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post #4171 of 6769 Old 06-07-2012, 09:14 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billzcat1 View Post
I wouldn't say sportier. I would say more confident, more direct. The nature of the recirculating box steering arrangement doesn't lend itself to sportiness. I was actually surprised by the change from the JKS TR though. I wasn't expecting a notable difference from just doing the tie rod. It makes you realize how much flex there is in the OEM thin-tube tie rod. The new TREs will probably help more with the wobble than anything else.

Regarding steering stabilizers: I was feeling way too much steering wobble, and bumps were too harsh in the wheel. Hit a bump, have to correct the steering. All the TREs tested out ok by hand and my track bar has maybe 10k on it. Put the Moog STB on it, now it just rolls over bumps like a steamroller. Like the Jeep is flattening out the world. Made a huge difference over the OEM SS.
Good good, that is what I wanted to hear. I want to get rid of that wobble and do exactly like what you said and just be over to roll over anything with confidence and not have to worry about the suspension going everywhere. We shall see how it goes.

I am still running my stock track bar. I may need to look at putting the JKS on if the front doesn't settle some. I do have that RC-X SS and I don't know how great that is. Because we all know how excelled Rough Country is (blatant sarcasm, just in case). I may invest in the Moog STB if I feel the need for it. I have heard good things about it and its pretty beefy too.


~ 04 WJ Overland 4.7 HO | Graphite Metallic | Quadra-Drive | Vari-Locks | Bilstein 4600ís | ADDCO Sway Bar | Powerstick Exhaust | RB1 | SuperChips Tuned | Much More to Come ~

~ 04 WJ Laredo 4.0 | Selec-Trac | MBP | OME HD 3" Lift | JKS TB | IRO Front LCA's and UCA's| Bilstein 5100's | Silent Armor 245/70/17's | Custom Front D.S. | Stillen Rotors/Pads | Tow Package w/ 3.73's | Moog HD Steering | Kenwood eXcelon HU | Alpine Speakers, Amps, and Subs | Bilstein SS | Auxiliary Transmission Cooler | Rock Lights | Light Bars | Lots of Cool Stuff ~

~ 05 Rubicon Unlimited 4.0 | 6-Speed | Dana 44's | Air Lockers | 4.11 Gears | Rock-Trac 241OR T-Case with 4:1 4-Low | OME HD Springs | Bilstein 5100ís | 245/75/16 Kevlar MT/R's on Moabs | Hansen Offroad Steel F/R Bumpers | Warn 9000xi Winch | Edge Performance Chip | Custom CAI | Hella Off-road Lights | Cobra 29 CB | Flash Lights | Recovery Gear | Fire Extinguisher ~

~ Snobrdrkid07's ~ Overland Build Thread ~ Blue WJ "Build" Thread ~ Jeep Videos ~ Fuelly ~WJ 4.0 Trans Aux Cooler Info ~



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post #4172 of 6769 Old 06-07-2012, 09:16 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZB_WJ View Post
I just spent 113 hours reading your build. Lol jk
Hahahaha, It would probably take forever to actually go through the entire thing and read all our chat and the progress of my Jeep. The first page has a decent Table of Contents with links if you have not already seen it.

~ 04 WJ Overland 4.7 HO | Graphite Metallic | Quadra-Drive | Vari-Locks | Bilstein 4600ís | ADDCO Sway Bar | Powerstick Exhaust | RB1 | SuperChips Tuned | Much More to Come ~

~ 04 WJ Laredo 4.0 | Selec-Trac | MBP | OME HD 3" Lift | JKS TB | IRO Front LCA's and UCA's| Bilstein 5100's | Silent Armor 245/70/17's | Custom Front D.S. | Stillen Rotors/Pads | Tow Package w/ 3.73's | Moog HD Steering | Kenwood eXcelon HU | Alpine Speakers, Amps, and Subs | Bilstein SS | Auxiliary Transmission Cooler | Rock Lights | Light Bars | Lots of Cool Stuff ~

~ 05 Rubicon Unlimited 4.0 | 6-Speed | Dana 44's | Air Lockers | 4.11 Gears | Rock-Trac 241OR T-Case with 4:1 4-Low | OME HD Springs | Bilstein 5100ís | 245/75/16 Kevlar MT/R's on Moabs | Hansen Offroad Steel F/R Bumpers | Warn 9000xi Winch | Edge Performance Chip | Custom CAI | Hella Off-road Lights | Cobra 29 CB | Flash Lights | Recovery Gear | Fire Extinguisher ~

~ Snobrdrkid07's ~ Overland Build Thread ~ Blue WJ "Build" Thread ~ Jeep Videos ~ Fuelly ~WJ 4.0 Trans Aux Cooler Info ~



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post #4173 of 6769 Old 06-07-2012, 10:49 PM
compcrasher86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billzcat1 View Post
False. On our Jeeps, a steering stabilizer is necessary to prevent death wobble. The track bar/steering geometry can easily develop a resonant motion side-to-side merely on the bushing compliance and suspension travel. Voila, death wobble. This is specific to vehicles with a solid axle, coil springs, and recirculating steering arrangement. The steering stabilizer damps those vibrations and impacts to prevent the resonance from forming. Even stock JKs experience death wobble from undersized components.

Now on an IFS car with rack & pinion, a steering damper is unnecessary. A great many cars are shipped without them, although the driving experience is certainly more pleasant with it installed.

I also agree, heavier (stiffer) steering components give better feedback and the increase in unsprung weight can make a palpable difference in ride. I certainly felt a difference installing the JKS tie rod, even with original TREs.
reeeheeeeheeeealllllllly, I'll have to chew my roommate out on that one I was very hesitant about taking my SS off and I believed him because he generally knows what he's talking about. I trust your logic more though and it makes sense. I'll have to double check but I've never seen a SS on my buddy's WK. He doesnt get DW but his steering has been quite loose lately but thats a whole different story. Upgrading to the moog components over stock really made a great difference. I drove a stock WJ the other night and the steering felt sloppy in comparison to mine... I'm pretty happy with the investment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snobrdrkid07 View Post
I did not know that it was 100% necessary but that does make sense. Even stock height Jeeps can still get DW.

So what you mean by stiffer is that it gives a more responsive and sportier type steering? Will this new stuff help get rid of that slight wobble that I have on the big bumps?
Wobble... yes.. sportier, not really. Here are some tests to really feel the differences. Go hit some bridge expansion joints on the highway... you'll feel some nice stiff feedback in the wheels. Then on an empty abandoned safe road twitch the wheel left and right firmly (think autocross) but dont do anything near your Jeep's limits. Notice the response of the steering wheel as you change directions... its much more responsive. When I think sporty steering I think of a very tight, not too much assist (I think the Jeep steering (and mine is the earlier less assisted WJ steering) has too much assist) and no deadplay. When I hit a turn its not like toyota/lexus steering where I feel nothing in the wheel. I like a nice tug against what I'm doing. By the way you've heard it before I abhor newer Lexus/Toyota steering its completely numb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by billzcat1 View Post
I wouldn't say sportier. I would say more confident, more direct. The nature of the recirculating box steering arrangement doesn't lend itself to sportiness. I was actually surprised by the change from the JKS TR though. I wasn't expecting a notable difference from just doing the tie rod. It makes you realize how much flex there is in the OEM thin-tube tie rod. The new TREs will probably help more with the wobble than anything else.

Regarding steering stabilizers: I was feeling way too much steering wobble, and bumps were too harsh in the wheel. Hit a bump, have to correct the steering. All the TREs tested out ok by hand and my track bar has maybe 10k on it. Put the Moog STB on it, now it just rolls over bumps like a steamroller. Like the Jeep is flattening out the world. Made a huge difference over the OEM SS.
Exactly... I couldnt say it any better way... there is way too much flex in the OEM sleeve. Seeing as Michael got the Moog adjusting sleeves he should have fixed that (the moog components are quite beefy and weigh at least 3x what the stock components do). I as well am running the moog STB and it does a great job. If anything I get a bit of bump steer that I'm not used to in the WJ that the Moog is unable to flatten out (reminisces me to the days of my XJ and ZJ) but its okay because its a pretty tight feeling and no wobbles lets me know that all is well and tight.

98 XJ Sport | i6 | AW4 | 231 | Stone White | Agate Leather

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post #4174 of 6769 Old 06-08-2012, 07:18 AM
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reeeheeeeheeeealllllllly
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post #4175 of 6769 Old 06-08-2012, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisHager

Jim Carrey in Ace Ventura, Pet Detective?
Thank you, that's exactly how I wanted it to be interpreted

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post #4176 of 6769 Old 06-08-2012, 07:32 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by compcrasher86 View Post
reeeheeeeheeeealllllllly, I'll have to chew my roommate out on that one I was very hesitant about taking my SS off and I believed him because he generally knows what he's talking about. I trust your logic more though and it makes sense. I'll have to double check but I've never seen a SS on my buddy's WK. He doesnt get DW but his steering has been quite loose lately but thats a whole different story. Upgrading to the moog components over stock really made a great difference. I drove a stock WJ the other night and the steering felt sloppy in comparison to mine... I'm pretty happy with the investment.
reeeheeeeeeeeheeeeeeeeealllllllyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy! Hahaha. How do you put a SS on a steering setup like the WK has? I can't wait for the new stuff!


Quote:
Originally Posted by compcrasher86 View Post
Wobble... yes.. sportier, not really. Here are some tests to really feel the differences. Go hit some bridge expansion joints on the highway... you'll feel some nice stiff feedback in the wheels. Then on an empty abandoned safe road twitch the wheel left and right firmly (think autocross) but dont do anything near your Jeep's limits. Notice the response of the steering wheel as you change directions... its much more responsive. When I think sporty steering I think of a very tight, not too much assist (I think the Jeep steering (and mine is the earlier less assisted WJ steering) has too much assist) and no deadplay. When I hit a turn its not like toyota/lexus steering where I feel nothing in the wheel. I like a nice tug against what I'm doing. By the way you've heard it before I abhor newer Lexus/Toyota steering its completely numb.
Good, I want that wobble GONE. Yeah, get rid of that play in the steering wheel too! YES

So those new toyota's dont have any feedback, meaning you go over a bump and you feel nothing?

~ 04 WJ Overland 4.7 HO | Graphite Metallic | Quadra-Drive | Vari-Locks | Bilstein 4600ís | ADDCO Sway Bar | Powerstick Exhaust | RB1 | SuperChips Tuned | Much More to Come ~

~ 04 WJ Laredo 4.0 | Selec-Trac | MBP | OME HD 3" Lift | JKS TB | IRO Front LCA's and UCA's| Bilstein 5100's | Silent Armor 245/70/17's | Custom Front D.S. | Stillen Rotors/Pads | Tow Package w/ 3.73's | Moog HD Steering | Kenwood eXcelon HU | Alpine Speakers, Amps, and Subs | Bilstein SS | Auxiliary Transmission Cooler | Rock Lights | Light Bars | Lots of Cool Stuff ~

~ 05 Rubicon Unlimited 4.0 | 6-Speed | Dana 44's | Air Lockers | 4.11 Gears | Rock-Trac 241OR T-Case with 4:1 4-Low | OME HD Springs | Bilstein 5100ís | 245/75/16 Kevlar MT/R's on Moabs | Hansen Offroad Steel F/R Bumpers | Warn 9000xi Winch | Edge Performance Chip | Custom CAI | Hella Off-road Lights | Cobra 29 CB | Flash Lights | Recovery Gear | Fire Extinguisher ~

~ Snobrdrkid07's ~ Overland Build Thread ~ Blue WJ "Build" Thread ~ Jeep Videos ~ Fuelly ~WJ 4.0 Trans Aux Cooler Info ~



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post #4177 of 6769 Old 06-08-2012, 07:35 AM
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More like, they have way too much assist and not enough feedback. This is my experience driving a Lexus Rx330 for a month

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post #4178 of 6769 Old 06-08-2012, 07:39 AM Thread Starter
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Interesting, guess that is what the majority of the people wanted?

~ 04 WJ Overland 4.7 HO | Graphite Metallic | Quadra-Drive | Vari-Locks | Bilstein 4600ís | ADDCO Sway Bar | Powerstick Exhaust | RB1 | SuperChips Tuned | Much More to Come ~

~ 04 WJ Laredo 4.0 | Selec-Trac | MBP | OME HD 3" Lift | JKS TB | IRO Front LCA's and UCA's| Bilstein 5100's | Silent Armor 245/70/17's | Custom Front D.S. | Stillen Rotors/Pads | Tow Package w/ 3.73's | Moog HD Steering | Kenwood eXcelon HU | Alpine Speakers, Amps, and Subs | Bilstein SS | Auxiliary Transmission Cooler | Rock Lights | Light Bars | Lots of Cool Stuff ~

~ 05 Rubicon Unlimited 4.0 | 6-Speed | Dana 44's | Air Lockers | 4.11 Gears | Rock-Trac 241OR T-Case with 4:1 4-Low | OME HD Springs | Bilstein 5100ís | 245/75/16 Kevlar MT/R's on Moabs | Hansen Offroad Steel F/R Bumpers | Warn 9000xi Winch | Edge Performance Chip | Custom CAI | Hella Off-road Lights | Cobra 29 CB | Flash Lights | Recovery Gear | Fire Extinguisher ~

~ Snobrdrkid07's ~ Overland Build Thread ~ Blue WJ "Build" Thread ~ Jeep Videos ~ Fuelly ~WJ 4.0 Trans Aux Cooler Info ~



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post #4179 of 6769 Old 06-08-2012, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snobrdrkid07
Interesting, guess that is what the majority of the people wanted?
Something like that is numb to drive... It's easy. Toyota wants to make cars that are easy to drive, sounds appealing on paper, no? Whereas when you actually want to DRIVE the car hard and have fun the over assisted steering gets pretty old. When you come into a turn hard in a BMW (maybe not your moms so much because the newer BMWs focus on comfort more than driver feel) you feel a nice natural pressure (not a jerking because the linkage is tight) but just enough to remind you what you're doin. Now fun fact a lot of BMWs until just recently have been using recirculating ball steering just like our Jeeps do. But the steering in the WJs was designed around being comfortable and absorbing shock which is why we often get that loose feeling.

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post #4180 of 6769 Old 06-08-2012, 08:46 AM Thread Starter
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Gotcha. It does sound good on paper. But it really isn't driving like what you are saying. Mom's BMW has a really tight steering and you feel in compete control. It takes effort to turn that wheel and it does have feedback for sure. Its a very sporty type steering. When you are turning hard it takes that extra effort to keep it there.

~ 04 WJ Overland 4.7 HO | Graphite Metallic | Quadra-Drive | Vari-Locks | Bilstein 4600ís | ADDCO Sway Bar | Powerstick Exhaust | RB1 | SuperChips Tuned | Much More to Come ~

~ 04 WJ Laredo 4.0 | Selec-Trac | MBP | OME HD 3" Lift | JKS TB | IRO Front LCA's and UCA's| Bilstein 5100's | Silent Armor 245/70/17's | Custom Front D.S. | Stillen Rotors/Pads | Tow Package w/ 3.73's | Moog HD Steering | Kenwood eXcelon HU | Alpine Speakers, Amps, and Subs | Bilstein SS | Auxiliary Transmission Cooler | Rock Lights | Light Bars | Lots of Cool Stuff ~

~ 05 Rubicon Unlimited 4.0 | 6-Speed | Dana 44's | Air Lockers | 4.11 Gears | Rock-Trac 241OR T-Case with 4:1 4-Low | OME HD Springs | Bilstein 5100ís | 245/75/16 Kevlar MT/R's on Moabs | Hansen Offroad Steel F/R Bumpers | Warn 9000xi Winch | Edge Performance Chip | Custom CAI | Hella Off-road Lights | Cobra 29 CB | Flash Lights | Recovery Gear | Fire Extinguisher ~

~ Snobrdrkid07's ~ Overland Build Thread ~ Blue WJ "Build" Thread ~ Jeep Videos ~ Fuelly ~WJ 4.0 Trans Aux Cooler Info ~



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post #4181 of 6769 Old 06-08-2012, 09:25 PM Thread Starter
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I know it has been said that some people were having issues with their JKS TB Bushings being to soft when they werent cranked way down. I wonder if these would fit in the JKS bar as replacement or upgrade? I do not know much about them. IRO TB Bushings

~ 04 WJ Overland 4.7 HO | Graphite Metallic | Quadra-Drive | Vari-Locks | Bilstein 4600ís | ADDCO Sway Bar | Powerstick Exhaust | RB1 | SuperChips Tuned | Much More to Come ~

~ 04 WJ Laredo 4.0 | Selec-Trac | MBP | OME HD 3" Lift | JKS TB | IRO Front LCA's and UCA's| Bilstein 5100's | Silent Armor 245/70/17's | Custom Front D.S. | Stillen Rotors/Pads | Tow Package w/ 3.73's | Moog HD Steering | Kenwood eXcelon HU | Alpine Speakers, Amps, and Subs | Bilstein SS | Auxiliary Transmission Cooler | Rock Lights | Light Bars | Lots of Cool Stuff ~

~ 05 Rubicon Unlimited 4.0 | 6-Speed | Dana 44's | Air Lockers | 4.11 Gears | Rock-Trac 241OR T-Case with 4:1 4-Low | OME HD Springs | Bilstein 5100ís | 245/75/16 Kevlar MT/R's on Moabs | Hansen Offroad Steel F/R Bumpers | Warn 9000xi Winch | Edge Performance Chip | Custom CAI | Hella Off-road Lights | Cobra 29 CB | Flash Lights | Recovery Gear | Fire Extinguisher ~

~ Snobrdrkid07's ~ Overland Build Thread ~ Blue WJ "Build" Thread ~ Jeep Videos ~ Fuelly ~WJ 4.0 Trans Aux Cooler Info ~



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post #4182 of 6769 Old 06-09-2012, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snobrdrkid07
I know it has been said that some people were having issues with their JKS TB Bushings being to soft when they werent cranked way down. I wonder if these would fit in the JKS bar as replacement or upgrade? I do not know much about them. IRO TB Bushings
Wouldn't hurt to call and ask. Just make sure they come with sleeves
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post #4183 of 6769 Old 06-09-2012, 02:29 PM
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No. The IRO track bar bushings fit the IRO track bar and that's it. Kevin's Off Road has the high-durometer JKS TB bushings and 9/16" sleeve kit.
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post #4184 of 6769 Old 06-09-2012, 03:54 PM Thread Starter
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Bummer. They were so cheap. Kevins bushings are what? 70 dollars?

~ 04 WJ Overland 4.7 HO | Graphite Metallic | Quadra-Drive | Vari-Locks | Bilstein 4600ís | ADDCO Sway Bar | Powerstick Exhaust | RB1 | SuperChips Tuned | Much More to Come ~

~ 04 WJ Laredo 4.0 | Selec-Trac | MBP | OME HD 3" Lift | JKS TB | IRO Front LCA's and UCA's| Bilstein 5100's | Silent Armor 245/70/17's | Custom Front D.S. | Stillen Rotors/Pads | Tow Package w/ 3.73's | Moog HD Steering | Kenwood eXcelon HU | Alpine Speakers, Amps, and Subs | Bilstein SS | Auxiliary Transmission Cooler | Rock Lights | Light Bars | Lots of Cool Stuff ~

~ 05 Rubicon Unlimited 4.0 | 6-Speed | Dana 44's | Air Lockers | 4.11 Gears | Rock-Trac 241OR T-Case with 4:1 4-Low | OME HD Springs | Bilstein 5100ís | 245/75/16 Kevlar MT/R's on Moabs | Hansen Offroad Steel F/R Bumpers | Warn 9000xi Winch | Edge Performance Chip | Custom CAI | Hella Off-road Lights | Cobra 29 CB | Flash Lights | Recovery Gear | Fire Extinguisher ~

~ Snobrdrkid07's ~ Overland Build Thread ~ Blue WJ "Build" Thread ~ Jeep Videos ~ Fuelly ~WJ 4.0 Trans Aux Cooler Info ~



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post #4185 of 6769 Old 06-09-2012, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snobrdrkid07
Bummer. They were so cheap. Kevins bushings are what? 70 dollars?
If its going into a jks track bar it's about 100$
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