracted to them. Put those same radios in a vehicle with a limited number of potential speaker locations which are always a compromise, add hard windshields and road noise and it can't possibly sound as good as the display models, but people remember the nice sound in the display and convince themselves it's a good system. Put most high-end oem radios in a Best Buy display and they will compete with a lot of aftermarket stuff. The same is true of my work bench. The aftermarket radios I've repaired don't sound any different than the GM, Ford, or Chrysler radios. To me, they all reproduce the same frequencies. What's funny is when the owner doesn't know which unit is playing on my test bench. It's usually a Chrysler radio because those are my specialty, but he is quite pleased when he thinks it's his aftermarket radio. To me, they all sound the same.

The same is true of new tvs. They will never look better than when in the store display. The cheap model never looks as good as the expensive one when they're side-by-side, but haul the cheap one home and plant it next to a good antenna and it will look just fine. Could I have spent more than the $168.00 on my Walmart special? Absolutely. Would it look any better than what I have now? I'll never know. Do I care? Of course not. It has a great picture so why do I need something better?

One thing I must clarify about my comment, "The cd radios were built by Alpine and were also tailored to the shape of the vehicle." You are partially correct that the radio is not tailored to the vehicle. I should have said the SYSTEM is tailored, not the radio. There were two distinctly different radios from the late '80s through the '90s. The Infinity system radios put out much less bass than the standard radios. They all run speakers directly, unlike some older confusing GM and Ford systems that required an external amp, but the Infinity systems used remote amps strictly for tone conditioning for the shape of the vehicle. This is where you are right, they use the same radio in all their cars and minivans, but you are wrong, the systems ARE tailored to the application. Some vehicles, Jeeps and Dakotas for example, use a remote-mounted amplifier. Cars and minivans have small amplifiers mounted to each speaker. They do not change power or volume; they only change tone response and add the bass that is reduced in the radio. There are charts in the radio service manuals that spell out different component values in the output circuitry between the Infinity vs. standard radios. At most you will find a dozen different part values. Except for that output circuit, the rest of the radios are the same. So Chrysler has two distinctly different models that look the same, Ford and GM have dozens.

My '88 Grand Caravan came with the Infinity system. We could not believe the magnificent sound from the original cassette player and four speakers. I use this van now as my daily driver and to test run repaired radios. Because of the amplified speakers, standard radios have too much bass. They don’t sound distorted, just crappy. Anyone buying a used standard radio for their car with Infinity speakers will not be happy unless they turn the bass way down. Likewise, someone who thinks they’re upgrading by putting the Infinity model into their car with standard speakers will not be impressed by the tinny sound. Yet, those same unknowledgeable consumers will spend a pile of time and money putting together an aftermarket system that obviously will sound better. ANYTHING would sound better than mismatched oem stuff.

Your aftermarket radios have only one version of each model so if you mistakenly think oem systems are not tailored for specific vehicles, you surely can’t believe aftermarket radios are. You don't ask for "a Sony XXX for a '97 Jeep". You buy a Sony XXX and take what they give you as far as tone response is concerned. It's up to you to find the speakers most pleasing to you, and store displays do a dandy job of making expensive speakers sound great. They don't always sound that nice below your feet stuffed in a metal door. In my opinion, the best way to find a pleasing aftermarket system is to find a system you like in someone else’s car similar to yours, then buy the same stuff. And that “stuff” won’t always be the most expensive. As proof, look at these forums and the people who post which components they installed. There are hundreds of different parts, combinations, and car models. They’re all different, and the owners are all happy. They can’t all be right, . . . or wrong.

Caradiodoc


“If it bothers you that you can’t hear the cymbals or the violin, perhaps you should be paying more attention to your driving”. (I prefer talk radio!)

[SirGCal]

Originally Posted by caradiodoc

Suweeeet. You just made my point. GM has dozens of different models every year that look the same. The tiny differences are in the output circuitry for the various model cars and trucks. Good luck finding the exact one you need in a salvage yard or on eBay. Ford lists the application right on the radio's model number sticker. Chrysler makes life easy by using only two or three similar radio models so interchange is easy. Like you and I said, the tone conditioning is in the speaker setup. How common sense can you get and still have a "custom design setup"?

Uhhhh... What? You just agreed with me.. how is that proving your point... You're either not reading what I'm writing or not understanding or.. Heck I don't have a clue. You said the radios were tailored to the vehicle, now you're arguing it's the speakers... You're two-siding your own comments to the discussion.

Originally Posted by caradiodoc

The manufacturers spend a lot of time developing and fine tuning their audio systems. The environment they live in is drastically different than the mild conditions where you'll find home equipment, yet people expect their cars to be entertainment systems on wheels. The important task of driving in a safe manner gets lost when we fiddle with any radio. Microscopic buttons that perform three different functions adds to the distraction, but my beef is not with people who want to change their system. I roll my eyes at the people who think any radio, anyr amp, and any set of speakes will sound better than any oem setup. Aftermarket and oem both have high-end stuff that sounds great and low end stuff that works fine, and very often sounds real good, but has fewer features. Most people replace the low end oem for high end aftermarket, (no one in their right mind would do otherwise), then whine about how oem stuff sucks.

I disagree almost completely. The manufacturers all too often don't know squat about sound when they design a car or these 'tweeters on the mirrors, a-pillars, dashes, high-on-the-doors, etc.' would never exist. One good example of something done in a LOT of modern cars of all types that is against the standard for high quality SQ. Even my wife's budget line Subaru has tweeters atop the doors which just absolutely drive me nuts. I hate em and am forced to force it to the rear which is again against SQ ideals.

At the same time, I agree with you that an OEM system can sound very good and can be upgraded still. But... The car makers are just out to sell cars. They don't (well, they rarely) hire a proper audio specialist to setup the systems. I've heard an extremely few OEM systems which I would consider of high quality in terms of great SQ. Tons of them out there are nice, but great.. ehh... Again, depends if you have the ear to hear it at all.

Originally Posted by caradiodoc

But you don't run to the store and ask for "a '97 Jeep system". Hence, my comment about "one-size-fits-none" because they don’t just bolt I and plug in. You might call it "a one-size-fits-any". Every aftermarket system is a custom install.

That is not true. In my shop this happened quite a lot actually. you give them everything they need to basically bolt and plug it right in. Simple, easy, and very common. Plugging in an adapter harness and sliding in a new head unit into the new bezel is not a custom install. Nore is replacing the speakers with something different, even if they are a slightly different size. Nore is dropping in a generic box and sub really though of these, that would be the closest...

A custom install would be redesigning the dash to take a DDIN unit when it only held a DIN before. Moving speakers to a different location. Building a custom to-fit box for a specific job. That's custom installing. Designing the system to perform BETTER in what ever task you have.

Originally Posted by caradiodoc

You have to pick out a radio from a display that is designed to make their stuff sound good in a quiet padded room, you pick out the speakers that have who knows what kind of circuitry leading up to them, from a display that aims them right for your ears. One of the reasons I sell so many oem radios at my local old car show swap meet is I have the same setup in the back of my enclosed trailer. Switch between 16 oem radios and listen to four 8-dollar Nippon 6" speakers mounted on a display board and watch how many people are attracted to them. Put those same radios in a vehicle with a limited number of potential speaker locations which are always a compromise, add hard windshields and road noise and it can't possibly sound as good as the display models, but people remember the nice sound in the display and convince themselves it's a good system. Put most high-end oem radios in a Best Buy display and they will compete with a lot of aftermarket stuff. The same is true of my work bench. The aftermarket radios I've repaired don't sound any different than the GM, Ford, or Chrysler radios. To me, they all reproduce the same frequencies. What's funny is when the owner doesn't know which unit is playing on my test bench. It's usually a Chrysler radio because those are my specialty, but he is quite pleased when he thinks it's his aftermarket radio. To me, they all sound the same.

Ahh, so you just don't have the ear to hear the difference anyhow. That explains a lot about your stance. If you did, they wouldn't all sound the same. Not saying your favorite might not be the king of the heap in your case, but they wouldn't all sound the same. I've rarely heard two radios that sound exactly the same, even through the same equipment in the same environment.

But the rest is simple training. You listen for the differences in the sound and make sure the testing is as even as possible. Then more venues and repeat, not all at one store. You're looking for subtle tonal differences and qualities that you like or dislike. Also without EQ or amplification if possible. You want to hear the speaker in it's natural state as close as possible. But if you don't have the ear, it's a moot point.

Originally Posted by caradiodoc

The same is true of new tvs. They will never look better than when in the store display.

Uhhh.. WHAT?!? I've not seen an in-store display for TVs that looks worth a crap unless it's a specialty store with dedicated receivers for each unit. The loss in their signal sharing system is never good. The best TVs look iffy at best.

I do agree they will ALL look better when you get them home but in the store, they'll usually never look that BAD until they fail somehow. Although it is a good place to do side by side comparisons knowing the signal to them is crap already anyhow, but then again, they still can setup those signals to favor the better, more expensive sets.

The best stores will let you setup units you're interested in on a deticated signal (usually a good one) just for that purpose. Finding those stores though can be a bit of a chore.

Originally Posted by caradiodoc

Your aftermarket radios have only one version of each model so if you mistakenly think oem systems are not tailored for specific vehicles, you surely can’t believe aftermarket radios are. You don't ask for "a Sony XXX for a '97 Jeep". You buy a Sony XXX and take what they give you as far as tone response is concerned.

Well, that's why I don't buy Sony but... The aftermarket units make up for this with drastically more specific tonal adjustments. Higher-end units even tweak out their delay features and phase corrections to get everything in phase, impacting the listening position at the same time.

Originally Posted by caradiodoc

It's up to you to find the speakers most pleasing to you, and store displays do a dandy job of making expensive speakers sound great. They don't always sound that nice below your feet stuffed in a metal door. In my opinion, the best way to find a pleasing aftermarket system is to find a system you like in someone else’s car similar to yours, then buy the same stuff. And that “stuff” won’t always be the most expensive. As proof, look at these forums and the people who post which components they installed. There are hundreds of different parts, combinations, and car models. They’re all different, and the owners are all happy. They can’t all be right, . . . or wrong.

Sure they can. For the same reason all of those source units sound exactly the same to you and other people can hear subtle differences between them. Every person hears differently. That's why no SQ vehicle ever wins them all. You can take the top three SQ vehicles in a given class in the entire world, put them together in every event over the year. Odds are they'll all come out with roughly an equal number of first place finishes. This is because the judges all also have slightly different ears and it's their ears in that case that matter the most in that situation.

Same reason some people like those shrill/bright speakers by brand X and some people think my favorite Y brand that bring tears of joy to my ears and eyes sound rather bland and unimpressive. Everyone hears differently. Unfortunately, the average Joe can't really tell the difference. Although the number is climbing recently with the onset of more modern hearing protection and regulations. Those who do have the ear, are able to keep it and realize it more often today then yesterday. Further, some people just don't know how to hear (what to listen for) so they might have the ear but don't notice the difference but for some reason may or may not like X over Y or Z. That's where training can be brought in to teach those subtle differences and what to listen for. Sometimes I show people something like that and they are alike 'Holy cow!. I've listened to this a thousand times and never noticed that before.' Or they are doing a speaker test and they realize X sounds sharp to them, or actually hurts. They are realizing they do have some ear at least. It's fun to watch someone discover this actually. One of my favorite things. Like watching a kid's face light up at the tree Christmas morning. True amazement and excitement. (That's also how it's a bit easy to find the fakers too that for some reason feel it's bad, when it's not, to not be able to tell the difference. Personally, I'd call it a blessing if I was happy with just any good quality setup. That's just me...)

[caradiodoc]

We live in different worlds. You are entering contests and looking for the perfect sound that's most pleasing to you. MY customers are looking for a radio that sounds decent at best. You spend a lot of time listening to your system in a parking lot. When my van is parked, I'm somewhere else. When I want the best sound possible to keep me entertained, I'm in the house. I'm happy with a "utility" radio that plays tunes. I'm also happy with a 22 year old rusty tub that probably doesn't ride as nicely as a new minivan. And, I have the luxury of not having to worry about sound quality with the oem stuff I repair. If it works when I get done, it will sound like it did before and the owner will be happy. You have a pile of variables to play with before your customer decides he's satisfied.

We also have different definitions of a custom install, hence the unintentional disagreement. To me, any radio that requires the addition of a mounting kit is "custom". If it can be taken out of a Ford and made to fit in a Chrysler, it's custom. Anything other than a factory radio is custom because it was not designed for that one specific car model. Your idea of custom requires a lot more thought and modification. Perhaps these installations are common for you but they have to be more involved than just popping in another factory radio.

I was too lazy to explain what I meant about comparing new tvs or radios in a store display. The conspiracy theorists will tell you the big guys will purposely fiddle with the low-cost tvs to make the high-cost ones look better by comparison. I don't know if that's true or not, but one observation we made years ago in the tv shop I worked in, . . . brand new tvs always looked good when we unpacked them. It wasn't until they were sitting side-by-side that we could see a difference. If a customer special ordered a certain model, and we test-ran it in the shop, it was very possible to look crappy next to a different brand or model. The customer would not be happy if they saw the comparison, sooooooooo, we just made sure no other tvs were playing when he came to pick it up. It still looked better than his old tv. I still have my first new tv, a '76 model Quasar. It has never needed a single repair, and had a fantastic picture until the government took away my signal. It might look terrible compared to a new tv, but I would never know if they aren't sitting next to each other. The same is true about radios. You pointed out how nice it is to see your customer's face light up when they hear something better. But if they never had the better one to compare to, many of those people would be satisfied with the model that doesn't sound quite so good. Once that not-so-good tv is standing alone in the customer's house, he has nothing to compare to and is relatively easy to please. Joe Average doesn't run around comparing other people's cars to see which one has a miniscule difference in sound, and if he did, he would likely need two or more cars sitting near each other just like having multiple radios next to each other in a display so he can switch instantly betwen them. More power to the purists who enjoy perfect sound quality, but again, that's not my world.

That was another sore point. Back in the day when we could make a living fixing tvs in the house, we sometimes had to haul them into the shop for diagnosis and repair. We had to be sure that no matter what kind of pile they wanted repaired, our loaner tv had better look worse, and for sure would not be a new one. There was no way we were getting out of the house if their repaired tv looked worse than our loaner. That logic doesn't work with cars. Some dealers will give their good customers program cars for loaners. They have less than 15,000 miles but are like new. The hope is the customer will prefer to trade for that newer car. That's where the profit is. With tvs in the '70s and '80s, the profit was in repairing the old hulk. There were only a few dollars profit in selling a new tv if you had to compete with Kmart and Sears.

I know what you're saying about people hearing differently and having different preferences, but logically, if two radios have the same frequency response, should they not reproduce the same sound from the same source? And if they feed the same speakers, why wouldn't they sound identical? Now, we both know there's more to the story than that, and they won't really have the same response, but have you ever heard of someone mounting an oem radio in a display next to a bunch of aftermarket radios? I'll admit, I don't have any aftermarket units in my trailer display, but mounted to that board, with cheapy speakers and no circuitry in between, those oem radios sound amazing. But remember, there's no road noise or other irritations going on. My observation is that those wonderful-sounding radios don't sound that good in the car even with the better speakers. Logic would dictate the car is the variable, not the radio. If the car makes the oem radio sound worse than when it's in the display, why would anyone expect an aftermarket radio to sound better in the car than in the display?

Another observation is that it seems younger people enjoy much more bass. That included me many years ago before we had the rude ground pounders we see today. The thump thump is not natural but is easy for any manufacturer to accomplish, and is easy for anyone to hear. Today I prefer to hear violins and cymbals in the background. That is harder to design into a radio when trying to maintain the low end response. I'm lucky that I can still hear up to 18khz but if a radio only went to 10khz, I'd never know the difference. I wouldn't hear it anyways when I'm rattling down the road, so I'll save my purist listening for in the house, which, by the way, sounds better than when I heard it in the warehouse store. I bought it 32 years ago because it had a 5-band EQ, . . . and pretty lights!

caradiodoc

[SirGCal]

Originally Posted by caradiodoc

We live in different worlds. You are entering contests and looking for the perfect sound that's most pleasing to you. MY customers are looking for a radio that sounds decent at best. You spend a lot of time listening to your system in a parking lot. When my van is parked, I'm somewhere else. When I want the best sound possible to keep me entertained, I'm in the house. I'm happy with a "utility" radio that plays tunes. I'm also happy with a 22 year old rusty tub that probably doesn't ride as nicely as a new minivan. And, I have the luxury of not having to worry about sound quality with the oem stuff I repair. If it works when I get done, it will sound like it did before and the owner will be happy. You have a pile of variables to play with before your customer decides he's satisfied.

I mean no disrespect but... Not true; yes I do and have had lots of customers who compete. But I have had countless times more that do not and are even more picky. I also rarely ever listen to a vehicle sitting still. I enjoy my tunes on the road or on the trail. Vehicles were meant to be driven (heh... reminds me when I got busted thrashing my uncles Mach1 that he NEVER drove. Show car or not, letting them sit there is a waste and makes me cry). My issue (and that of many customers of SQ installers) thought is, if it doesn't sound pleasant and clear to me, it actually causes me physical pain. I only listen to talk radio in the wife's car cause I can't stand it's sound. Upsets her though cause I listen to music all the time in my Jeep (well, when I could drive it, been over a year though... talk about depressing).

And ya, sure I like rock and roll, jazz, country, etc. but my favorite listening is classical or orchestral like Tchaikovsky, Mozart, Verdi, Giuseppe, Vivaldi, Rossini, Handel, Beethoven and Bach to name a few from my collection. More on this later.

Originally Posted by caradiodoc

We also have different definitions of a custom install, hence the unintentional disagreement. To me, any radio that requires the addition of a mounting kit is "custom". If it can be taken out of a Ford and made to fit in a Chrysler, it's custom. Anything other than a factory radio is custom because it was not designed for that one specific car model. Your idea of custom requires a lot more thought and modification. Perhaps these installations are common for you but they have to be more involved than just popping in another factory radio.

Still I don't get it. I can take any model radio out of any car (accept perhaps a newer Rovers with their fiber system) and put it in any other car. An OEM Ford radio into a Chrysler, cake. Even those GMs with their integration circuitry can be bypassed quite easily. AND, not all cars require a mounting kit. YJ is a good example. You can use one but you don't need one. So I guess; for you doing anything after receiving the vehicle new from the dealership counts as custom. Pretty easy to please I guess.

Originally Posted by caradiodoc

<snip> If a customer special ordered a certain model, and we test-ran it in the shop, it was very possible to look crappy next to a different brand or model. The customer would not be happy if they saw the comparison, sooooooooo, we just made sure no other tvs were playing when he came to pick it up. It still looked better than his old tv.

So you were not honest business people... It's starting to make more sense now. I would never try to dupe my customers like that when I had my store. That's really poor taste. I've done complete installs and had a customer decide they wanted a different speaker instead and swapped it all out for only the additional labor charge and tiny (5% at the time) restocking fee. We can re-sell the speakers as demo units or even return them to the manufacturer so no loss to us. Actually, a lot of 'custom' shops now have like a 30-90 day no questions asked return/exchange policy now even. If you don't like it, you can get your money back or trade it in for a different item (save custom boxes obviously, this is usually for the hardware only). They in-turn resell them as open box or some other discounted item.

Originally Posted by caradiodoc

I still have my first new tv, a '76 model Quasar. It has never needed a single repair, and had a fantastic picture until the government took away my signal. It might look terrible compared to a new tv, but I would never know if they aren't sitting next to each other.

Wow, I'm very near legally blind without my glasses and even I can tell the subtle differences in picture, smoothness, quality, color, etc. and I don't need to be sitting right next to the units being compared (though it does speed up the process). I can quite easily tell the difference from my older tube TVs to my newer tube HDTVs to newer plasma's and LCDs without them even being in the same building. Actually, visual memory comparisons are a bit more common to the average Joe than audible ones.

Originally Posted by caradiodoc

The same is true about radios. You pointed out how nice it is to see your customer's face light up when they hear something better. But if they never had the better one to compare to, many of those people would be satisfied with the model that doesn't sound quite so good.

Nah, that one is simply untrue all together. Most of my customers were even pickier than I and could easily tell the difference in stuff even I couldn't hear. I've even done some blind tests on a few to see if they could catch on. They can. It's the difference of going "That's nice" when listening to it or having a tear form on the cheek due to the simple listening pleasure and being unable to speak for fear of interrupting the euphoria.

Originally Posted by caradiodoc

Joe Average doesn't run around comparing other people's cars to see which one has a miniscule difference in sound, and if he did, he would likely need two or more cars sitting near each other just like having multiple radios next to each other in a display so he can switch instantly between them.

He should compare, but doesn't have to be in a vehicle. Even the average Joe has unique hearing and may not enjoy speaker X. Simple listening in a few different stores will tell him that. It's not a vehicle but he will still gain the tonal differences. If it's bright in the store, it's only going to be brighter and harsher in the hard car. You don't have to have audiophilic hearing to not enjoy a product. Someone who doesn't shop a bit before a purchase is simply a fool.

Originally Posted by caradiodoc

That was another sore point. Back in the day <snip> the profit was in repairing the old hulk. There were only a few dollars profit in selling a new tv if you had to compete with Kmart and Sears.

Again, very poor business practices. You were like the car manufacturers today. It's possible to easily and not too expensively build a vehicle capable of 1M miles without problems but they won't do it. They want you to bring it in for repairs and their very overpriced 'expected' service. You pay for a car a few times over in the end... Plus it eventually just gets cheaper to buy a new one.

Originally Posted by caradiodoc

I know what you're saying about people hearing differently and having different preferences, but logically, if two radios have the same frequency response, should they not reproduce the same sound from the same source? And if they feed the same speakers, why wouldn't they sound identical?

As you said, there's more to the story, the frequency response though has little to do with it alone, that's only the noise free (ish) range of reproduction. It is the response curve which is the actual reproduction quality. And I've rarely heard two that sound identical in that respect.

Originally Posted by caradiodoc

<snip> My observation is that those wonderful-sounding radios don't sound that good in the car even with the better speakers. Logic would dictate the car is the variable, not the radio. If the car makes the oem radio sound worse than when it's in the display, why would anyone expect an aftermarket radio to sound better in the car than in the display?

Because the aftermarket radios often can compensate for those reasons that the sounds change in the different environment. Heck, now you can even get some 'adjustmemt' systems that use a mic to automatically tune for your setup and your vehicle's specifics. You don't even have to understand the systems and how to adjust them to fully utilize them anymore in the better units.

Originally Posted by caradiodoc

Another observation is that it seems younger people enjoy much more bass. That included me many years ago before we had the rude ground pounders we see today.

Younger people just don't know how to listen yet. Some do but... To the untrained, louder and more pressure sound better whether they have the ear or not.

Originally Posted by caradiodoc

I'm lucky that I can still hear up to 18khz but if a radio only went to 10khz, I'd never know the difference. I wouldn't hear it anyways when I'm rattling down the road, so I'll save my purist listening for in the house, which, by the way, sounds better than when I heard it in the warehouse store. I bought it 32 years ago because it had a 5-band EQ, . . . and pretty lights!

Even my extremely noisy Jeep doesn't 'Rattle' down the road. My wife's car is almost soundproof as well (now if she'd only let me put a halfway decent sound system in it...)

Myself, I can hear clean down to 18Hz and up off the top of the Dr's measuring equipment so I don't really know my upper limit. I've tried my own tests but I can't get speakers that go high enough either. I can hear sounds that most people don't. The sound of a tube TV being on actually to me is very annoying. Doesn't even have to have any speakers, the tubes itself make noise. You might be familiar with that being a repairman at least. I've never heard a silent tube TV. Even the blinking LED on the VCR makes noise. Water running through pipes in the house might as well be a machine gun. Gas flowing through the pipes to the furnace (not to mention the scream of the furnace itself where the gas escapes)... Just a few examples.

Joe Average can hear from 20-20kHz. The majority of people have a high-frequency falloff related to abuse and age. This is becoming a bit less common with today's safety practices and hearing protection. But if you can hear to 18k, and someone took off the 10k+ frequencies, you'd know it in a split second. Or you are truly near deaf and there's no help for ya. But if that's the case, you shouldn't be trying to recommend things to people one way or the other... I suspect that's not the case and you just never actually heard what's over 10k alone and it's harmonic effect on the music and what it would sound like without it. I can make an easy example if you like.

[SirGCal]

When you say things that are simply untrue and make incorrect assumptions, yes... I will reply. When you brag about messing with your customers, I'll also post. IMHO, turning off units when people walk in to pick up theirs is disrespectful. If they expect it to be just as good as a bran new modern unit, they're not very bright. I think the same things of audio shops that 'shadow-amp' their expensive speakers so you never know they are amped and can't do a proper comparison. Wow, look how good these X brand speakers are over the Y brand... When in reality, the user may very well have been HAPPIER with Y brand.

And no, if you haven't noticed, I don't tout having to get the best. I've done installs with what is considered the worst equipment in the world. It's all up to what the owner wants and likes. Doesn't matter if it's a Yugo or a Ferrari. If it's what they want and like, what else matters...

There's millions of people, even here who do not agree with me. That's just fine which is why I always so strongly recommend shopping around. But when you're going to sit here and say no aftermarket unit can be as good as an OEM, you're just plain wrong. There are millions of possible opinions on various things. And few possible facts on others...

Name-calling or any rude comments as such won't win you any awards either. If I wasn't tolerant and non-judgmental, well... I'm simply responding to comments you made. I'm not arguing, screaming, name-calling or anything of that nature. If you think so I suggest you read again without adding your own attitude to the mix.